Fire and Ice Mafia - Game Over!

[Kazekirimaru]

Vote Count 19!
You spoony scum.

Stardust (1) - Wraith223
zemanjaski (3) - DroppinSuga, Stardust, imopen2
Void (0)
Wraith223 (0)
Fate (0)
RedNihilist (0)
DroppinSuga (3) - ( G_R ), rezombad, Fate
Manders (0)
rezombad (0)
(G_R) (1) - Void
imopen2 (0)

Not Voting (3) - RedNihilist, zemanjaski, Manders

With 11 alive, it is 6 to lynch.

Deadline is: 16 February, 2014 11:59PM EST

[Manders]

Hooray vote count!

On that note, I suppose I'll go ahead and

Vote: Zemanjaski

Oh, I'm also not sold on Void or imopen2 for scum. I've got a lot of thinking to do.

[RedNihilist]

After re-reading the thread and long thought, I think stardust is serious scum. I will try very hard to make this clear as possible.
1. Stardust claims to be the doc and wants to be the doc from the beginning of the game.
2. No town wants to discuss the doc cause it's bad news for town.

Ok, let me walk through this (I guess that with my being "new" to the game I can bring some fresh air) but stop me if I say something wrong / ununderstandable.
Stardust placed a bet by claiming doc (before anything serious happened, no less) and that's absolutely not relevant to our reads because either:
- Stardust is the doc, and trying to outsmart everyone else;
- Stardust is not the doc, but such actions are taking away pressure from the real
doc (and giving him a good target).

Now, why isn't anyone investigating this?
Because finding the doctor doesn't help us AT ALL in finding scum.

Why isn't the real doctor (provided Stardust is not, of course) counter-claiming?
Because we've got absolutely no way to help an unrevealed doctor from being killed.

3. Claiming the doc could be a joke, but why didn't scum kill stardust the first night? Why did stardust say his plan worked?

Why are you taking for granted that killing a non-scum Stardust would be a good scum move?
And why aren't you ever considering that sometimes people like to go fishing?

This has been bothering me for a long time. Here
is my call.
1. Stardust claims doc.
2. Deep seated mental cues say don't challenge this and peruse cause it's bad news for town.
3. Stardust now has the swing role of pushing weak players towards a vote cause he is the unchallenged doc that no one cam confirm.
4. Stardust has pretty much avoided most votes when hammer time came, but is generally ok with any vote except imopen2.
5. Stardust and imopen2 seem to be playing a little dance to keep us from becoming suspicious.
I could be dead wrong, but the 2 unconfirmed claims of doc and stardust's plan working are easy to be accepted or ignored. Those claims bother me and I find stardust strip onager scum than imopen2 cause of this. Lies like these are easy to sell to the idgets and it does not help town. Town can only benefit from known facts to act on, not unconfirmed claims.
Meanders is right. We should not trust the Canadian. Stardust in DTR mafia was scum hunting, but I find in this game; he is just directing us to any target. [/quote:
31pxptc9]

Now, this is more interesting.
Be aware that Stardust's normal way of playing is alway spretty manipulative from what I've perceived, so that's hardly a valid scum tell by itself, but this read on imopen2 and Stardust could lead to something.

PS: Kaze is canadian. Don't trust the mod!

Please consider my thoughts and decide whether you want a player pushing votes that makes unconfirmed claims of self role and completed jobs?
UNVOTE, VOTE STARDUST

Why is this causing you THAT much of a trouble?
We're hunting for scum here, not for doctors. What about you?

[RedNihilist]

My iPad cut out the play stardust is making.
1. Fake doc to get compliance and trust.
2. Push any vote not on his team.
3. Let the other team kill a town player and kill no one.
4. Strengthen doc claim by saying a plan worked.
5. 2 town are down.
6. Any scum on the other side killed are a bonus, but knocking off other town is paramount for them to win late game with 2 players still alive.
7. Town is forced to pick a scum team to go with to lynch scum in late game. Town has been doing nothing but infight and ignored Stardust's unconfirmed claims. Thus stardust plan is working better than imagined in my opinion.
This is a brilliant play if that is what is going on.

Ok, that could actually make sense, but deliberately missing a NK in order
to claim that one's plan is working is a bit too much of a Batman Gambit, though.

