[Primer] PyroRed

[Alex]

Jund is not a good matchup for any Pyro list. If your opponent plays Reaper of the Wilds properly (aka: like an Aetherling) you honestly cannot beat the card.

[Valdarith]

This is true. Against Reaper your best hope is to go over the top with burn or under with a swarm of Pyromancer tokens. Don't keep a slow hand against Jund or you lose.

[Valdarith]

[deck=Valdarith's PyroBlack v2.0]
Creatures (20)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (19)
3 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Searing Blood
4 Dreadbore

Lands (21)
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
3 Swamp
10 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Devour Flesh
2 Doom Blade
3 Ultimate Price
4 Skullcrack
3 Satyr Nyx-Smith
[/deck]

I tested Pain Seer in place of Spike Jester, but I prefer the latter for free wins against a lot of decks. Pain Seer + Firedrinker Satyr was also painful at times.

Sideboard was thrown together. Devour Flesh is a concession to Naya Hexproof now being a thing.

[Valdarith]

Wow, this deck is REALLY good. I think I'm onto something here. Seriously. If you still want to play Young Pyromancer, this is the deck to do it with.

[Xanatos]

How's it play against the major players in Standard? You've piqued my interest!

[Tyrael]

Seems like G/R might be a hard matchup for you, am I wrong?

Other than that, great work once again Valdarith! I might steal your list if a lot of people in my game shop turn out to be switching back to aggro

Have you tested the Nyx-Smith yet? In my testing it seemed to perform really poorly vs UW, which is the matchup where I expected him to be good...

[Valdarith]

GR is easy. This isn't like RW where you only have Chained as an answer. You're running four Dreadbore main which is never a dead card, and 20 creatures with a low curve to pressure slow starts from control and midrange. Esper aggro and UWx control are favorable, especially the former. Mono black is favorable g1 and even afterward. I have yet to play mono blue but I would say it is slightly unfavorable g1 and even to slightly favorable postboard.

[Valdarith]

Also note that we are running Spike Jester which pushes right through Caryatid. This deck is much faster than RW so you steal a lot of matches against GR.

[Alex]

I would never want to play a deck like this in a world of mono black devotion. I was playing a version of the deck that was basically the same card-for-card, and you had no play against devotion lists of any kind. Xathrid Necromancer was the only card that made it even passable in those matchups, and even at that point every game was an uphill battle for me.

[Valdarith]

I'm not sure why. Could you expand upon that?

[Alex]

They play better quality cards than you do, and are just as good at one for one'ing as you.

The only thing you can do to beat a resolved Desecration Demon is to hope to find either 2 Lightning Strikes before it grows, or 1 Dreadbore. In my list, with Xathrid, I could feed my creatures to it for a rather numerable amount of turns, but if I didn't draw that Dreadbore while I bled creatures, I still lost. What does your deck do in this scenario if you aren't already holding those cards? They can take a bit of a beating as long as Gray Merchant comes around eventually, so racing them isn't the answer, and without having a way to beat DD you are not favored at all.

Beyond that, the deck also folds to mono U, which can block most of these creatures indefinitely out of the board.




In a world with GR monsters everywhere, you want to be able to go bigger, not outrace them. Sure, they can play a Polykranos, but that
doesn't mean much in the face of a deck with good removal and a threat they can't answer.

[Alex]

Also, don't take my words as "Your deck is shitty and I think it's bad." I played a very similar list a few months ago. But things have changed and now isn't the time for a hyper aggressive deck. A big part of deckbuilding is knowing when you're the rock, scissor, or paper.

[Valdarith]

Agree to disagree.

[Valdarith]

I think your point about mono black is fair though. That's why I prefer next leveling them and siding out creatures for burn. We don't do it as well as RW but we have better answers to creatures than they do.

To that end, Nyx-Smith should be Toil / Trouble and there should be four of them.

[Alex]

I can't imagine there being a deck that doesn't just want to play Ultimate Price and Stormbreath Dragon right now.

[BrainsickHater]

@Alex I think you're looking at this RB vs MB matchup in the wrong way. We don't have to answer their Desecration Demon. One of the options in the deck is to answer the demon when they play it, but that's not our only option. I think what is more common is that we put the MB deck in a position where they need the demon to block, and we just sac it into it to tap it and make the Demon useless. You make it sound as if beating the demon means killing it, but the text on the card is very relevant; it allows the card to be beaten even when it stays on the battlefield.

I think this deck's MB matchup looks good. We can go under them very easily and overload their removal which will cost as much or more than our dudes. With Young Pyromancer we can keep Demons tapped down for more than enough turns, and Spike Jester matches up well against nightveil specter.

Against any and all devotion decks, this deck seems very
good. It puts them under pressure while neutering their devotion with a plethora of spot removal.

I think this deck looks sweet, although the sideboard needs work.

[Valdarith]

It's worse than it was because postboard Drown along with maindeck Bile Blight is much better against Young Pyromancer, but the matchup should still be favorable. I've played builds without him and still had success with ssimilar builds.

