Primer: R/w/x Aggro

[LaZerBurn]

@Elricity - Spark comes in in every game, is it worth considering him MD?

[LaZerBurn]

He did come first place in the end, that said I would of been shocked if he manage to clean out Gr with his MD - we all agree that the Gr is slightly unfavorable but it would be even worst with his list.

If this was in regards to Brad Nelson's list, he actually has lost at least 2 rounds and is actually down in the ~60's, not anywhere near the top tables for sure. I believe they just put his and BBD's list up on SCG in order to put a list out there.

I agree that this list, especially the sideboard, is kind of weird but Im no pro player so my opinion doesn't much
matter xD

Good, I didn't think it was a good list - but man this line above the list was misleading: 1st Place at StarCityGames.com Standard Open on 2/8/2014 from this link

Very misleading - he actually came in 185th!

[LP, of the Fires]

[deck]
Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Satyr Firedancer
2 Stormbreath Dragon

Other Spells
4 Boros Charm
2 Searing Blood
4 Lightning Strike
3 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Warleader's Helix
2 Chained to the Rocks

Land
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Mutavault
1 Temple of Malice
2 Temple of Silence
9 Mountain
[/deck]

Took the good stuff from brads deck and replaced skullcracks with actual magic cards.

[LaZerBurn]

List looks sweet LP. What deck are you favouring looking forward? Still on RW Devo?

[LP, of the Fires]

I'm not quite committed, but I really like this burn deck. Satyr Firedancer is actually the truth. I'll probably grind out some games to figure out what the board needs to look like, but the main looks very strong.

If it where a GP, I'd play the PyroRakis list for the reason Z stated: you're basically garuanteed to get a deck tech if you day 2

[LaZerBurn]

Cool, the relevant cards for this and the RB lists are on my BNG shopping list for the weekend, having to wait for MTGO is a mite annoying at times

[magicdownunder]

The list I'll be playing post BnG

[deck]Angry Phoenix, Hidden Dragon[/deck]

I actually tried running 3x Vaults cutting one Temple of Silence but I found my self missing my W sources more then I liked (I doubt it would of made a different if the vaults was a Temple or not, but I want to have more white sources).

BTW the Video list this week:
Mon: Rb Aggro
Tue: Dega burn
Wed: Angry Phoenix, Hidden Dragon
Thu: Rb Aggro
Fri: Dega burn

I'll be on
break till the 13th so I can play Modern, then I'll be back with standard once BnG starts (all the BnG talk is making it hard for me to play current mtgo std).

[LaZerBurn]

The list I'll be playing post BnG

[deck]Angry Phoenix, Hidden Dragon[/deck]

I actually tried running 3x Vaults cutting one Temple of Silence but I found my self missing my W sources more then I liked (I doubt it would of made a different if the vaults was a Temple or not, but I want to have
more white sources).

BTW the Video list this week:
Mon: Rb Aggro
Tue: Dega burn
Wed: Angry Phoenix, Hidden Dragon
Thu: Rb Aggro
Fri: Dega burn

I'll be on break till the 13th so I can play Modern, then I'll be back with standard once BnG starts (all the BnG talk is making it hard for me to play current mtgo std).

I like the list,I'm excited to see how Firedancer works out. Totally agree about the BnG talk effect - I've not done a DE in 2 weeks, just ran the test decks in the 2-mans and thought "this will be better when it's a Temple Of Malice" everytime I played a GG

P.S. Are you gonna play Burn in Modern?

[DriftingLifted]

Looking forward to trying this list out, hoping for the best. I gotta say though, G/R is real tempting, playing with XeneGod is just so very fun.

[vundo]

My list for BotG came out to be very similar to yours, MDU. I had firedancers in the side for awhile but they're definitely solid enough to mainboard. Of course that led to cutting mortars entirely. I'm still tempted to play some number of Chandras but perhaps its not the best answer to UW. I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted Toil // Trouble but it might be our best bet. I'm curious to see how well the 1-drop plan works considering how UW players will sideboard. All their removal is still efficient and important even without 1 drops since verdict hits dragon, dsphere and last breath hit phoenix. But I guess if they tap out for those, it'll give them less breathing room a chance to counter our burn?

[magicdownunder]

@vundo: The 1 drops are more for the Bx Devotion, for UW I'm just happy if they eat removals and buys time for either Burns, Phoenix or Stormbreath Dragon to take over.

@LaZerBurn: i'll play burn for Modern, I'm having trouble deciding between Rwb, R or Rb

[poppa_f]

With 4 firedancers I'd consider running Searing Blood and Chandra's Outrage.

