Primer: R/w/x Aggro

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:20 pm

Gonna give the WH list a try tomorrow at TNM and report back.

@Lazer - stole your idea for an avatar

Pedros · Postby **Pedros** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:09 am

people on championships on mtgo: what are you playing?

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:33 am

My Thoughts on the Esper Aggro/Midrange matchup

They're running 12 Shock lands <-> Thus, burn is strong against them
Large amounts of ground creatures <-> Thus, your ground force is pointless (beside ash, since his her first strike is vital here) I would NEVER keep my 1-Drops against them
Decent amount of removal <-> Thus, creatures without immediate impact are worthless (Boros Reck.)
They're running 5 lifegain cards (2x Whips, 3x Ghostdads) <-> Thus, your on a clock - you can't spend your game in control mode for too long

EDIT: Bleh, Ash somehow turned male again

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:44 am

This is a crazy thought, but could frostburn wierd replace ash zealot?

@JS - what was your buddy playing?

I too have a PTQ this weekend, and a Super IQ on sunday and am not sure what to play. I played PyroDragons to a top8 finish this past weekend, but got completly wrecked by an esper deck packing Last Breath and Devour Flesh in the MD. Probably going to play Big Boros, but I will def be putting Wear//Tear in the SB.

A stock RW devotion list.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:56 am

My Thoughts on the Esper Aggro/Midrange matchup

They're running 12 Shock lands <-> Thus, burn is strong against them
Large amounts of ground creatures <-> Thus, your ground force is pointless (beside ash, since his first strike is vital here) I would NEVER keep my 1-Drops against them
Decent amount of removal <-> Thus, creatures without immediate impact are worthless (Boros Reck.)
They're running 5 lifegain cards (2x Whips, 3x Ghostdads) <-> Thus, your on a clock
- you can't spend your game in control mode for too long

I tried doing control thw first time, which didn't work.

I tried no dragons control (with 2x assemble at the top end) which didn't work.

I tried hyper aggro (22 lands + all the burn) but flooded. Of the three I think it was the best.

Not too keen on dragons here. They play out like they do in mono black (4 damage max).

How does this look?:

+3 warleader's helix
+1 Wear // Tear
+2 Glarebof Heresy
+2 Last Breath
+2 Mizzium Mortars
+2 Chained to the Rocks

-4 Rakdos Cackler
-4 Firedrinker Satyr
-2 Stormbreath Dragon
-1 mountain
-1 mutavault

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:13 am

I actually like StormBreath Dragon in this MU, if you go by the Esper Aggro Stock list they only have 4x direct ways of dealing with the Dragon (+2 Sweepers).

Jedi_Knight · Postby **Jedi_Knight** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:09 am

Just to hop in and say that I am not that rusty after my break, which is nice. Managed to qualify for the Theros Champ. on my second try, beating GW R1, MonoU R2 (Chains and Mortars are seriously the best cards in this MU as far as I am concerned), losing to MonoB R3 (something went terribly wrong, lost even after I took care of 3 Demons), beating UGR Monstrosity (deck was slow, but packed full of big creatures like some trampling multiplying slime, Primordials and even land destruction) and finally beating Orzhov.

I admit, my opponents had serious cases of mana shortages but then again that happens to me too.

As for the deck, I took MDU's latest list (this marks the first time I copied someone else's deck entirely) and played 4 SE events today before jumping into Quali. Won 3 of them - more precisely, 2, since one opponent didn't care to show up. So I ahve 8 QPs after one day... that feels very awesome. I do assume
though that with such gracious amount of QP lying around there will much fiercer competition at the prelims and finals.

I'll probably modify it somehow (still not fan of that many 1 drops) and SB will always be tailored to the player (I admit, I miss Anger), but the games reminded me why I love the deck and it's variants. For anyone thinking of picking this up, go for it. Johny Spike's list is also awesome, just not for me - I already have problems with 6 one drops, 8 is just too many for me.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:46 am

@Jedi_Knight: Well done, we now have 6 DtR members in the finals (1 playing PyroDragons, 1 playing Rw Tokens and 4 playing Boros Aggro) please note the majority of the champs will be Bx Devotion so you'll need your 1-Drops and its nice to know my list is doing well for you

.

Last Time

Standard Elimination Event 6612176
Report
Standard Elimination R1 Boros Aggro vs Bx Devotion Event 6612176 <-- Top200 member
Standard Elimination R2 Boros Aggro vs Gr Devotion Event 6612176
Standard Elimination R3 Boros Aggro vs Esper Aggro Event 6612176

Please note, I played the above games rather poorly (I'm really thinking about cutting SC for another Boros Charm and Wear // Tear, but the Bx MU.....).

