[Primer] Boros Burn

[zemanjaski]

Double Satyr Firedancer vs Mono U = lol.

[Rjayz]

What's the alternative to Burning Earth if it doesn't fit my meta? Can you still slot in Spark Trooper?

[zemanjaski]

Yeah obviously.

[RedDeckWinning]

Hello Everyone! RedDeckWinning is in the house

I haven't had time yet to read through the entire thread, but obviously several of us have been discussing this deck on Facebook for the last several weeks and I've been playtesting various versions of RW Burn through some 60-80 games on Cockatrice.

I got a chance to take Zemanjaski's build to my Tuesday Win-A-Box tournament in Madison, WI last night. Sadly only went 2-2 (still good for packs which was nice), but the losses were close and were losses for some obvious reasons. Overall, I was impressed at how this build felt much better than previous ones I had worked with, and the play of the deck seemed to translate between my games on Cockatrice and this tournament (which rarely happens it seems). For reference, while the 2-2 might have been reflective of me playing the deck inappropriately (who knows), the competition in my city is extremely fierce. Madison has
more top 100 players (in the world) per capita than probably any other place, and everyone plays tier 1 decks or brews designed to beat them for the most part. So local "simple" tourneys often feel like PTQs.

For reference, the list-

RW Burn by James Fazzolari (aka Zemanjaski)

4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix

4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Searing Blood
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
3 Warleader's Helix

2 Chained to the Rocks

1 Boros Guildgate
4 Mutavault
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
10 Mountain

Sideboard
4 Firedrinker Satyr
3 Spark Trooper
3 Satyr Firedancer
3 Viashino Firstblade
2 Chained to the Rocks

Round 1 vs Esper Control

I played against Madison who is one of our good local players and has top 8'd States and a few PTQs. Early into the match I could see that I already liked this build of RW Burn a lot more. I opened into Ash Zealot and some Mutavaults, Burn and Chandra's Phoenix, and felt a million miles ahead the entire time.
He didn't see Supreme Verdict, but even Jace felt much less threatening with the sheer amount of threats I had going and the variety of angles they were attacking from. Took this match 2-0 and it didn't feel close at any point in time. As much as i'd like Toil // Trouble in the sideboard (really wasn't impressed by Viashino Firstblade), I'm not sure how much sideboard help is needed on top of the Firedrinkers. UW has given me tough matches on Cockatrice, so it may depend on their sideboard plan, but at least for one night it went well.

1-0

Round 2 vs BR Midrange

This round was against Andy, one of my carmates for PTQs who has been playing his own brew of BR Midrange for months. His deck features Young Pyromancer, Thoughseize, Lots of Burn, Chandra, and Desecration Demon. It went about as imagined, the games were close and played very tight. I took game 1, followed by him taking game 2 after a devastating Rakdos's Return into a Chandra. I knew going into the match that I was probably a
dog since Rakdos's Return and Chandra are just absolutely some of the best cards for a mirror like this. Game 2 I brought in Spark Trooper on the off-chance that he tapped out and didn't expect it, but my hand ultimately got wittled down to the point where I just had to cast it before that opportunity presented itself and it was met with instant speed removal. Game 3 we battled for a long time, I plowed through two Chandras (one killed, one active), and ultimately it got down to a hairy situation with him at 3 life but he was able to land an unanswered Desecration Demon on the turn he needed to take the win from me. He went on to win the tournament.

1-1

Round 3 vs RW Burn (Mirror)

My good buddy Ryan was playing his own version of the deck, with mostly the same cards except that he was running four maindeck Firedinkers, no Ash Zealots, and no Chains (or possibly some board). I killed him pretty handily in game 1 by just drawing all the right burn, and things looked good in game 2 until an
unanswered Chandra took over with him at one life. Game 3 we both boarded in Spark Troopers on that "off chance tapout" and I made the stupid mistake of being the one to tap out for an early Chandra's Phoenix. He was able to then land his Spark Trooper for full damage and was way ahead at that point, taking the match.

