[Primer] PyroRed

[LaZerBurn]

So here we go again for yet another DE

Today's list

---

[deck]PyroLaZer[/deck]

I like the look of this list tell me how testing goes

Very well - Longtoe took down a PE with it

[Jack]

I would not ever side out Phoenix. He is the main win con when we are the control deck.

In most cases I'd agree, but he's playing zero 1-drops already main, so what do you cut instead of the phoenixes to bring in your extra removal? Against White Weenie my game plan is to kill all their creatures and resolve a dragon or a chandra to win. I'd much rather have burn in my starting hand than phoenixes and Ash Zealot and reckoner are better on defence, so I can't see anything else to get rid of.

I'd cut both Dragons and only bring in the 2 pieces of removal. Dragon
doesn't really do much beyond accelerating your clock once you stop the early assault. Phoenix does the same, but also has use in the early game.

[poppa_f]

Yeah I can see the logic in that. I'm always keen to play the dragon against monowhite as it's such a beating for them, but game could be over by the time you curve out to that fifth land. Also find myself top-decking against aggro if I've 1-4-1'd my burn on their creatures, in which case the phoenix recurrence is very relevant

[Longtoe]

Sideboard: I have no idea what the mountain is for I am cutting it and going to try some Adrian Sullivan tech, Tajic. Also cutting a flames for a glare as well.

[Helios]

The mountain comes in when you bring in the 3rd Dragon - don't cut it.

[LaZerBurn]

^^ this

[soebek]

Been out of the loop for a few weeks, but taking this list to a PTQ on Saturday. Is Rod of Ruin still good tech in the sideboard or should I just put in another Last Breath?

[Helios]

Stormbreath in the main somewhat mitigates the drawback of Last Breath - that's really the only reason last breath is an option. That being said, Rod is still fine.

[DriftingLifted]

Hey guys, magic rookie here, been lurking for awhile but I finally got my cards in to finish up at least a playable 75 so figured I'd start my posting. Planning on running PyroDragons at my FNM this Friday after a couple weeks wait. I've been play testing with friends (lot of G/r Ramp, Mono B and some control variants) in the meantime to get a feel for the deck after I fell in love with the deck list and proposed play style. I've definitely yet to do the list justice but we'll see how I do this coming week. I plan on making a run at Grand Prix Vancouver to have some fun in a competitive atmosphere, gotta do my first big tournament some time or another right?

That said here's what I'll be running:
[DECK]
Creatures
4x Firedrinker Satyr
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Chandra's Phoenix
2x Stormbreath Dragon

Instants/Sorceries:
4x Lightning Strike
4x Magma Jet
3x Shocks
2x Mizzium Mortars

nOther Spells:
2x Chandra, Pyromastah
4x Chained to the Rocks

11x Mountain
4x Mutavault
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Temples of Scry-Umph

SIDEBOARD:
2x Boros Charm
4x Boros Reckoners
2x Flames of the Firebrand
2x Last Breath
3x Skullcrack
1x Boros Guildgate
1x Wear//Tear
[/DECK]

I don't know how I feel about the Flames of the Firebrand, will probably get some 2 for 1's (hopefully against two pack rats?) and be good against small aggro, but I want to run 1 or 2 more Mizzium Mortar for Mono-U, G/W, Dragons etc. Overall seems like it might be a better card. I have the Boros Guildgate in there since I plan on running a third Dragon once I pick up the card, I'll likely cut a Reckoner for it. Other than that, pretty typical board, I might want to look for one more cut to bring in another Wear//Tear since I'm pretty convinced it has a lot of potential, though 1 might be enough. Also wondering if anyone can give me the merits of Glare of Heresy, seems like Chains covers a lot of it's targets
but, hey, can't have enough Chains in my mind.

Lemme know what you all think, glad I found this fantastic community, I'm picking up a lot from watching MDU's vids and seeing all the input from the regulars on here.

[zemanjaski]

Six maindeck terrors is no bueno.