[Stardust]

Yeah, choosing to no-kill would be seriously stupid, especially considering I'd just be counterclaimed eventually anyway (making any townie gains from the gambit completely null).

The rest is legit enough, I guess. Red's right, I am pretty manipulative.

5) I have no idea why you guys believe Wraith is town. He's absolutely willing to lynch ANYONE and has been since the game started. He's ranting and raving about people being bloodthirsty (btw, your definition of that word was incorrect), but I've seen his vote hop more than anyone's. He's always asking how something someone else does helps town, but he himself has done nothing to help town. Read him again, guys. He's 100% in the backseat waiting to see what happens, then jumping once something does
happen so ferociously so as to make it seem, in our minds, that he's the one that thought of that in the first place.

A lot of Wraith's posting bothers me too. But it always has. I think he's town partially because he has actually been blazing his own trail this game (as usual) and partially because I suspect that when he does get a scum role he'll act much different. I get the impression that he's the kind of guy who just can't act, so I'm sort of trusting myself to be able to pick up on that when it happens. This looks like your run-of-the-mill crazy-but-town Wraith to me.

[Stardust]

Kaze! Please prod rezombad, Fate, Void and DroppinSuga. Thanks.

[( G_R )]

Hmm, I guess I'm tunneling Suga real hard. I'll reread zemanjaski's and other people's posts today, see if I can make my mind about some of them.

[Wraith223]

To some of the questions/comments posted towards me,
1. Manders on "bloodthirsty", I am not bloodthirsty but persue all leads. I don't have an interigation room thus I appear bloodthirsty in my questions and deductions. If I only went after one guy but did not consider all the other leads I have; how would that help town? Players don't have to listen to me as you never do. Bringing forth content, evidence, and reads helps town more than snipes of "Wraith you suck". I find many of Manders points that well thought out reads to be very insightfull, but when she goes PMSing; I know there is a tell there. Problem is I am not sure what is means or is trying to get me to do cause this is my first game with her.
2. Backseat playing?, I have been in the backseat for forever cause others seem to push for more votes with crap evidence or tiny leads. I try to persue all leads on all players. Not just the easy
ones that so many want to lynch.
3. Stardust's Batman Gambit, He is a very good player and I won't undersestimate his ability to pull of said play. It's the perfect set up cause no one will want to challenge said claim. If you persue said claim; you are scum wanting to kill the doc. Dumb players won't see that move as scum faking doc. It's bothered me since the game started. I learned not to trust unconfirmed claims in DTR Mafia. It also does not help Stardust that the reason to boot of Suga was cause "I don't want him on my team". Should have read, "he is a poor town player that is not helping town". What team is Stardust refering to?
4. Inability to act, I have not had the oppertunity to play scum, thus I don't know the plans I would make to influence town. Playing town is all I know, thus I will investigate all leads I have and bring them forth to town. Blazing my own way is my greatest stength as it gives me perspectives that most who read Mafia wiki may ignore. Anyone
wonder if Scum wrote Mafia wiki?

I don't understand why so many of you are on Zem as scum. He always looses control and goes off on someone. He is an aggresive "A" personality with a an ego. Suga is a quiet, dry humered, short responed, non-interactive guy. Nothing new here. They both throw votes around. Scum is seriously pushing the votes on these two cause they are a disstraction as Freedom was. Do you want a player with significant unconfirmed claims pushing us to votes this game? This does not sound suspicious to you?

@Red, Thanks for responding with your break down. Stardust is indeed manipulative as I am still getting the willies from when he tried to get me to vote Suga.

[RedNihilist]

I've got home from work pretty much right now (19.40 here) and I'll not be able to properly come up with a case against anyone before the deadline anyway (I mean, I'd have to reread pretty much everything in less than two days, that's out of my league), yet I've still got the feeling that we're lacking the proper direction.
I've reread once more the SugaZ incident and I feel like they'll both got good probabilities of turning town after a lynch, is this really the only way to end this day?

[imopen2]

Well I want to wait for Zem to post before I make a decision but there are definitely other ways this day could end

[Kazekirimaru]

Kaze! Please prod rezombad, Fate, Void and DroppinSuga. Thanks.

Gotcha.

[rezombad]

prodded, catching up.