1-2

Round 4 vs Esper Midrange (Mihara's build)

The last round was against a new local player Ricki. He had just gotten smoked a few rounds earlier by my buddy Ryan from the last round, and I knew that Burn could be good against him, but I also knew that the Esper Midrange deck is aggressive and has Obzedat. Game 1 he was stuck on lands early and I was able to beat him down with triple Ash Zealot into burn for all of the precinct captains he tried to play to stabilize. Searing Blood shined like an all-star in this matchup, it often put him on the severe back foot and he never really could amount an offense. Game 2 was very close, with me getting close to the win until
he was able to get an active Brimaz that I couldn't deal with after playing double detention sphere, Ephara, and Heliod. Game 3 was very similar, except I was able to play a Spark Trooper who trampled over for 1 damage over his Ephara to leave him at 4 life, and was then able to burn him out with a Warleader's Helix that was in my hand. He was stuck on 4 lands at the end with double Obzedat in hand

2-2

Future Thoughts:

I really liked Ash Zealot, Vault, Phoenix, and the Burn Suite. I think the sideboard needs adjustment, but obviously that will depend on tournament size and matchups. I liked Justin's suggestion of Blind Obedience, and I think I want Chandra in the sideboard because I feel like it's more applicable to a wider field than Viashino Firstblade and possibly even Toil // Trouble. Chandra is not "as good" in this deck because there are no creatures to defend her, but her ultimate is actually
very relevant and she gets back Phoenix on a regular basis which can be very important. I'm waffling on whether or not I want the fourth Warleader's Helix. I really liked Firedrinker out of the board, I'm still not sold on Satyr Firedancer, but I haven't played enough games against the matchups where he's good to be sure of my opinion on that. He looks insane against Mono Blue and GR, but I think he might be a waste of a sideboard slot that could go to something better. I could be completely wrong.

This deck actually felt like it didn't need Chained to the Rocks much, but it was important versus the decks that I did need it against. I'm not sure if I want Mortars or not, there's definitely matchups where I feel like I do want it, however it's often for creatures that come down so late I feel like I can still race them half the time. I think playtesting this deck for some obscene amount of games against UW Control post-sideboard would dictate which direction is correct. Same with BW
Midrange or the Esper Midrange deck.

Thoughts?

[zemanjaski]

Awesome notes mate, and wonderful to have you on board.

I liked two chained main in an open meta, but you've got to be sensitive to your own environment. Obviously if you're expecting control, Shock is much better against the field.

I like the idea of 1 Chandra in the board, I will try that. Rebuying Phoenix or just threatening to ultimate and forcing them to act seems good, and she is randomly good against some decks, like Red Sligh, GW Littlekid or Mono U. Like you said, her ultimate is an instant-win in this deck.

Viashino is the best anti-control card we have. Trust me. I battled 8 rounds of esper at GP Melbourne, beating three pros playing Esper (losing once, in the feature, in a match I was winning that turn...due to Viashino...).

One thing I have noticed is that the deck really walks a fine line; it is extremely skill testing. There is some chance that with a bit more familiarity with the deck, those
small losses would be small wins. I have a lot of narrow wins myself; pulling off some freaky ones at the GP (3 land in play, no white source; upkeep Magma Jet to find white, play it, Boros Charm for lethal etc).

Blind Obedience has been extremely good from my testing. I am very happy with 2 in the 75.

[zenbitz]

Probably the best thing about shock is that you can kill a 4/4 (or even a 5/5) with only 3 mana and no boros charm/fire dancer. Although maybe you lose those games anyway.

Like I said 3 pages back, it's very hard to keep Chandra alive.... gives full value for Hero's DF, Dreadbore, D-sphere. Those would normally kill a zealot or phoenix.

[zemanjaski]

Chandra isn't the worst idea, she is reasonable against ANY control deck, whereas Burning Earth is really only good vs. the 3-colour ones.