[Guttler]

I've decided to play PyroDragons in SCG Open in Orlando this weekend. I only live about 2 hours away from Orlando, but my usual weekend plans have kept me away from large tournaments in my area.

I switched to the deck in early November, disappointed with my FNM results running GW Aggro; basically following MDU over. I have 2 months of unprecedented success locally with the deck, top 8ing every single tournament I played with it except 2; (they were an SCG IQ in which I found myself in a huge point tie for the last few single digit spots, but was 12th based on tie breakers, the other was last weeks FNM, in which I had a very disappointing 2-3 record, losing to Esper Midrange, GR Monsters, and American Control.)

My list is the same as purp's old deck. http://sales.starcitygames.com//
deckdat ... ckID=60930 Only 1 land is different; I play the extra Mutavault.

My confidence in the deck has been shaken since it's poor performance at the first FNM of the year; I know most of you have moved more towards the Big Boros type decks. However, there is no way I can learn a new deck in a week, (or just days at this point) so I'll just have to do as well as I can with this. I still believe the deck is very strong, even vs wide open meta.

Some questions for players more experienced at large paper tournaments:
When I play paper magic, I usually just use a plastic life counter to keep track of my life and I use a d6 and a d10 to keep track of my opponent's life. Would this be okay at a large event?
I also use fire pokemon cards in different color sleeves to represent my Young Pyromancer tokens and I have a sleeved fire energy card that separates my main deck and my sideboard. Is this okay?
Should I buy new deck sleeves? My current ones are not bad, but not super new either.
nAny general advice?

[poppa_f]

I'm playing in my LGS standard tonight. Have been testing MDUs PyroSkies build a fair bit on MODO and had a pretty good win rate, so going to run with that, with a slightly tweaked sideboard for my expectations of the meta.

My current 75:

[deck]Creature (18)
4x Chandra's Phoenix
3x Firedrinker Satyr
4x Rakdos Cackler
2x Skyknight Legionnaire
2x Stormbreath Dragon
3x Young Pyromancer

Enchantment (4)
3x Chained to the Rocks
1x Legion's Initiative

Sorcery (2)
2x Mizzium Mortars

Land (23)
1x Boros Guildgate
11x Mountain
3x Mutavault
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple of Triumph

Instant (11)
4x Lightning Strike
4x Magma Jet
3x Shock

Planeswalker (2)
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
Sideboard (15)
2x Angelic Edict
3x Boros Reckoner
1x Chained to the Rocks
1x Flames of the Firebrand
2x Glare of Heresy
1x Hammer of Purphoros
2x Mizzium Mortars
3x Skullcrack[/deck]

I've been playing 2x Pithing
Needle on MODO as I don't have any Mutavaults and find it a fairly solid card to board in against MUD and MBD (MUD you can nix frostburn weird, mutavault, jace and thassa, for MBD you cover mutavault, packrat and underworld connections and against G/x, lock down Garruk / Ooze / Polukranus), but I've got 3 mutavaults of my own in my paper deck, so decided to swap the needles out for Glare of Heresy, as I expect to face U/w and G/w in my local meta.

If I had a 4th mutavault then I'd play it over the FotFB in the sideboard, as a way to make my 5th land drop more consistent when I side in the Angelic Edicts. The Angelic Edicts are great on MODO as I seem to play MBD every other game, but not sure if they will be as relevant in my local meta, but going to keep them in and see what happens.

One other thing I noticed when doing my sideboard plan is that I seem to sideboard in the Hammer for a lot of matchups (great against control, great for top deck wars like R/w devotion, and playable against aggro as CA
as you will trade most of your opening hand 1-4-1). Was considering moving it to mainboard, but not sure what to cut (possibly one of the dragons?).

[vundo]

Paper + pen is less prone to errors and can let you keep track of mulligans, who's on the play, and known cards in opponent's hands (say if they reveal some cards off garruk).

Those tokens are fine - a lot of people use pokemon cards as tokens. They can be the same colored sleeve I believe as long as they are identifiable as tokens.