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:15 am

I actually like StormBreath Dragon in this MU, if you go by the Esper Aggro Stock list they only have 4x direct ways of dealing with the Dragon (+2 Sweepers).

Either they were playing more, or drew all of them.

dauntless268 · Postby **dauntless268** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:18 am

On Esper Aggro: My choice looking at the discussion here would probably be (slightly simplified)

IN: all Skullcrack, Boros Charm, Helix we have in SB
IN: Wear & Tear & Glare (if / as available)

and then on the play:
OUT: a combination of Dragons and Lands to bring to a good curve

on the draw:
OUT: 1-drops

I have a few questions for everyone, mainly looking towards the Champs on Saturday:

On the deck
1. Additional creatures in the SB for Bx and Control Matchup (mainly for those of us who play 6 one-drops) -> I do, though not sure if I should simply run 2 FDS in place of Skullcleavers
2. Guildgate vs. Temple of Silence? -> I prefer Temples atm because the Scry is more important to me than the risk of not being able to cast Ash on T2
3. How good is Chandra in current Meta? -> I considered moving 1 to the SB for a
Helix MD, but in the end decided against it

On the Champs
4. How much Bx Devotion are we going to see? -> My feeling is a lot, but I'm maybe biased by my own qualifiers
5. How do good Bx players sideboard against us? Connections out or in? -> I've heard both, and I think it would influence my thinking about the SB
6. How many people are going to play RDW or other Aggressive Variants (and Burn?) as they still seem to have still the best matchup against Bx? -> we may want to look at our SB with that in mind

notap123 · Postby **notap123** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:25 pm

All I can say is yes please:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachme ... 1389675749

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:35 pm

All I can say is yes please:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachme ... 1389675749

I don't know... It smells like Vexing Devil to me... trying to stay cautiously optimistic.

Zooligan · Postby **Zooligan** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:55 pm

All I can say is yes please:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachme ... 1389675749
I don't know... It smells like Vexing Devil to me... trying to stay cautiously optimistic.

the whole Tribute mechanic has some Vexnicity to it, no?

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:26 pm

All I can say is yes please:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachme ... 1389675749
I don't know... It smells like Vexing Devil to me... trying to stay cautiously optimistic.
the whole Tribute mechanic has some Vexnicity to it, no?[/quote:
358pwwty]

Yes it does... time will tell. Need the whole set spoiled so we can start testing.

notap123 · Postby **notap123** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:03 pm

But in this particular instance niether form of the creature is bad. If your oppennent gives you a 5/5 you know it will probably die but they still have to use a piece of removal. The non-tribute form speaks for itself.

Vexing Devil didnt have two board prescence options (or fly), I honestly don't see the comparision.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:05 pm

But in this particular instance niether form of the creature is bad. If your oppennent gives you a 5/5 you know it will probably die but they still have to use a piece of removal. The non-tribute form speaks for itself.

Vexing Devil didnt have two board prescence options (or fly), I honestly don't see the comparision.

If your oppenent says make it a 5/5 then Wraths, it's pretty bad. IDK, we'll see. I think I like Exava better.

notap123 · Postby **notap123** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:14 am

A 4cc 5/5 flier is solid in my book, chances are that's what it will typically be. Even if your opponent has removal that shouldn't effect your decision to play this card, it should really only be based on how much you value the evasion.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:47 am

That's like saying Polukranos is bad because it doesn't have haste. Think about that for a moment.

vundo · Postby **vundo** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:51 am

not really. polukranos is pretty bad against non creature heavy decks and made up for by usually coming down on turn 3

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:39 am

That doesn't make the card bad. That means it has a matchup where it's not as good. You can say that about a lot of cards. But even against those matchups it's a powerful card.

If a card like Polukranos can be successful in a format full of Terminate effects, the new Phoenix can too, perhaps moreso because of evasion.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:21 am

The problem is that in red, it's competing with Exava and Chandra. I don't lke its chances.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:28 am

Yep, mentioned that in the Rakdos thread. We'll just have to see how it plays out.

LaZerBurn · Postby **LaZerBurn** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:39 am

The MonoB match up just got a lot harder

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:41 am

As of now.... red and white aggro are dead haha. Bye bye dos packis! Maybe I am overreacting...

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:06 am

I other news, went 4-1 tonight for top 4 split with MDU list.

. Beat GW 2-1, Lost to Mono B 0-2 because he resolved whip both games, Beat BW midrange/control 2-0, Beat Esper 2-0. top 8 beat mono B... In preparation for ptq this weekend I have these questions:

Cut 1 LB for 1 Wear? Cut 1 Glare for on Wear? Cut 1 LB for 1 more assemble? Cut 1 glare for 1 assemble?