[Jonnymagic]

Ive tested BE alot vs control and 3 color decks, and we actually have the chance to lose a lot of life from the card as well. Generally its not an issue, but I cant tell you how many games ive won with this deck with less than 3 life. I don't know that it is the best for this deck. I have liked chandra, but with all the g/r I can't get rid of ol Sparky bc he is such a slam dunk vs g/r and mono u. I REALLY want to run BE but I don't know its the best for this version of red in particular with only 8-9 basics.

[calebjmr]

I know I'm the new guy, but I thought I'd add a little more to the discussion from my grinding last night.

Burning Earth - I feel like it was a little unnecessary, and even detrimental. 3 Mana, not necessarily an immediate impact/reward card. With 4 Mutavaults, 4 Sacred Foundries, 4 Temple of Triumph--If I wanted to play Helix (which that wasn't such a big deal), Boros Charm, Viashino/Sparktrooper (also not bad with spark trooper) I was always taking unnecessary damage, and I really don't think it is necessary against U/x Control. Satyr Firedrinker seemed plenty powerful in the matchup. When I take the damage to do extra damage it is on my terms, and he synergizes with Boros Charm for a little extra value where applicable. I can see the argument that it is easier in this meta to remove a [card]Satyr Firedrinker[/card:
jeajmb1w] than a Burning Earth but I'd rather tap out for a T3 [card]Chandra's Phoenix[/card] over a T3 BE.

Blind Obedience - I am a big fan of this change to the point I think it deserves two in the main deck. With no shocks, we have no one drop burn--and with this deck I think we need to focus on creating the largest gap possible as fast as possible, and +1 life for me and -1 for my opponent seems strong in conjunction with burn. Boros charm does 4+1 damage now, and I gain a little boost. As far as mana efficiency, using it 4 times (highly reasonable) nets the same return as a helix to the face. Has the same mana to damage/healing ratio as helix too and gains consistency by triggering off any card period. It is important to note that this nerfs their MP2 blocker plays, flashing in Boon Satyr or Advent of the Worm blockers as well as nerfing fringe aggro/haste
decks, makes Viashino Firstblade and/or Spark Trooper a dead card in the mirror.

Shock - I think we're all in agreement that this card isn't fantastic. I never have it when it matters, and in this meta currently it rarely helps you make a game changing play. Two damage is two damage, but I think something better could go here. Shoot, I mean, I'd rather use [card]Titan's Strength[/card] than shock.

[card]Toil // Trouble[/card] - I don't miss it, again--I don't think control match ups are a weakness at all with Satyr Firedrinker. My personal match up weaknesses are Jund/Gruul Monsters and Mono Black. Mono black is usually up to when they get Desecration Demon. If they have Pack Rat they're discarding most of their stuff anyway and I feel like
this is gimmicky at best vs Monsters.

[card]Chandra's Outrage[/card] - I think this has some applications in this deck or side board, albeit a very expensive card--it gives us an answer to Stormbreath Dragon Courser of Kruphix Blood Baron of Vizkopa, and nearly anything with an active Fire Dancer. Chandra's Outrage (4 Damage to Creature) + 2 Damage to Player + Fire Dancer = 6 Damage to creature, 2 Damage to player. Even without Fire Dancer it seems decent--just a less efficient Searing Blood.

Chandra, Pyromaster - I think this definitely needs real consideration, because at worst she is a damage/card soak and at best she is some much needed acceleration. If they don't deal with her, we ult and win--if they do, they're a card down and possibly (hopefully) mana short for a different threat.


I know I am new here, but I
hope I've contributed something! I think this deck has potential, but just needs fine tuned.

[PrimalBurn]

Wow Im gone for a day and the post blow up! Good to see all this discussion on the deck and also excited to see RedDeckWinning joining the group as I am also a fan of his site Last season I got bad about switching between decks too often and not sticking with it and learning matchups. All this is really inspiring and making me want to stick it out with this deck. Keep it up guys

[RedDeckWinning]

@Calebjmr - I don't think Chandra's Outrage is a terrible idea, it's been on my reconsideration list for a while. Local pro and Starcity writer Adrian Sullivan used it in his successful RW Midrange deck a few months ago as a 1 or 2-of out of the board. Granted, he was running Mortars as well but it was a nice addition. It can come in to deal with Stormbreath, Archangel, and Blood Baron and it acts as a 5th functional Searing Blood. I'm not sure if it belongs but worth trying.