The first post BotG tournament just finished and the main archetypes were MBD, Mono-u, G/R Monsters and U/w control. I've looked through the decklists and very few creatures are under 3 toughness (this is what you would expect with Drown in Sorrow being a thing now). The G/R monsters list is running a lot of 4 and 5 toughness creatures, so I think having removal that kills these guys will be important. The G/R guys don't seem to be running the BTE plan any more (presumably because of the black sweepers), so shock and magma jet have quite a narrow range now (basically the mana dorks that don't have hexproof and the flyers on the Mono-U list).

Also, instant speed removal could be useful for getting blow-outs (eg they pump with Ghor-clan rampager, in response you remove their guy). The other scary thing is Xenagos the god, as he provides
haste and 2x pump, so your sorcery speed removal isn't going to cut it if he slams a fatty with haste, you need instant speed response (in general I'd want to play Burn as a draw/go against G/R for exactly these reasons).

Against MBD, chandra's outrage kills DD in one hit, if you have a firedancer on the board. Also gives you outs against Obzedat for the Esper match-up.

[Elricity]

@Poppa: My problem with trying to combine Firedancer with cards like searing blood and outrage is that you now have a number of spells that do jack all if your opponent doesn't have creatures. It's awful vs control but it's still not a great option vs aggro where sometimes, they have a board presence that tells you that you have to kill them NOW. You don't have to answer the entire board, just enough of it that their life total goes to 0 before yours. It's constant math. I like Firedancer because it helps make that math much easier since you're playing two sides of the game at once.

Looks like everyone tested Dancer more than I was and are seeing what I was seeing.

@MDU: I like the dragons but I don't want to raise my curve above 4. I like that they're immune to charm/dsphere but I'd rather toil//trouble them down with oracles.

@Val: If you're going Dancers, you want to run four. They are obscene in multiples.


@Lazer: While I like him in most games, my other cards have bigger impacts against certain types of decks that I wouldn't know what to cut that wouldn't hurt my game 1 somewhere. Game 2/3 once I know my opponent's weakness, he's a club I use to push it over. Plus, there is the chance I play against some janky maze's end or blind obedience deck that just turns off the card entirely. Not worth the risk.

@LP: You can't remove skullcrack maindeck. Taking them out auto folds to B Dev or UW. Sometimes even Brave happy white weenie decks too.

I finally got a deck built on MTGO so I need to start looking people up when I have time.

[Valdarith]

I don't want to run Firedancer in the first place so the decision is easy for me.

[poppa_f]

I'm with Val tbh, I don't want to run fire-dancer full stop, as it's weak against black and U/w, which is a sizable portion of the meta.

My current plan is to either run token strategy with YP/brimaz/purphoros/elspeth/assemble, or a W/R aggro deck running YP/soldier of the pantheon/brimaz/eidolon/phoenix. I've been testing on tapped out with both, feels like both are competitive but mana fixing is a bit dodgy.

I'm now leaning towards playing fated conflagration in the main, as it deals with all of G/R's threats. I'd even leave it in against U/w, as kills Jace and Elspeth in one hit, and also an insurance policy on them boarding in Archangel of Thune, which seems to be a commonish strategy for those decks post board against R/w (when you've sided out your mizziums and chained). My problem is 1RRR is hard to cast from a deck trying to play Brimaz.

[Elricity]

I'm with Val tbh, I don't want to run fire-dancer full stop, as it's weak against black and U/w, which is a sizable portion of the meta.

So, just to make sure I understand the argument against UW:

1) Satyr Firedancer is bad maindeck against UW because it is creature removal
2) Therefore, I'm going to maindeck creature removal cards like Mizzium Mortars and Chain to the rocks, then run Fated Conflagration which might be difficult to cast.

Have I understood your position correctly?

MDU, I keep forgetting 2 dragons on 23 lands is viable. Maybe -2 Chandra, +2 dragon is the better call. I'm still not keen on more than 4 terrors mainboard (which dancer is). Have you considered tossing in a temple of malice or two? Maybe I'm more comfortable
with tap lands than others.

[LP, of the Fires]

See, dancer isn't a terror. He's infinite terror, that also domes while attacking every once in a while. If you run a sufficiently high amount of scry, then it's probably a non-issue.

[poppa_f]

I'm with Val tbh, I don't want to run fire-dancer full stop, as it's weak against black and U/w, which is a sizable portion of the meta.

So, just to make sure I understand the argument against UW:

1) Satyr Firedancer is bad maindeck against UW because it is creature removal
2) Therefore, I'm going to maindeck creature removal cards like Mizzium Mortars and Chain to the rocks, then run Fated Conflagration which might be difficult to cast.

Have I understood your position correctly?

