Dies To Removal Mafia - Game Over (Mafia Win)

[Wraith223]

I don't know what to make of stardust. I think wraith has made some good points but I always have so much trouble reading stardust that I am weary of lynching our best player...

I don't like freedom's last few posts. I think it was obvious what wraith was trying to say and he seems to be trying to twist the words around to get an easy lynch.

Ham needs to post something, anything. A read or a case. Until he does, my vote is going to be on him.

Vote: Ham

Kpaca, you replaced into the game and then said nothing except that you are vannila town. If you are town then you need to help us. There are starting to be some new posts so start contributing something.

RCW is now confirmed town, he should post some reads and help us out.
n
Thank you for reminding me about your double vote, GR, I had forgotten.

I'm not sure if the NK would be RCW or not...I never said how many bus driver shots I have.

Unvote, Vote Ham

Apperantly , I can't get anyone to go after stardust with me, thus Ham it is. I hate to go after lurkers, but damn...after studying past games; lurkers tend to be scummy.

@Rcw, How are my posts confusing? I present clear info and try to be as open as possible. Freedom has been acting rather scummy in recent posts. If there is a significant movement to vote freedom; i will vote freedom. He has "dropped the hammer" when he previously did not want to. Very sligh way to appear town folowed by a vote to kill a towny. Shaddy voting is scummy to me as Stardust has done.

[rcwraspy]

@Rcw, How are my posts confusing? I present clear info and try to be as open as possible. Freedom has been acting rather scummy in recent posts. If there is a significant movement to vote freedom; i will vote freedom. He has "dropped the hammer" when he previously did not want to. Very sligh way to appear town folowed by a vote to kill a towny. Shaddy voting is scummy to me as Stardust has done.

They're getting better - like this one and your point about Freedom.

In general though, you confuse me because sometimes (particularly early on) you seem to approach the game with the mindset you'd imagine a real life cop/detective would for a real life crime. This is an internet game with different characteristics, some of which operate
opposite what you may assume in real life.

[Wraith223]

@Rcw, How are my posts confusing? I present clear info and try to be as open as possible. Freedom has been acting rather scummy in recent posts. If there is a significant movement to vote freedom; i will vote freedom. He has "dropped the hammer" when he previously did not want to. Very sligh way to appear town folowed by a vote to kill a towny. Shaddy voting is scummy to me as Stardust has done.

They're getting better - like this one and your point about Freedom.

In general though, you confuse me because sometimes (particularly early on) you seem to approach the game with
the mindset you'd imagine a real life cop/detective would for a real life crime. This is an internet game with different characteristics, some of which operate opposite what you may assume in real life.

I had just binge watched NCIS and Castle. I was quite abit primed for that. As of now, I amjust looking at the looking at what wa said and comparing it to what happened. Freedom is the only one that is feeding pure comment evidence so far that is pointing scum.
I believe this is a simple list of folks that freedom seems to give little or no correspondence with.
Stardust
Ham
G_R
Iamopen2 (just wanted to add for everyones purpose)

[Wraith223]

Damn it! I can't watch TV and type!

EDIT- "I am just looking at what was said".....

[Stardust]

WTF Suga! How can you set a deadline for tomorrow when you've got players who haven't posted since Dec 19th!? Prod or replace hamfactorial and extend the deadline accordingly. You can't let people slide that bad then punish the town by cutting the Day short.

[Stardust]

Also, we're lynching zemanjaski toDay. hamfactorial is probably scum, but Z is scum.

[Stardust]

Last thing, you lynched Pie for info, yet haven't mentioned any info you got from that lynch. Did you even look into it? What have you got?

Still waiting for this, BTW...

[Stardust]

Pretty sure he confirmed he wasn't a 1 shot days ago so I need to check that

Still waiting for this too.

The fact that he hadn't confirmed is the reason why your actions surrounding this was scummy. Especially after rezombad's lack of flip and imopen's claim, there was no reason to push rcw. 1) Confirming town for no reason can actually harm the town since it gives the scum clearer targets, and 2) If he was 1-shot, what then? That would not have confirmed him scum. If he was 1-shot, lynching him without behavioural analysis to back it up is at best awful play, but much more likely scum motivated.