@Others - I'm curious how many of you are trying out different land bases. The original variation of this archetype ran 22 land and 8 scry lands, the Sullivan/Nelson versions ran 24 land and 8 scry, and Zemanjaski runs 23 land and 4 vault / 4 Scry. I played with the Sullivan Nelson version for a long time and I really liked the extra digging power and greater access to white mana. Others who've played the deck also don't like some of
the "runs out of gas" moments that the new version can have. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely think Zemanjaski made the right decision to run 4 vaults and I will be doing so going forward, but I wonder if there's room for 2 temples, perhaps in place of boros guildgate and a single mountain or a maindeck card. My friend Ryan at my shop was only running 21 lands, so there's other directions as well. Flooding seems bad with this deck.

One reason Zemanjaski mentioned for not running temple of silence was due to being able to play ash zealot on time, but I lost 1 or 2 games last night because I was missing white mana. Granted, we have Magma Jet to dig too, but this just reminds me of the original manabase for RW devotion which I always felt was inconsistent.

Oh and yes @Zemanjasi - I do think it's a very skill intensive deck. Good thing most of us here are probably well experienced mages
Thoughts?

[Chma]

Courser of Kruphix, while a problematic life gainer also lets you know exactly what to play around. Playing around the bounce part of far//away when using searing blood hadn't come up for me before and I would surely have played into it. Instead, using 3(!) searing blood on a courser in the opponents upkeep when I know his/her only card is far//away, dealing 6 and getting back my phoenix for exactsies on my following turn feels nice. And since Courser showed me the duress top deck to come I knew I had to go for it, and I knew it was a 100% safe play

I just came home from an after work, so one 2-man is enough for tonight. But I like every iteration of the deck more than the last. I love the [card]blind obedience[/card:
1drqj12c] and I would like to try it in the main, but I feel like I should stick to playing the lists people put work in until I've put my time into it.

[calebjmr]

This is what I am taking to my LGS tonight, seeing as I've had very consistent success with it since tweaking it out this morning.
I think this is very close. Any last minute input before I head out to my games? As it stands the only thing I'm scared of is Jund Monsters--I think I got a little better game versus Gruul now.

[deck]
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Charm
3 Chandra's Outrage
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Searing Blood
3 Skullcrack
2 Chained to the Rocks
3 Warleader's Helix
2 Blind Obedience

4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
4 Sacred Foundry
9 Mountain


1 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Firedrinker Satyr
3 Satyr Firedancer
3 Viashino Firstblade
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Spark Trooper
[/deck]

[Mr. Metronome]

Not sure how to board with the new addition of Blind Obedience. I've been bringing it in in a lot of matchups but it usually ends up doing ~2 damage, what matchups is it meant for?

[zemanjaski]

Updated decklist.

[deck=Zemanjaski's Boros Burn as at 06-March-14]
Creatures
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Enchantments
2 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
3 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
2 Blind Obedience
2 Burning Earth
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Satyr Firedancer
4 Viashino Firstblade
[/deck]

[zemanjaski]

Not sure how to board with the new addition of Blind Obedience. I've been bringing it in in a lot of matchups but it usually ends up doing ~2 damage, what matchups is it meant for?

GR Monsters, Rx Devotion or Aggro, BW Midrange, RW Burn.

[Khaospawn]

Not sure how to board with the new addition of Blind Obedience. I've been bringing it in in a lot of matchups but it usually ends up doing ~2 damage, what matchups is it meant for?

GR Monsters, Rx Devotion or Aggro, BW Midrange, RW Burn.

I'm assuming that the typical plan is: -4, Ash Zealot, -4 Skullcrack, +4 Firedancer, +2 Chained to the Rocks, +2 Blind Obedience (?)