You may need to buy new sleeves if there are significant wear or marks on a small portion of cards. It's good to be safe and have a judge check your sleeves before the tournament. If a problem still occurs, you can use your prior checking as backup evidence.

-There are a lot of different aspects of large tournaments but one of the most important ones is endurance and stamina. The later rounds get significantly tougher because your opponents become much better in addition to you being exhausted. You can make sure to eat well and drink plenty of water but that can be preference. A few
players I know, including myself, prefer not taking a lunch break because it messes with our mindsets. A good breakfast is probably always a good idea though as well as proper hydration.
-Try not to tilt even if your opponents luck out really hard - that's just an aspect of magic that you have to deal with. Even if youre losing or playing bad, don't dwell on it and just try to play tight and solid.
-If this is one of your first large tournaments, I suggest staying even if you start 0-2 or 0-3 just to build your stamina. Playing for 8+ hours can be extremely exhausting.
-Friendly banter is nice at FNM but some people use it for their advantage in competitive tournaments. If you are talking with your opponent before the game starts, try not to let them extract information about your deck. Don't mention what you lost to, what you beat, or accidentally flash the bottom of your library. Information is essential in magic and youre not being a dick by hiding info.

I'm sure you know this but pyrodragons
often has a large variety of lines of play. Matches are relatively quick so don't hesitate to think carefully on your turn. Don't make silly mistakes because you are rushing.

sorry if what i've said is unhelpful
GL

[poppa_f]

Also don't forget to sideboard out after each match (I know this sounds obvious, but I've forgotten myself and had opponents do it as well).

Also make sure to check the slip if your opponent drops. The last tournament I played in, my opponent dropped, but ticked my name by accident, so I was almost kicked from the tournament for not noticing

[magicdownunder]

I've decided to play PyroDragons in SCG Open in Orlando this weekend. I only live about 2 hours away from Orlando, but my usual weekend plans have kept me away from large tournaments in my area.

I switched to the deck in early November, disappointed with my FNM results running GW Aggro; basically following MDU over. I have 2 months of unprecedented success locally with the deck, top 8ing every single tournament I played with it except 2; (they were an SCG IQ in which I found myself in a huge point tie for the last few single digit spots, but was 12th based on tie breakers, the other was last weeks FNM, in which I had a very disappointing 2-3 record, losing to Esper Midrange, GR Monsters, and American Control.)

My list is the same as purp's old deck. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=60930 Only 1 land is different; I play the extra Mutavault.

My confidence in the deck has been shaken since it's poor performance at the first FNM of the year; I know most of you have moved more towards the Big Boros type decks. However, there is no way I can learn a new deck in a week, (or just days at this point) so I'll just have to do as well as I can with this. I still believe the deck is very strong, even vs wide open meta.

Some questions for players more experienced at large paper tournaments:
When I play paper magic, I usually just use a plastic life counter to keep track of my life and I use a d6 and a d10 to keep track of my opponent's life. Would this be okay at a large event?
I also use fire pokemon cards in different color sleeves to represent my Young Pyromancer tokens and I have a sleeved fire energy card that separates my
main deck and my sideboard. Is this okay?
Should I buy new deck sleeves? My current ones are not bad, but not super new either.
Any general advice?

Swap Pyrewild Shaman for MD SBD, then cut Rod and SBD from the boards for 2x LB and you'll have a solid deck while I know many of us have moved to Boros Aggro, PyroDragon is actually better suited for the current meta game because of the extreme rise of Esper Aggro.

For Paper Magic, follow the advice you just heard and also try and drags some friends with ya!

IMO playing red is a mental exercise since we have such limited resources its really easy to misplay and waste our burns/removals early so tilting is really bad for us - with mates around ya its much easier to keep your morale going even if you did poorly.

[Guttler]

-If this is one of your first large tournaments, I suggest staying even if you start 0-2 or 0-3 just to build your stamina. Playing for 8+ hours can be extremely exhausting.