[Wraith223]

Also, we're lynching zemanjaski toDay. hamfactorial is probably scum, but Z is scum.

If you think Ham is scum and there is a significant consensus that he is; why are you squrewing around with a Zem vote? No one but you wants to vote for him. You back out of votes at the last minute. You lost credibility. My gutt says you are defending Ham.

[Wraith223]

Also, your effort to stall the game with a zem vote is neat means to get a no vote and a free night kill.

[Stardust]

Wraith, Suga is going to extend the deadline and replace hamfactorial. He has to. If he doesn't I'll be here before noon tomorrow. If you need one more vote for a ham wagon to prevent a no lynch, I'll be there. But Z is a better choice. I'm trying to kick start this game and get people involved again.

[rcwraspy]

@Stardust, Z replaced back in playing LMD's role. What did you think of LMD while he was around? Did he post enough to give you any sense at all?

Also, did you see my question about Z RP'ing Kaitscralt in his original role (the doc role that was day killed)? Do you think he was doing a good job of RPing him then, and do you see differences in posting now?

[Stardust]

You unvoting is irrelevant. I was following your arguments, not your vote. You unvoting doesn't make your argument that Pie might be scum disappear.

Here Z is talking about my unvote and why it shouldn't have swayed his opinion. A simple unvote shouldn't have, but Z saw the same thing in Pie's townie rage as I did (and said as much shortly before trying to get him lynched). My unvote combined with Z's own read should have swayed his opinion. Instead he got bloodthirsty. 100% serious, this is by far the scummiest thing that has gone down all game. By far. There is no way Z is town.

I need to go and make a re-read; do some analysis of what was happening with Pie.

Reiterating again that he needs to do a reread, but still hasn't done it. For those following along at home, this is a scum tell.

No, it isn't. Scum already knows rcwraspy's alignment so they have no need to push for clarification. Town doesn't. Having confirmed Town helps Town. You need to explain how this is scummy, instead of just saying it is and hoping others will follow along.

You're asking why scum would push to confirm someone as town? Well, because you're creating a false dichotomy where rcw is either 1-shot (and scum) or not (and town). Determining that with certainty helps scum in either case. Either they lynch the 1-shot unlynchable townie, or they confirm that this player is indeed
confirmed town and therefore someone to target at Night rather than during the Day.

It is bizzare that when it comes to Freedom you expect me to listen to "strong" players, but when it regards Pie, I am expected to make up my own mind independant of the discussion of others and ignore those same strong players. Which is it Stardust? Can I listen to others or not?

Explain the inconsistencies in your argument.

There is no inconsistency. You can read freedom however you want to. My point is that he can read Pie however he wants to. Reading Pie as town was certainly possible (you did so yourself). There was no deadline. Pushing freedom to vote Pie showed your thirst for blood more than anything else.

[Stardust]

@Stardust, Z replaced back in playing LMD's role. What did you think of LMD while he was around? Did he post enough to give you any sense at all?

No. LMD lurks a bit as town. Lurked a bit more than usual here maybe. That's the best I got on my previous read of his posts.

Also, did you see my question about Z RP'ing Kaitscralt in his original role (the doc role that was day killed)? Do you think he was doing a good job of RPing him then, and do you see differences in posting now?

Yes, I saw that. That raised red flags for me too (and I think I asked about it shortly
after he replaced in, but never got a reply). I haven't caught any significant differences in posting. What do you see?

[Stardust]

You unvoting is irrelevant. I was following your arguments, not your vote. You unvoting doesn't make your argument that Pie might be scum disappear.

Here Z is talking about my unvote and why it shouldn't have swayed his opinion. A simple unvote shouldn't have, but Z saw the same thing in Pie's townie rage as I did (and said as much shortly before trying to get him lynched). My unvote combined with Z's own read should have swayed his opinion. Instead he got bloodthirsty. 100% serious, this is by far the scummiest thing that has gone down all game. By far. There
is no way Z is town.

Quoting myself here for emphasis. Z keeps focusing on the rcw as unlynchable thing which is easier to defend against. The above is the meat of my case on him. Read back to where he pushed Pie's wagon. That is not a townie. It's bloodthirsty scum.