[BrainsickHater]

Young Pyromancer makes the deck better than most against such sweepers because you can force a sweeper while only having one real creature on the table

[Alex]

@Alex I think you're looking at this RB vs MB matchup in the wrong way. We don't have to answer their Desecration Demon. One of the options in the deck is to answer the demon when they play it, but that's not our only option. I think what is more common is that we put the MB deck in a position where they need the demon to block, and we just sac it into it to tap it and make the Demon useless. You make it sound as if beating the demon means killing it, but the text on the card is very relevant; it allows the card to be beaten even when it stays on the battlefield.

I think this deck's MB matchup looks good. We can go under them very easily and overload their removal which will cost as much or more than our dudes. With Young Pyromancer we can keep
Demons tapped down for more than enough turns, and Spike Jester matches up well against nightveil specter.

Against any and all devotion decks, this deck seems very good. It puts them under pressure while neutering their devotion with a plethora of spot removal.

I think this deck looks sweet, although the sideboard needs work.

That's fine in theory, but I encourage you to prove me wrong in practice.

Devotion decks aren't as slow as a lot of you seem to believe. They have a lot of tools to kill early threats, including but not limited to Bile Blight, Mutavaults, Ultimate Price, Drown in Sorrow, etc. You aren't asking questions that they can't answer, and when building a deck you want to be doing exactly that.

[Tyrael]

Hey Valdarith, do you think your new Pyroblack brew would be the deck to play in a meta dominated by mono red aggro? 16 out of the 24 people that participated at the saturday tourney today were playing some Rx variant and the Rakdos Seer build I devised kinda got crushed by them...

Rest of the meta were a bit of G/R, UWx control, mono B and some heroic home brews.

PS: I know I could just go mono blue and steamroll through them but that deck is just so ughhhh

[Valdarith]

Absolutely. You're maindecking 19 removal spells against them and running Phoenix and Pyromancer for value. Postboard you take out Firedrinker Satyr and a couple of Cacklers for more terminates. You can even get cute and bring in Skullcrack for more Phoenix recursion.

[Tyrael]

Great, I'll start working on the sideboard then since the MB seems to be optimal already .

[deck] SB[/deck]

This is what I'd play, I think. I'd rather play MM over Devour Flesh since it is useful in so many matchups. I also don't like opponents gaining life in a deck that's so reliant on burn spells to finish the job.

PS: Do you ever have issues with color screw? Playing Jester with only 11 black sources seems like trouble.

[Valdarith]

Not really. I don't HAVE to have Jester on t2 all the time, but it's nice when it happens, which is a lot more often than not.

[Tyrael]

Fair enough

I'd love to play Dark Betrayal SB but I can't find the room for it. I think that would seriously shore up the mono B matchup.

1st world problems!

[Valdarith]

Just run them instead of Mizzium Mortars. You're hardly ever going to overload it for value and your other terminate effects give you the same effect. You don't have to worry about the black mana since you won't usually be casting them on curve.

[Tyrael]

Don't we need Mortars for Blood Baron? Or do you just double burn it?

Also, I think Alex might have been on to something when he complained about the lack of big finishers

I might try to fit in 1-2 Exava or Vexing Phoenixes

Also, I'm gonna run 2-3 Reckoners SB, he's just too good vs aggro

[Link]

Wow, this deck is REALLY good. I think I'm onto something here. Seriously. If you still want to play Young Pyromancer, this is the deck to do it with.

You mean the deck nuwens been playing with for literally half a year now?

=/


You need thoughtseizes in the SB. Dark Betrayal is also awesome.


Ultimate price is pretty iffy, you can just run more doom blades to deal with mono blue.

[Tyrael]

[deck] Pyroblack[/deck]

SB might be a mess, but I tried to make it as anti-aggro as possible without forfeiting our favorable control matchup (hence the flyers)... The extra vault might just be too greedy though.

Thoughts?

Also: Ash Zealot vs Jester?

[Valdarith]

Wow, this deck is REALLY good. I think I'm onto something here. Seriously. If you still want to play Young Pyromancer, this is the deck to do it with.

You mean the deck nuwens been playing with for literally half a year now?

=/


You need thoughtseizes in the SB. Dark Betrayal is also awesome.


Ultimate price is pretty iffy, you can just run more doom blades to deal with mono blue.

I haven't seen any list remotely like this besides mine. Have I overlooked something?

I don't like Thoughtseize here. I prefer more proactive cards that are better topdecks. I
played Thoughtseize in these kinds of decks for awhile and when I removed it from the board my win percentages went up significantly enough to justify the exclusion.

I'm sure it works fine for you, but keep in mind that we hardly ever agree on much because our playstyles are dramatically different.

[Valdarith]

Spike Jester is better than Ash Zealot here because the extra point of power helps push through Caryatid and the RB cost actually makes him more manageable to cast. Opening hands with a Swamp and any red source are now easily kept.