How are you dealing with dragons? Just hoping that you have 2 burn spells or Firedancer + Charm?

[Elricity]

4th firstblade definitely makes sense. I had the same experience with that card being good and was wonder how it got cut to 3.

A bit curious myself if you want to bring in the 4th dancer vs GR or try to slip in Chandra to bridge the gap on the burn spells. Z's original concern was that back to back dancers was slow for that matchup.

[elkayser]

i miss some can you explain how to side vs different match up with the new version of the deck?

[DXI-Edge]

Not sure how to board with the new addition of Blind Obedience. I've been bringing it in in a lot of matchups but it usually ends up doing ~2 damage, what matchups is it meant for?

GR Monsters, Rx Devotion or Aggro, BW Midrange, RW Burn.

I'm assuming that the typical plan is: -4, Ash Zealot, -4 Skullcrack, +4 Firedancer, +2 Chained to the Rocks, +2 Blind Obedience (?)

How are you dealing with dragons?
Just hoping that you have 2 burn spells or Firedancer + Charm?

Deal with it?

Dude. Race it!

sometimes the key to winning with this deck is looking at your hand and taking the risk of going down to 2 vs. monsters and saying "I'm just gonna burn your face and win."

but yes, thats the plan I have vs. them. Also, against Jund Im going to try taking out 1 Shock and 1 Magma Jet for 2 Burning Earth

Questions I have:

Zeman, I see you did end up taking the 2nd chandra for the 4th Firstblade? How has that been working for you?

Against BW Midrange, is -2 Chained, -2 Shock and -2 Searing Blood for +2 Blind Obedience, +4 Viashino Firstblade good? And if so, is taking out the 3rd shock for the Chandra an option vs. them? I think so as a lot of them are taking out Hero's Downfall vs. us, making Firstblade and Chandra SO much better.

Is UW/Bant the harder control matchup for us? Esper seems like the easiest which is nice considering its becoming the most popular

[Elricity]

Taking a stab at this:

2 Blind Obedience (hasty nonsense, big midrange blockers)
2 Burning Earth (3 color)
2 Chained to the Rocks (big monsters that it can hit)
1 Chandra, Pyromaster (control, weenies)
4 Satyr Firedancer (creatures, preferably without heavy removal)
4 Viashino Firstblade (stuff without big creatures)

Figure it out from there?

Khaos, yeah you just have a dancer deal with the dragons or you try to ignore it. Get a BO in play and you can ignore it for an extra turn.

[zenbitz]

Not sure how to board with the new addition of Blind Obedience. I've been bringing it in in a lot of matchups but it usually ends up doing ~2 damage, what matchups is it meant for?

GR Monsters, Rx Devotion or Aggro, BW Midrange, RW Burn.

Would you run it against random white heroic/enchantment decks? I mean, Not sure we need anything for them but they aren't unpopular at my LGS.

[Elricity]

What does bringing in their creatures tapped help with? Is the game long enough to use extort?

-4 Ash Zealots (because they're doing nothing against suited up guys)
-2 Searing Blood (because they're doing almost nothing against suited up guys)
+2 chains (because they do a lot against suited up guys)
+4 dancer (because, in multiples, they can do a lot against suited up guys)

[PrimalBurn]

so much wisdom I am not worthy

[Khaospawn]

Not sure how to board with the new addition of Blind Obedience. I've been bringing it in in a lot of matchups but it usually ends up doing ~2 damage, what matchups is it meant for?

GR Monsters, Rx Devotion or Aggro, BW Midrange, RW Burn.

I'm
assuming that the typical plan is: -4, Ash Zealot, -4 Skullcrack, +4 Firedancer, +2 Chained to the Rocks, +2 Blind Obedience (?)

How are you dealing with dragons? Just hoping that you have 2 burn spells or Firedancer + Charm?

Deal with it?

Dude. Race it!

I guess I must be the only one here who's dealt with Dragons on the field and nothing but Chained to the Rocks in hand.


It's possible I just had a shitty game for that one.