[Stardust]

Manders
rezombad
Wraith223
imopen2
RedNihilist
(G_R)
Fate
DroppinSuga
zemanjaski
Void

[Stardust]

Whoops, accidentally hit submit there. That's my town/scum list from towniest to scummiest. Maybe a little unrefined in the scum area. I guess I'll follow up in a sec...

[Stardust]

Manders - Town.
rezombad - Town.
Wraith223 - Town.
RedNihilist - On the townie side of null
imopen2 - On the townie side of null
(G_R) - Null
Fate - On the scummy side of null
DroppinSuga - Maybe still scum
Void - Probably scum
zemanjaski - Probably scum

To elaborate on zemanjaski, it's not just that he's been bloodthirsty. It's also that he feels different. His posts are shorter and less thought-out. His direction appears to be dictated more by the flow of the game than by his own reads.

On reflection, I'd be quite alright with a Void lynch today too. Suga dropped in to help out after taking back his self-vote, but has disappeared again, so I'm still perfectly fine with lynching him too. His frustration felt sincere, but he unvoted himself quite soon after, making me wonder if it was all a stunt.

[rezombad]

I've got home from work pretty much right now (19.40 here) and I'll not be able to properly come up with a case against anyone before the deadline anyway (I mean, I'd have to reread pretty much everything in less than two days, that's out of my league), yet I've still got the feeling that we're lacking the proper direction.
I've reread once more the SugaZ incident and I feel like they'll both got good probabilities of turning town after a lynch, is this really the only way to end this day?

This post is super fencesitty.


@Stardust: Why did it take you so long to post the list I asked for? Why do you think Void is scum?

@Manders: I like Wraith as town mostly as a meta call. He
always posts inane shit that I tend to skim over, but his mindset isn't bad and I haven't seen anything from him that would make me think otherwise.

I don't like these posts from zem:

I am really angry. You'll notice I have withheld my vote though.

I am surprised at G_R finally calling for a lynch though - he has been pretty passive through the game. Had he raised suspicions about Suga before? Will need to check.

Sigh whatever. He fucked the game anyway.

Vote Suga

@Zem: Please calrify for me, you are not going to vote for the rest of the day? That's what I get
out of post 865.

[zemanjaski]

@ Rez, I suppose that's one possible meaning, but that's not what I meant.

[imopen2]

What did you mean? Also, post a t/s list please?

[Wraith223]

@Manders: I like Wraith as town mostly as a meta call. He always posts inane shit that I tend to skim over, but his mindset isn't bad and I haven't seen anything from him that would make me think otherwise.

um...Thanks? But...

[zemanjaski]

What did you mean? Also, post a t/s list please?

I mean exactly what I wrote - when I have cleared my head from being completely and utterly pissed off with Suga and can think straight about the game, I will re-assess.

I will post a T/S later today, not at home currently.

[Link]

had brokemy keyboard sorrry all

[Link]

we're definitely not lynching Z today come the fuck on...

[Stardust]

@Stardust: Why did it take you so long to post the list I asked for? Why do you think Void is scum?

Was it long? Several players hadn't even posted since I made my case. I actually didn't even intend to post my list at this time. I was thinking about it, so I made my list up to get a bigger perspective on the game, but I accidentally hit submit and figured I may as well follow up.

The only reason I unvoted Void was because of this post. I read that as townie frustration at the time, though I don't really see that now. His recent activity has all been pretty questionable. Void wanted to lynch the Captain for stupid reasons,
then naked voted GR, then disappeared as deadline loomed, so... yeah, pretty sure he's scum.

[imopen2]

What did you mean? Also, post a t/s list please?

I mean exactly what I wrote - when I have cleared my head from being completely and utterly pissed off with Suga and can think straight about the game, I will re-assess.

I will post a T/S later today, not at home currently.

Just need you to post it soon since we are running out of time

[DroppinSuga]

Prodded.

I don't see why Zem would be a bad lynch at this point in the game. I just want to make it clear that I'm not voting him because of his rage towards me, I've felt he was scum the whole game. When Zem flips scum, we need to go after Fate. He's been buddying Zem the whole game.

[rezombad]

When Zem flips scum, we need to go after Fate. He's been buddying Zem the whole game.