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:53 am

I have these questions:Cut 1 LB for 1 Wear? Cut 1 Glare for on Wear? Cut 1 LB for 1 more assemble? Cut 1 glare for 1 assemble?

I say no in cutting LB, because Ux is still the worst MU by far (its worst then Esper admit it).

Glare for Wear // Tear or Assembles maybe, just because of how common Bx is - I like Glare so I don't know.

Also I'm glad my list is working for you purp

I do think Bx has got a huge buff, but I'm comfortable in playing through board sweeps (due too all our haster).

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:03 am

All I can say is yes please:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachme ... 1389675749

Its going to depend on how the meta evolves, if Rx, Gx and Ux based builds remind strong then its going to be a solid choice

if Bx build stay strong.... not so much.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:13 pm

As of now.... red and white aggro are dead haha. Bye bye dos packis! Maybe I am overreacting...

You are. Decks will adjust for it.

Helios · Postby **Helios** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:40 pm

^^^^ The truth. Remember when Anger of the Gods was spoiled?

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:24 pm

Anger of the Gods is not even close to being a scary spoil in comparison to Drown. Pharikas cure simply gets replaced in MBC. This effectively acts as a turn 3 verdict for esper as well. While I know all the spoils are not out yet, they have simply made the top tier decks even better wtih one card. Not to mention it handles elspeth and assemble tokens.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:17 pm

It still won't kill red aggro. It will just require those decks to make certain concessions.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:33 pm

@MDU - A thought I had last night about boros guildgates. Has anyone considered cutting one, maybe two in favor of temple of silences?

Aodh · Postby **Aodh** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:17 pm

I'll likely play black aggro splash red once BotG hits. I wanna' play 4 Thoughtseize.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:39 pm

Black aggro is the direction I'm leaning currently as well for the exact same reason.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:04 pm

What is our current SB strat for the GW matchup? Using MDU list

Also, could we cut a SB mortar for 1 more WH?

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:15 pm

@MDU - A thought I had last night about boros guildgates. Has anyone considered cutting one, maybe two in favor of temple of silences?

LP suggested it awhile back and dauntless268 currently runs them, I tested it awhile back as well its decent - but I've lost 3 games due too them in the past because I couldn't cast Ash or Chandra's Phoenix in a timely fashion (its 3 out of many games... so you can chalk it up to variants if you like, I prefer not being greedy nowadays).

What is our current SB strat for the GW matchup? Using MDU list

GW is simple, Cut the 1 drops and
Chandra for the Reckoner, Chains, Mortars and Glares.

Also, could we cut a SB mortar for 1 more WH?

You can if you want, but you'll make Gx, Wx, Rx and Ux Harder - remember Mortar is 2cc removal or 6cc sweeper (it would improve the Esper, Bx and controls MUs).

EDIT: Can someone help convince me to run Wear // Tear, I can't justify running cards just too deal with Whip.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:54 am

Wear // Tear is good vs Esper aggro and control. It's also good VS mono black if they're playing whip. Reasonable VS mono u as it can kill a bident and a domestication.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:59 am

What is our current SB strat for the GW matchup? Using MDU list

Also, could we cut a SB mortar for 1 more WH?

I like to bring in:

2x mizzium mortars
3x warleaders helix
2x glare of heresy
2x last breath
3x boros reckoner

I take out:

4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Firedrinker Satyr
4x Ash Zealot

Just play full blown control while chipping away with phoenixes and taking away chunks with Dragons.

notap123 · Postby **notap123** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:04 pm

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachme ... 1389834005

Pretty legit synergy w/ Chandra's Pheonix. Chump block, kill w/ Searing Blood, then snag your pheonix back.

Jedi_Knight · Postby **Jedi_Knight** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:44 pm

To better handle suit my plastyle against monoB, I am (considering) cutting one Charm and adding one Assemble to SB. I actually already did that, just not really sure if I stick to it. They both go in against monoB, but Charm I dont't find as useful as the Assemble, which frankly terrifies monoB players (and for good reason) - and since we board out dragons, I do feel a little bit sad without a good chance to see a nice 5mana finisher.

Also is it just me, or do we have a unfavorable matchup (emphasis on the draw) against Red All In? I know that these decks currently go for only about few % of online meta, but boy, do I miss me Anger. It's winnable for sure, just a bit harder than it was. That could be my bias since my november build was kinda tuned against then rampaging aggro decks.

As for the new set I am not relly terrified about the sweeper, since I doubt they will
run 4 copies of it MB. Sure, it gets harder, but we will adapt, as we always do. At least there will be more incentive to at least try RB with all the haste these colors offer.

Dies to Removal

Primer: R/w/x Aggro

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