[Valdarith]

It's also immune to Doom Blade and Ultimate Price and if you're on the play does two more damage over two turns than Ash Zealot against control most of the time.

[Link]

Spike Jester is better than Ash Zealot here because the extra point of power helps push through Caryatid and the RB cost actually makes him more manageable to cast. Opening hands with a Swamp and any red source are now easily kept.

I'm pretty sure I can post exact quotes of you saying you used ash zealot of spike jester and me and nuwen arguing that spike jester was more power.


The only reason you haven't seen lists is because we didn't post a new one for BotG...because the deck literally only got scsrylands (which is a huge deal ofc, but not big enough to g HEY LOOK AT THIS NEW LIST)

[Tyrael]

Fair enough

By the way, does it really matter who thought of something first?

[Link]

Basically the Rakdos Carnage thread in the Clan forums.


Definitely glad you took up the deck looking forward to hearing results with it


I like thoughtseize because this deck is mostly about landing a spike jester/phoenix/w/e and then cleaering the way for them. You don't need to flood hte board, you don't need to rush T5 kill, you just have great cards.


And thoughtseize is the greatest card. youre paying 2 mana for a reactive card that only kills mono colored/non black creatures.... why not pay ONE mana for a reactive card (that you can play BEFORe they play anything) that deals with EVERY CARD in the format including blood baron which can still take dumps on your deck?


Its just too not good to not include.... after playing it 6 months Nuwen agrees thats its key. The scrylands for increased threat densite are pretty sweet too.

Only thing I'm concerned about is the guildgates...why does mana still have
to be so hard =/

[Link]

also this is your post Vala too:

1) Not having Ash Zealot in the deck is criminal. She's the third best card in my deck behind Chandra and Exava.
2) I really don't think Pmoney has a place here. I'm in love with the card, but I REALLY value the hasty dudes in my deck when I go into topdeck mode, which happens a lot against midrange. I'd much rather topdeck an Ash Zealot than Pmoney.
3) I've been wanting a little more reach in my deck and Firedrinker Satyr is the card to get there. I have to drop some hasty dudes to fit him in, but I feel like the extra set of one-drops plus the reach he provides will win me more games than the haste keyword on a Shred-Freak.
4) Dark Betrayal is a big reason to want to play black with Obzedat and Desecration
Demon having such a large presence in the meta.
5) I thnik you'll find Mizzium Mortars in the side to be too much. Doom Blade and Dreadbore plus first striking Ash Zealot and Exava are more than enough to deal with midrange strategies. I'd rather play Shock to hedge against the aggro mirror. In fact I've tweaked my sideboard to do just that.
6) I'm not sold on Peak Eruption and Rakdos's Return. I'd rather play Duress or Thoughtseize against control and the only time I want to play Peak Eruption is against red midrange decks and we have enough answers for them already.

Oh how far we've come ;D

[Tyrael]

Now I'm sad I can't access the clan forums

[Link]

Fair enough

By the way, does it really matter who thought of something first?

Matters as much as anything with regard to recognition matters.


Im just of the opinion that since it takes so much time/effort to be recognized in magic (aka winning enough events that are like 1/2k people shot in winning) that when you DO spend a lot of time on a deck it should at least be remembered, especially withih the same forum and clan. Like I'm not lurking over on MTGSalvation and going WELL YOU GUYS DIDNT THINK OF THIS LIST FIRST HERES PROOF, this is literally the same forum and Valadarith
has even posted in the other thread so theres little excuse outside brain fart (which is fine, like I'm not actually upset or anything).

Just like when that guy who top8d an SCG/GP in Miami with Pyromancer list credited MDU and Zeman for their work on the lists... its just appropriate. Give some credit where credit is due

The entire list was originally Zeman's though, we just took it and splashed black instead of white and tried to force it from there (the mana was awful but now its not so yay)

[Link]

also I missed it the first time but there's no way you can argue devour flesh is better than Thoughtseize Vala. The potential upside of a 2-1 against hexproof isn't that great when you can just thoughtseize to destroy their draw (their mana base is slow and shitty as shit) and crush them. Not to mention how versatile it is in other match-ups.

Hell there's been an arguemnt for maindecking it and we've toyed with playing it over Firedrinker sSatyr (and movign him to the SB) but that's really just a meta call.

[Tyrael]

Fate, are you guys still playing a few guildgates? The mana seems a bit unstable without them...

Does this deck still need a big finisher like SBD according to you guys? I'd love to get a bit of fb about the archetype as a whole from you as I currently cannot access the clan forums

Thanks in advance!

[Jack]

Nuwen got plenty of recognition for that deck. It was "Nuwen's list" when Theros just came out, still "Nuwen's list" to us after it did something at a GP, and I'll think of that deck whenever I see some red black low curve aggro deck with RTR and Theros cards. But I don't remember her list using Pyromancers and Phoenixes. Or maybe you're talking about a different deck than I have in mind.