I see where you are coming from, but (1) and (2) above are not mutually
exclusive. I have to run creature removal and terror effect because Desecration Demon and green fatties are a thing, as is Master of Waves. I could run firedancer instead, but then if I don't draw him or he dies then I'm in a bad spot. If I run him in addition to creature removal then I am a massive dog against U/w pre-board.

I like fated conflagration as it is instant speed, which I think is quite relevant for G/R. The cards that scare me the most in that matchup are SBD, Polukanos, Xenagos and Domri and it takes out all of those guys. It also kills obzedat, which is pretty amazing in the Esper matchups. I agree that 1RRR is tricky to cast, but a lot of the time I will have > 4 lands down by the time I cast it, so maybe not the end of the world (basically I'm still testing it and not decided either way yet). Scry 2 could be relevant as well sometimes.

[magicdownunder]

Here are my Dega Burn games (Draft 1#), Fridays list will be (Draft 2#) which is much better.

Standard Elimination Report (Event 6709520)
Standard Elimination R1 Dega Burn vs Gr Devotion Event 6709520
Standard Elimination R2 Dega Burn vs Esper Control Event 6709520
Standard Elimination R3 Split

- - - - - - - - - -

I think you guys underrating Satyr Firedancer (if you connect 20 times with him you will still win) in the Bx and Ux MU.

Vx Bx they have to remove him or he deals with any threat they cast
Vx UW - I'm not sure how
the list have evolved recently, but I suspect that G2-3 can can deal with Fiendslayers, Angels, Vaults, Soldiers or Tokens (plus he soaks up removal).

@poppa_f: Rw Token was weak vs Bx Devotion and Control in the old meta, it hasn't improved much - so I'm not sure why you believe its the correct choice against the very same two list it was originally weak against.

[Elricity]

@LP: True about scry. My concern is seeing a hand with multiple of both chain/satyr game 1 which is awkward normally and death if your opponent happens to be control. I may be overworrying it but I'm going to stay on Oracle of Bones for a while longer since I've been happy with him. I'm probably being too greedy on my curve with 7 4's and 2 5's on 23 lands though.

@Poppa: I'm worried you'll end up being too reactive. You are the agro deck against GR monsters and need to stay on that plan. I'm of the personal opinion that the same is true vs blue Dev but I can accept I might be incorrect there. Obviously, game 2 you slam in both and go to town.

@MDU: That's how I'm looking at it. I would still board him out vs B dev. Am I wrong there? I'd leave him in vs Rx or Bx aggro since charm/skullcrack/oracle are all coming out anyway and I can to town if they tap out.

One of the things I'm finding I like the most
about Satyr is:

1) He dodges protection from white/multicolored. Using him to kill Soldier, Fiendslayer, Stormbreath, and BBV is really helpful.
2) If I guess they're pocketing a protection spell, I still get the value of burning them in the face and in the case of Helix, still get the life.

[LP, of the Fires]

Worth noting:

In the mirror, it's reasoanble to side out most of your creatures including firedancer. Searing blood is just too much of a blowout otherwise.

[Elricity]

I'd be loathe to pull at Phoenix as he walls so well in the mirror. Boros charm or even shock counters searing blood in a pinch.

[poppa_f]

@poppa_f: Rw Token was weak vs Bx Devotion and Control in the old meta, it hasn't improved much - so I'm not sure why you believe its the correct choice against the very same two list it was originally weak against.

Against B/x my previous game plan was to play aggro and a plan B of assemble. I think aggro strategy is harder now because of Drown in Sorrow and to a lesser extent Bile Blight. My two ideas to deal with this are either play bigger/more durable creatures (Brimaz, Eidolon, Phoenix), or go all-in on the token plan. You're right that the deck hasn't improved much (Brimaz is the main upgrade), but my point is more that the old plan has got worse, to the point that tokens may be better now.

Against U/w my plan is to have 4 Spirit of the Labyrinth and 4 boros charm post-board. If the Spirits stay alive then I should be able to grind out a win with CA from Chandra/Phoenix etc
or make an Elspeth or Assemble stick long enough or simply burn them out or Purphoros them to death. Agree that first game is hard against U/w though.

[Elricity]

Think I may have gone overboard with the curve and tap lands so trying this.

[deck]
2 Oracle of Bones
4 Satyr Firedancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Stormbreath Dragon

4 Lightning Strike
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Magma Jet
4 Boros Charm
4 Warleader's Helix

3 Mutavault
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Malice
7 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry

Sideboard
3 Chains
1 Oracle
4 Toil
4 Reckoner
3 Spark Trooper[/deck]

[Pedros]

@MDU

Rootng for you and your development in RW as I will be more focused on black / black-red, but will still follow this thread.