I'm sure you know this but pyrodragons often has a large variety of lines of play. Matches are relatively quick so don't hesitate to think carefully on your turn. Don't make silly mistakes because you are rushing.

GL

Thank you for wishing me luck.

I'm 100% planning on staying for every round. I've heard the SCG commentators mention that sometimes enough people drop that even a rather poor record can finish top 64. I made the decision to avoid going in a carpool, so that I wouldn'
t feel pressured to drop and leave if my friends had dropped earlier in the day. Actually, the only two tournaments I played in that I didn't top 8 in the past 2 months, the IQ and last weeks FNM; I found myself relying on others for rides and the drivers always dropped or wanted to drop before the end; there is a superstitious part of me that connects my those two coincidences.

I actually skimmed over the RDW primer earlier, there is a line in there that goes "just sit on your hands and look at the ceiling while you think about the plays; all the best plays are written on the ceiling. (If it's good enough for Russian grandmaster chess players, it's good enough for us.)" I found that humorous, helpful, and am curious as to who the grandmaster was that did the hand sitting and in what tournament. Hopefully Z will remember.

Let me also run through this play:
So you're playing game 3 vs a G/r devotion deck. We all know them, lots of planes walkers and a few gigantic creatures like
Polokranos and Arbor Colossus. You are on the draw with your red deck. They open with a turn 1 land into elvish mystic. You unfortunatly do not have shock, but you do have Sacred Foundry, Chained to the Rocks. How do you value CttR in this match up. It's pretty much the only card that can deal with a giant fatty, but you can also hope they kept a risky hand and are relying on the elf for mana, but then again I'd board out 11 one and two drop creatures against them, making the beatdown plan look way more midrange then aggro. Additionally, if the manaramp goes into a Garruk, it wont matter how many CttRs you draw because they are drawing 2+ cards a turn with many of them guaranteed creatures.

Swap Pyrewild Shaman for MD SBD, then cut Rod and SBD from the boards for 2x LB and you'll have a solid deck while I know many of us have moved to Boros Aggro, PyroDragon is actually better suited for the
current meta game because of the extreme rise of Esper Aggro.

MDU, you're the one that got me started down the path to red town; I remember watching your videos when you still played selesnya aggro and followed your footsteps a little while after you switched to PyroRed. I get what you're saying about Last Breath. I'd probably love playing it in the board of Big Boros version with 4 SBD's; but as of right now, my deck list may as well be set in stone. I've been playing the same list unchanged for so long and am comfortable using the old sideboard plans that you invented for MOCS11 revenge.

Last Breath is just such a hard card to justify in my mind. Well it's good vs weenie aggro, but then I don't know what to cut from the main for the LBs and it delays my clock. I'd know exactly what to cut for vs Mono Blue, because they just take the place of 2 cards that already come in. Do I bring it in vs Mono Black, seems very counter productive when we are on the beatdown plan there,
but I suppose it does nip Pack Rat and NVS in the bud. I don't see LB doing any work vs Midrange, which is actually where the PWS is good, because it can take out their x/5 blocker or Sylvan Caryatid.

MDU, now you really have me questioning if I should switch to LB in the board; I had a single copy of LB in the deck when I first made, but cut it because "you can't give them life", but that was also before I played SBD main. I really really trust your opinion, due to your vastly superior amount of experience with the deck on MODO; but then I have to rework all my sideboard plans to play a card that I haven't played with in over a month and two days before a large event.

[Purp]

Wall of Text inc.

@Guttler

A lot of us moved to Big Boros due to the rise in Red White devotion on modo. But in a paper tourney such as an Open (especially one down here in the South), you can expect to face about very tier 1 deck. That being said, PyroDragons is a great choice!

My list was great, but I will explain some card choices. In that list we were on the 4 reckoner, 2 FoM plan. We would usually board this in against Devotion matchups where just clogging the board with reckoners and then dealing damage FoM. At the time, this was the most successful strategy vs mono u. However, since then, Domestication is seeing a lot more play, both main deck and sideboard, we have gotten off of that plan. It is now smarter to go over them(and all devo strategies[excluding mono black]).