Tell me more.

[rezombad]

@Stardust: Why did it take you so long to post the list I asked for? Why do you think Void is scum?

Was it long? Several players hadn't even posted since I made my case. I actually didn't even intend to post my list at this time. I was thinking about it, so I made my list up to get a bigger perspective on the game, but I accidentally hit submit and figured I may as well follow up.

The only reason I unvoted Void was because of this post. I read that as townie
frustration at the time, though I don't really see that now. His recent activity has all been pretty questionable. Void wanted to lynch the Captain for stupid reasons, then naked voted GR, then disappeared as deadline loomed, so... yeah, pretty sure he's scum.

4 days. Why did you say you would post a list if you had no intention of posting a list?

[DroppinSuga]

When Zem flips scum, we need to go after Fate. He's been buddying Zem the whole game.

Tell me more.

Just go back and search for Fate's post in this thread. Pretty much every post is in agreement with Zem or pushing Zem's agenda.

[zemanjaski]

T/S List
Wraith223 - play consistent with his Town game; I like that he is willing to go against the grain and challenge players like Stardust. Sure, he contradicts himself sometimes, but I think that is an indicator of Town too.
rezombad* - playing the same as every game I have seen him as Town, right down to tunneling me to death. Don't ever change

(G_R) - hasn't done enough for me to get a read on him; that there are two scum teams greatly complicates my placing of him since what little scum hunting he has done could easily be scum hunting scum
Stardust - supported me a lot on Day 1. In DTR mafia he backed up Freedom when Freedom did dumb things; here he wanted to lynch Freedom. Maybe this is an indicator of a scum alignment? Add to that the doc claim and it is unclear to me. Questions overall have felt Town
though.
Fate - I have no idea what Fate is doing this game; could be either alignment
Void - never played with him before but I think the case against him is reasonable
Manders* - very passive play on Day 1 is excusable if it leads to something productive Day 2; Manders instead has remained passive only to wagon me at the end which seems very opportunistic.
RedNihilist r. Captain Murphy - replaced in for a possible scum player; said he would make some substantive posts but only commented on wraith's posts that were immediately above red's posts....now making excuses about being busy
imopen2 - already cased
DroppinSuga - already cased

In regards to how this game plays out, I don't have much more to say on the rage induced voting incident from a few days ago. All I ask is that you examine my play with that event put aside and then cast your vote accordingly.

[rezombad]

When Zem flips scum, we need to go after Fate. He's been buddying Zem the whole game.

Tell me more.

Just go back and search for Fate's post in this thread. Pretty much every post is in agreement with Zem or pushing Zem's agenda.

I want you to present the argument.

[RedNihilist]

Stardust - Good ole dustie. Needs to genderclaim because I see people using "he" and others using "she". Null read for the moment, I want to get more interaction with the specimen before taking a stance.
zemanjaski - His rage against Suga seems to be genuinely not game-related. The rest of his game so far seems compatible to TownZem, so I'm leaning town.
Void - I hate the way he plays and I fail miserably every time I try to read him. Good luck with that.
Wraith223 - Needs to stop posting GIFs but at least he's not trying to find Mogis. Still, I get town vibes from him, so I'll try to forget his performance in Theros Mafia.
Fate - I don't really get what kind of stunt he's pulling off by claiming scum, but that doesn't necessarily means he really is. Still, I don't like the self-awareness he's putting in his posts.
RedNihilist - Hi there.
DroppinSuga - I can't believe he's always SO scummy.
I don't know if he's acting really well but his behaviour is very compatible as his usual "OMG I'M TOWN WHY THE HELL ARE YOU PUTTING PRESSURE ON ME?!?" that he always throws at people when the focus gets set on him. And he's usually town. And not believing a similar read of mine in Theros Pantheon was just one of the misplays I made that ended up costing us the game. After the full reread I think I'm fine with him being lynched, though.
Manders - Good vibes here. The defense of imopen seems sincere, doesn't avoid discussion and doesn't seem to be putting up a team with anyone. Thumbs up here!
rezombad - After a full reread I see he didn't post really much, but I like what I've read. I mean, he's not posting often, but he's often coming in with good "reality checks" (in order: meta call on Void, Stardust's hammer, well motivated pressure on Suga), so thumbs up here.
(G_R) - Bands with Stardust, spends most of his posts hunting for Suga then backpedals in the end because &
quot;I guess I'm tunneling Suga real hard". I haven't got strictly bad feelings about him, but if Suga ends up flipping town (G_R) could be needing some attention.
imopen2 - He goes off with a bad start and that fabled townslip seems really suspicious to me. Yet he seems to recover later with some good points, but I really don't get why he suddenly stopped getting any attention.