[Deht]

I liked the Angry Phoenix, Hidden Dragons video set that MDU put up. Fun matchups.

[magicdownunder]

Cheers guys

Here are the videos:

Standard Elimination Report (Event 6719725)
Standard Elimination R1 Angry Pheonix, Hidden Dragon vs RDW Event 6719725
Standard Elimination R2 Angry Pheonix, Hidden Dragon vs Rb Aggro Event 6719725
Standard Elimination R3 Angry Pheonix, Hidden Dragon vs Bx Devotion Event 6719725

If your
wondering why I don't have list posted, its because these will all change once BnG get released online

@Pedros: If go by the last results, I think B Aggro really has a chance at being on top (Discard is strong vs Gx and UW)

[LP, of the Fires]

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=11641

Yeah, it's a flores article, but if you just skip to the bottom, it's actually an interesting question. The thought process which goes into these kinds of decisions is always interesting to examine.

[LP, of the Fires]

I haven't posted my response in the thread yet, mostly because I'm at work, but later today I probably will and depending on how tired I am, I'll either post an in depth reasoning why or I'll just copy past someone elses answer that I agree with.

[Valdarith]

Yeah I was reading that yesterday. I thought it was an interesting question.

[Lightning_Dolt]

First hand I like leading with temple because you need to dig for T3 red source and you know that's what you need. You are bottoming anything that isn't Magma Jet or red source.

Second hand I like T1 mountain, T2 temple because you know you have double red for T3 phoenix, you have shok up for T1 or 2 dork.

[Jack]

I like turn 1 Mountain for the first, which allows you to shock an elf on their end step or Mortars something bigger next turn. If you don't need to Mortars, Temple is the turn 2 play since it allows you to make a more informed decision than if you had played it turn 1. Phoenix doesn't have to be cast turn 3, especially in a midrange deck.

[Jack]

Second hand I'd probably do the same.

[Elricity]

Second hand depends on who my opponent is. Against a blind opponent, I agree with Johnny. If it's a control deck, I'm playing the mutavault turn one to get a free pop in. I have 2 draws of 13 cards to get a turn 3 phoenix.

[LP, of the Fires]

First thing you have to do is access your gameplan. With the deck presented to us, we want to kill everything and kill them with dragons. Seems good. As such, we run lots of removal that we need to manage well and we can find spots to get in incremental damage later until dragon comes online.

If we lead with scryland, we're sort of committed to bottoming anything that isn't a red source and worse, if it's a temple of triumph, we can't shock our opponents turn 1 or 2 play. That, and scrying in the dark is just the worst thing ever unless you have to for curve considerations. The only slight upside you get is throwing your opponent off on what deck your playing.

Leading with mutavault means we can attack on turn 2 if our opponent has no turn 1 play of note. This incremental damage can be very relevant down the line, but I want the option to do multiple things in a turn if I draw a temple of triumph. That would put you
in an awkward position of playing mountain, swinging, then playing temple on 3, and temple on 4 which may or may not be good enough(we can mortars on 3, so that's not the worse).

Leading with mountain seems like the healthiest thing for our curve. If we kill there turn 1, that's massive value. If they do nothing, we wasted a mana, but we get to lay our scry down if we don't find the red source while still holding shock up and our shock kills all turn 2s minus frostburn weird and sylvan caryatid, the latter of which we can't interact with at all. Really though, I just want to preserve my scrys for maximum value while still having mana flexibility which is why I like mountain go the most. If we scry and see a chained to the rocks, we're bottoming it, and if our opponent turns out to be playing mono-blue, we've likely shot ourselves in the foot.

It's often said that miss-assignment of role=game loss. I think the same thing applies to scry.

Second hand, it's DEFINITELY mountain go. You don't
need to cast mortars on turn 2 because everything that would die to your mortars dies to shock at that stage of the game. The worst thing that could happen is your opponent duresses you, takes your shock, and you play your tap land, they play packrat. Still dies to mortars on three.

[LaZerBurn]

What a really insightful and excellent post LP, thsnks

[Jack]

My thoughts exactly, LP; I just didn't write them all down like you did.

[Valdarith]

PSully posted a RW list today on SCG. Thoughts? I personally don't like it, but the article itself had a lot of good points.

[LaZerBurn]

Agreed Val, I can't get behind Reckoner MD at all.

[magicdownunder]

You guys need to make sure you place things in context, PSally is a Large Event level player - if the last large event will filled with Gx then taking Reckoner MD is fine (I won't do it on MODO...).

I actually ran 4x Goblin Outlander MD back in the day, I also had Swords when Caw blade was running a muck