[zemanjaski]

No, but it still isn't a relevant consideration. You don't always have to kill every creature your opponent plays.

[Self Medicated]

What does bringing in their creatures tapped help with?

Depends on the deck you're playing against. I could be lazy and just say it controls tempo, but I will be specific. Haste is rendered useless (sucks for aggro), and you get an extra turn to deal with whatever has just entered the battlefield. Against BW, it makes Obzedat, Elspeth, and Lifebane Zombie not as scary. You also won't have to deal with your opponent generating a Pack Rat token during combat to block. Against GR, Boon Satyr, Stormbreath Dragon, Mistcutter Hydra, etc. are all taken down a peg. If your opponent doesn't have a way to deal with it, Blind Obedience can ruin their day.

[DriftingLifted]

Stormbreath Dragon, and Xenegos the God are big ones, since Blind Obedience was originally targetting G/r. I'll happily take something that stops a Polukranos coming down and immediately swinging for 10.

Also great against something like Rakdos Aggro, nearly every one of their draws is hastey. Fringe deck, but it's one of the few I found that can reliably race us, it can sometimes just come down to who draws more gas or went first.

[DXI-Edge]

No, but it still isn't a relevant consideration. You don't always have to kill every creature your opponent plays.

Bingo

In fact, I really only kill creatures if

a) its going to kill me next turn
b) its going to gain my opponent insane card advantage and allow them to possibly win faster than me
c) its going to gain them more than 2 life, causing them to extend their game by more than 1 turn (and effectively removing a lightning strike from my deck)
d) Satyr Firedancer is laughing at their faces while punching them

other than that, they can sit there and attack me all they want. I can count to 20!

[Khaospawn]

Welp, I guess hoping to kill the Dragon that was going to kill me next turn was just the wrong play, I guess....

[Khaospawn]

But for what it's worth, I asked the Dragon question to Zem since I don't know if R/g Monsters is as big online as it is in paper in my meta. I wondered if it's an issue that warrants answering, not a beginner's question such as "what do I do if my opponent plays a Stormbreath Dragon on me!?" I found myself wishing I had access to Mortars a few times during the R/g match and the R/W to stave off certain death.

[Jonnymagic]

Honestly, the only 2 creatures that I HAVE to deal with or just lose are archangel and daddy council. Fated conflag is the only one that deals with both, and just doesn't work in this deck cuz it only kills creatures. I so wish it hit players too =/.

[Khaospawn]

Fortunately, the Helix deals with the angel. Ghost Dad is another story.

[zemanjaski]

GR Monsters isn't popular online. Truth be told, the deck is VERY bad, but paper magic is behind online by two weeks, as usual.

UW Control > Esper Control

MBC with Bile Blight > MBC without Bile Blight

Then GR goes away.

[Jonnymagic]

Zem, I dont know how you keep dodging the G/R matchup. Every daily I play in I play 1 or 2. It sucks, lol. How have you fared vs u/w without the satyr?

[zemanjaski]

Faced it once, won.

Could be time zones or rating that are helping me dodge it I suppose.

[zemanjaski]

Finals of an 8-man:

Zem: "Hi! Split?"
Opp: "No, thank you. I can beat burn"

Zem wins 2-0.

[DriftingLifted]

Hope this was recorded

[Elricity]

Depends on the deck you're playing against. I could be lazy and just say it controls tempo, but I will be specific. Haste is rendered useless (sucks for aggro), and you get an extra turn to deal with whatever has just entered the battlefield. Against BW, it makes Obzedat, Elspeth, and Lifebane Zombie not as scary. You also won't have to deal with your opponent generating a Pack Rat token during combat to block. Against GR, Boon Satyr, Stormbreath Dragon, Mistcutter Hydra, etc. are all taken down a peg. If your opponent doesn't have a way to deal with it, Blind Obedience can
ruin their day.

I was specifically responding to the question right above mine of whether it's good vs uw heroic and indirectly stating why I think it's not.

[zemanjaski]

Hope this was recorded

Nah. I am just grinding and testing right now. Will be recording this weekend though.