[Stardust]

Jones! You're confirmed town, good job. Wanna help me out here?

[Wraith223]

Another point you missed Stardust on Zem. He wanted to re-test Rcwraspy. That is wasting time to keep a no vote going to stall the game out through the holidays.

Evidence is evidence and I will present it all.

[Stardust]

Another point you missed Stardust on Zem. He wanted to re-test Rcwraspy. That is wasting time to keep a no vote going to stall the game out through the holidays.

Evidence is evidence and I will present it all.

When was this? You're saying he wanted to lynch rcw a third time? Can you quote this?

[Wraith223]

No, the need to re-lynch again to prove town was a wate of time. At least I thought so before. It actually never confirme town as we never saw the blue typing. I need to see the body or credentialsfor me believe town. Zem put up a significant rally to gt this done. It's just a small point to consider.
Where they hell is everyone else?

[Stardust]

No, the need to re-lynch again to prove town was a wate of time. At least I thought so before. It actually never confirme town as we never saw the blue typing. I need to see the body or credentialsfor me believe town. Zem put up a significant rally to gt this done. It's just a small point to consider.
Where they hell is everyone else?

Oh. Well, now that rcw is proven to be proper unlynchable, he must be town. That ability on a scum player would be unbalanced since we would need our vig to shoot him. So far there's no evidence we even have a vig at all (since rezombad was likely scum). To make that ability balanced on a scum player I'd say we'd need maybe 5 vigs in the game. So... yeah, confirmed town.

[Wraith223]

No, the need to re-lynch again to prove town was a wate of time. At least I thought so before. It actually never confirme town as we never saw the blue typing. I need to see the body or credentialsfor me believe town. Zem put up a significant rally to gt this done. It's just a small point to consider.
Where they hell is everyone else?

Oh. Well, now that rcw is proven to be proper unlynchable, he must be town. That ability on a scum player would be unbalanced since we would need our vig to shoot him. So far there's no evidence we even have a vig at all (since rezombad was likely scum).
To make that ability balanced on a scum player I'd say we'd need maybe 5 vigs in the game. So... yeah, confirmed town.

Day kill scum ability seems rather off. It is complete Bull shit that we don't know if Rez was scum or town. If they die, we should know.
The new replacement for Doclawless is less active than Doc was. Useless. To many lurkers.

[rcwraspy]

Another point you missed Stardust on Zem. He wanted to re-test Rcwraspy. That is wasting time to keep a no vote going to stall the game out through the holidays.

Evidence is evidence and I will present it all.

When was this? You're saying he wanted to lynch rcw a third time? Can you quote this?

As far as I can see and remember, Z only pushed to test my unlynchability twice.

However, (G_R) just posted that we should do it first thing Day3. If this is a scumtell, what does it say about (G_R)? How does it jive with his claim of being a double-voter? Note that
this wasn't confirmed with a vote-count from Suga (that I could see on a quick read through to find it). Suga only said the lynch didn't go through again.

[rcwraspy]

Also, did you see my question about Z RP'ing Kaitscralt in his original role (the doc role that was day killed)? Do you think he was doing a good job of RPing him then, and do you see differences in posting now?

Yes, I saw that. That raised red flags for me too (and I think I asked about it shortly after he replaced in, but never got a reply). I haven't caught any significant differences in posting. What do you see?

I do see differences, even before the hiatus the game's trying to come back from. However, I'm trying to determine whether those differences are due to:
n
1. The difference between RPing Kait and not
2. The difference of being town vs. scum
3. Being scum and using "I RP'ed Kait last role" as a cover for different posting

To do that, the first thing I need to know is whether he did a good job RP'ing Kait. I don't know Kait, though he's been posting more often in the Fires of Salvation thread lately, and I can see the similarities.

[Stardust]

What similarities do you see? I see number 3 as most likely, even if he was actually roleplaying.

[rcwraspy]

What similarities do you see? I see number 3 as most likely, even if he was actually roleplaying.

Similarities between Kait's posting in the Fires of Salvation thread and Z's posting day 1 before he was killed?

Sheer quantity, pretty much. However, Kait's are typically short and very stream-of-consciousness whereas Z's were long and stream-of-consciousness.