The pyrewild shaman is great tech, however we all find having another dragon just solidifies our deck better. Last breath just
increases your answer to MoW from 5, to 6. Giving them 4 life is no where near as detrimental as you think, eventually they will just run out of gas, and your phoenixs and dragons win the game. Last breath is also good verse white weenies, because it essentially kills every card in their deck. Even exiling NECROMANCER(this is particularly relevant with the rise of esper aggro too[again this was not a relevant card when I played my version]). Giving them 4 life is again no big deal, because SBD completely blanks them.

Some of us have moved to 6 1 drops, in favor of 2 mizzium mortars maindeck. In theory, if you make it to top 8, I think its safe to say you will face every major archetype twice. GR Monsters on the rise, Blood baron on the rise(when I played the deck, BBV was not being main decked, and BW control or mono b splash white was not around yet), those matchups MD Mortars is much better than 2 FDS.

So with the idea that devo matchups will be more frequent (where FDS gets worse throughout the
game) we added Selfie Legionarre for extra evasion. I def think this a card you can either choose to play with, or without. I think the added removal happens to be better in an Open environment (you would expect in the earlier rounds to see mono U and more aggro).

You wouldn't bring LB in against mono b.

Lazers List

---

[deck]Creatures:19
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells:18
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Chained to the Rocks
3 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Flames Of The Firebrand

Lands:23
11 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
[/deck]

With this maindeck, your chances of not having a 1 drop on turn 1 are only decreased by 11%. Not much of a big deal when you are increasing your answers to so many other cards.

With all that being said, PLAY WHAT YOU ARE MOST COMFORTABLE WITH. No matter what deck
configuration you choose, ultimately it will be how you pilot it.

I recommend buying new sleeves before every big event. It is not worth possibly receiving a game loss for "marked" sleeves. Opens usually have supers, which I love. Or get some Dragon Shields from a LGS, they are very durable. You will also get a SCG deck box when you register, with a divider in it. This will help keep your MD and SB separate. I would also put tokens on the side with my SB, and only bring them out once you have triggered a YP$. If an opponent shows me a token before the match starts, I gain a lot of information. If its a rat token, I can assume Mono B. Elspeth token or Assemble token etc... Also, like others said, fix your deck after every round. before each new round, count your SB and double check none of the cards are still in your MD

Score. Pad. Use one. Taking the time to write down life totals allows you to SLOW down your thought process. When you are writing the damage you have taken, you become
consciously aware of whats going on. It allows you to think and evaluate the situation you are in. Also, in case there is a time when a judge needs to be called, you have tactile evidence of life totals. Providing proof to a judge is the difference between a decision going in or against your favor. If an opponent reveals a card (Jace for example) you can write down whats in their hand, allowing you to keep track of cards you don't know.

I also highly recommend writing down your SB strategy. KEEP IN MIND YOU CAN ONLY LOOK AT THIS DURING SIDEBOARDING BEFORE G2 AND G3, and at NO time else. It really helps keep you confident in your decisions. Nerves won't allow you to second guess yourself, because YOU know your plan. I tend to write this on the inside of the last cardboard page on my pad.

Also, your GR scenario is too vague. Do i have answers to turn 3 domri in my hand? temple? etc

[Helios]

When I play paper magic, I usually just use a plastic life counter to keep track of my life and I use a d6 and a d10 to keep track of my opponent's life. Would this be okay at a large event?

No, this is not ok. a) If you get into a dispute about life totals, and your opponent is using paper, their word trumps yours. b) If there is a rules dispute and you have to back up the game state, you have no way of proving what your life total was, or if you have or have not taken damage from any given thing. c) I may be wrong, but I'm 99% sure it is actually in the DCI floor rules that pen & paper are required. Plus all the other benefits folks listed above.