Vote DroppinSuga

[Stardust]

Are you finding it hard to get a solid scum read this game, Red?

[RedNihilist]

I see suspicious people (Suga, Fate, G_R, imopen2, Void, you), but I'm not the kind of guy with "solid scum reads".

[( G_R )]

So, Red, do you think Suga is scum or not?

[imopen2]

yea, I'm confused as to why you are voting suga when you say he is likely town

[RedNihilist]

I've written the whole thing while doing a massive reread this morning, I'm sorry it came out so confused.
If you read my posts from the moment I started playing on, I was recognizing Suga's game as his usual way of being townie, but while I was reading things over I've noticed a number of details that made me shiver about him.
Before that, I thought that the Z vs S argument was "strongly leaning town" against "probably town", but right now I feel like Suga is abusing the previous game he played on this site in order to sound convincing here, and his "autolynch" -> "now you're listening to me so I'm not suiciding anymore" seems really forced.

[Wraith223]

@Red, I get tired of walls of text or just text in general. So many have complained that I write a confusing style that I decided to throw in Gifs to avoid confusion. Also, I find gifs to add that flavor of whatever message I am trying to convey. So, No, I want stop as it helps me convey that special message. Supernatural has really good gifs to select from as well for getting my message across.
Now on the matter of flavor gaming, I nailed it that the outsiders were possible Thassa, Erebos, and Nylea. I was wrong about Nylea and there was no way that I could deduce the sub god. Iso was a huge dick and knew I was on his trail. You were right about Mogis faking his death. I now know why flavor gaming is a bad call but I was right. Apperantly a pro player can lie out of anything.
I don't really know why Suga plays mafia cause any pressure causes him to resist what is wanted from the group or individuals
creating pressure (Fleshing out his rationality is not his strong point). There isn't really anything out of the ordinary here, but his style could hide a sleeper scum REALLY well. Thus I want to recognize others who do have doubts on his town possibility. My contention is that he is still the weak choice for scum hunting and should be considered late game. In the Theros game, He claimed to have lie detector ability and was excited to use it. He was killed by morons following Iso and appears to have become dissenchanted with other players/games. I was for a while as well. I would posit that Droppin Suga is Vanilla town (not excited) since he has little or no interest in the game so far.
Your predisessor was really the best choice and your play style is drastically different: Brat child/Aggresive semi-inactive versus mature thinkning/passive active. C.M. also said stupid shit frequently as well, and I will have to read you a little more to find alignment. Being consistent and having fleshed out reads/
votes on players helps as many still suspect you as scum. For the short time, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

I noticed Stardust is staying away from me and my theory of a devious Doc claim plus "plan worked scheme". You would think the other scum team or both would have killed stardust night 1, but they haven't. This does not add up with claim of Doc plus the "my plan worked" statement.
Zem and DroppinSuga are another distraction, thus I ask you all again: Who is pushing the votes, who has the most to gain from X or Y player leaving the game, and who just pushing any nuub player vote? My list is Void, Stardust, G_R, Manders, and Fate. That is one to mant for the scum team, but some of these are the good players. Imopen2 is posting more town to me lately and I backing off for now until something else comes up. I am not a heartless jerk (maybe the jerk) that ignores the other leads to crucify one guy.

[RedNihilist]

The thing about flavorgaming was meant to be a joke, there's really no point in discussing it any further.
Your late lead on who's pushing the carts is interesting but, despite what imopen2 said, I really feel like we're either pushing for Zem, Suga on No Lynch for toDay.
I mean, the deadline is 30 hours from now.

[RedNihilist]

Also, before ending up being reprimanded again for "claiming to be short on time", tomorrow I'll be away from 4am to 5pm EST, maybe something more.

[imopen2]

we could lynch void today. that's a thing too. has he been prodded?