Re: sleeves- If you are concerned about them, buy new sleeves and have them on hand. Then ask a judge when
you get to the event.

[LaZerBurn]

With all that being said, PLAY WHAT YOU ARE MOST COMFORTABLE WITH. No matter what deck configuration you choose, ultimately it will be how you pilot it.

Brilliant post Purp I agree with everything with ^^this^^ being the most important With 2 days to go I personally think you are better playing the deck you are most familiar with, rather than switching at the last minute and finding yourself uncertain but it is your call

[Toddington]

Lazers List

---

[deck]Creatures:19
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells:18
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Chained to the Rocks
3 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Flames Of The Firebrand

Lands:23
11 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
[/deck]

This list has 19 spells, is there one too many Chained to the Rocks?

Is it acceptable to play the full four Mutavaults here, especially if bringing in Reckoners?

Post-SB you could expect to have 6 white spells against some match-ups, does this deck ever need to slam some guildgates? That only hurts CttR I suppose.

[LaZerBurn]

Well spotted! - I took out FotF, though I clearly didn't update the list

This is built to my personal preferences so I think 4 Vaults is fine, you're not aiming to hit curve with your Reckoners (but if you are concerned just run 3, or bring in the Mountain for a Vault when you bring Reckoners in) and I've never has any probs without BorosGG ~(I hate CIPT lands) but you could run one (or a Plains) if you wanted too

[Helios]

I only run 3 Vaults...because I traded a creased Vault for 2 pack-fresh Stormbreaths. Feels good >:) Though in all seriousness the 4th Vault has relatively marginal value, I'd rather have the consistent mana to cast Reckoner, turn 2 Zealot, etc.

[Valdarith]

All this discussion about PyroDragons has me thinking. I know MDU has been playing Boros Aggro lately with Stormbreath Dragon and Skynight Legionnaire. The reason for the latter is that a lot of decks are clogging up the ground with threats and flying is very relevant. With that in mind, I'm wondering if for a Young Pyromancer shell whether or not blue would be the better splash. What does blue give?

1) Spellheart Chimera. No haste, but he does have flying AND trample. Doesn't die to Nightveil Specter, Shock, Magma Jet, Ultimate Price, or Pharika's Cure. Gets better as the game goes on. Indirect synergy with Young Pyromancer.
2) Turn / Burn. Combat trick that doubles as a burn spell against control decks so it's never a dead card. Kills Blood Baron.
3) Izzet Staticaster. Ruins mono blue and other fringe decks with x/1s.
4) Mizzium Skin. Decent postboard tech vs mono black and UWx Control.

I'm thinking of
something like this.

[deck]
Creatures (24)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Spellheart Chimera

Spells (16)
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Turn / Burn

Lands (20)
4 Steam Vents
4 Izzet Guildgate
2 Island
10 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Mizzium Skin
4 Skullcrack
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Peak Eruption
2 Izzet Staticaster
[/deck]

Pros: lower curve, explosive, flexibility with Turn / Burn, Spellheart Chimera can be huge in late game.
Cons: no scry land.

Thoughts?

[rcwraspy]

In a list where only Young Pyro cares about your instants/sorceries count you can go as low as 12. You have 16, which is fine, but now you're adding 4 more creatures that care about that count. I'd probably drop 1 Satyr and 1 Chimera to find room for 2 more spells - maybe 2 Mortars.

[Purp]

I think I like it.... but... no scryland. and dealing with DD becomes much more difficult

[Valdarith]

Turn / Burn does not care about DD.

[LaZerBurn]

Amcfvieira tested the U splash quite a lot earlier in the season - he said Turn/Burn was nuts but that ultimately the U splash wasn't as good as the W splash

[Valdarith]

But was he testing Spellheart Chimera? The meta has evolved toward evasion being a much bigger deal.

[Purp]

Turn / Burn does not care about DD.

While yes, but turn//burn requires either 4 or 5 mana to deal with him... no bueno

[Valdarith]

Turn / Burn does not care about DD.

While yes, but turn//burn requires either 4 or 5 mana to deal with him... no bueno

You mean three mana.

I find the tradeoff to be acceptable. I got tired of my Chained to the Rocks getting bounced or destroyed, and Turn / Burn is always live.

[Guttler]

Turn / Burn does not care about DD.

The one bad thing about Turn & Burn vs Desecration Demon is that you really can't be on the 'feed the demon' plan, since due to obscure layering rules the power and toughness modifications from counters are applied after a specific effect that sets a cards power and toughness to a certain number, so if the demon has 2 counters, he'll be a 2/3 after Turn and wont die to Burn. Granted the card is still great.

I know this is absolutely too cute, but Master of Waves does say all elementals get +1/+1, even the red ones. Even without any devotion to blue, he is still 4 power on 2 bodies, worse then huntmaster of the fells, but certainly better then many other 4.

[Valdarith]

Understood on the counters. I can't remember the last time I had two counters on an opposing Demon and needed to kill it.

Thought about Master of Waves, but it is indeed too cute.

[Purp]

DD becomes a 0/1 until end of turn... then hes back to being a 6/6. Now you have to deal with him again.

[Helios]

Cons: no scry land.

-Turn / Burn < Chained to the Rocks in almost every case.
-Turn / Burn doesn't really deal with Master at all, unless your opponent is bad
-Turn / Burn is nowhere near as good against Demon, unless your opponent is bad
-No Scry Land
-Spellheart can be huge, but has neither haste nor relevant protection the way Stormbreath does.
-Loss of MAJOR sb cards.

Are we REALLY talking about dealing with Desecration Demon again? This deck has no issue with Demon. None. At all. Mono Black is a fine matchup; not fantastic. But fine.

[LaZerBurn]

Just need to have a variance rant, feel free to just pass this post by

Whine, whinge, grumble :flame:

---

I just went 1-2 drop in the DE, losing twice to MonoB, yes fucking twice! Why? Fucking variance To have this happen 4 times in a row in a favoured match up is really frustrating!!!

R1 G1 I keep a decent hand but have no removal for Demon/Gary. I haven't wasted it, I just never draw any and I don't draw any for 4 further turns and I die. Ho hum, it happens.
EDIT - I took the wrong line in this game, could have had an extra turn.
G2 Another decent hand but he had removal for everything I played for the first 5
turns then drops Pack Rats with open mana and 2 Vaults and I don't have enough removal. Ah well it happens, still a bit though.
EDIT - ditto G1

R3 G1 I draw 11 land and 8 spells. I can still win but I draw land for 3 turns.
G2 I stick on 2 land despite 2 Jets
EDIT - 2 incorrect lines (one only possible after making the first) would have given myself 2 more draws at least

On a positive note I beat MonoU by choosing the correct line and actually winning a game by play skill

Rant over, carry on

EDIT - I just watched the replays, VERY educational indeed

[Guttler]

[quote="Helios » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:21 pm

-Turn / Burn doesn't really deal with Master at all, unless your opponent is bad
[/quote]

Turning Master will cause it to lose the elemental pumping ability and all your opponent's sea ponies will die due to having 0 toughness. However, they can still stonewall all your ground guys with their 2/1 protection from red creature. However, if they get a 2nd one online...

[Helios]

This is true, but it's still a temporary solution. Chained requires them to have the 1-2 cards they are playing that can deal with it, and you can take that into account when calculating swings.

[Valdarith]

It also loses protection from red.

[Guttler]

It also loses protection from red.

Yes, but you wont be able to Turn & Burn it in the same spell correct? IIRC, Fuse works like you're playing a spell with 2 targets, so that you wont be able to declare MoW as your Burn target because Turn hasn't resolved yet to rob it of it's protection.

[Valdarith]

That is mostly correct. When you fuse the spell it actually becomes red and blue, so Master won't be a legal target for either side. You have to cast Turn by itself to target Master.