Again, don't know Kait's posting well enough.

[Stardust]

Okay, and what differences do you see in the posting of townZ (Kaits) and scumZ (current)?

[rcwraspy]

Okay, and what differences do you see in the posting of townZ (Kaits) and scumZ (current)?

less aggressive. More wagon-y. Could be explained by being burned with day vigs in two consecutive games while being aggressive, or could be a role change. He also got really defensive when you pushed him, but that coincides with the aggressiveness.

Also, Day2 since replacing in, I'm having a hard time finding posts where he's not tunneling.

Are you seeing differences - at least ones that are significant enough - or are you hanging your hat on his pushing for my re-lynch Day 2 being super-scummy?

[DroppinSuga]

OK. Dusty makes a great point. I will prod Ham and the deadline will be extended. I will extend the deadline until Jan. 10 at noon EST.

[Stardust]

OK. Dusty makes a great point. I will prod Ham and the deadline will be extended. I will extend the deadline until Jan. 10 at noon EST.

And prod/replace hammy? Seriously, you need to resolve that.

[DroppinSuga]

I stated I will prod Ham.

If he says that he can't do it, I'll replace him.

[Stardust]

Okay, and what differences do you see in the posting of townZ (Kaits) and scumZ (current)?

less aggressive. More wagon-y. Could be explained by being burned with day vigs in two consecutive games while being aggressive, or could be a role change. He also got really defensive when you pushed him, but that coincides with the aggressiveness.

Also, Day2 since replacing in, I'm having a hard time finding posts where he's not tunneling.

Are you seeing differences - at least ones that are significant enough - or are you hanging your hat on his pushing for my re-lynch Day 2 being
super-scummy?

I'm hanging my hat on his pushing for Pie's lynch being super scummy. Your relynch thing is where I'm hanging my scarf (not as critical).

As for posting differences, people change posting styles depending on where they're at in the game. Early-mid Day 1 posting is much different than later, once you have more info. I suspect you'd find differences in my posting once we hit later Day 1 and into Day 2, and I have the same role PM as ever. The fact that townZ was entirely early Day 1 and scumZ was entirely later, I'm hesitant to base a lynch on that at all. Major posting differences, sure, but I wouldn't recommend looking for the small stuff. If you want to find something scummy there, you'll have more luck talking about how he seemed nervous about there being differences, mentioning the Kaits thing right off the bat revealing that it was on his mind.

[Stardust]

I stated I will prod Ham.

If he says that he can't do it, I'll replace him.

Sorry, I'm dumb. Thanks.

[DroppinSuga]

Ham will be staying in the game.

[hamfactorial]

Ok, I'm here. Talked to Suga via PM, I'm not feeling up to speed at all but willing to catch up if you're all ok with it.

If not, I'll replace out. Maybe Z can manage to replace twice in the same game? New DTR record!

[Stardust]

Day 2 has only run a few pages so far. Catch up and post.

[hamfactorial]

Ok, I'll post my day 2 thoughts during lunch (2.5 hours from now).

[Stardust]

You know what, it doesn't even matter. We've got such a solid town bloc, even if you don't count me among the townies. I said before that I thought the mafia were within these five: hamfactorial, rcwraspy, imopen2, LMD and G_R. You can add rezombad, Wraith and me to that list if you like, but as a trade we can remove rcw (unlynchable) and G_R (double voter).

Probably imopen2 and Wraith are town.

If that's correct, that leaves us with hamfactorial, zemanjaski and me as the possible scum. Even if rezombad was town, we're still (very likely) allowed one more mislynch, meaning that we'll need to resolve the last scum after lynching those three. However, if rezombad was scum (which I think he was) things are looking great. We're still allowed two more mislynches, meaning that we can lynch all three on that list and have one more lynch to spare.

Basically what I'm saying is, I'm pretty sure the scum team is
rezombad, hammy and zemanjaski. I would be willing to vote either of them. PoE is pretty awesome when you've got solid townies.

re

[rcwraspy]

You know what, it doesn't even matter. We've got such a solid town bloc, even if you don't count me among the townies. I said before that I thought the mafia were within these five: hamfactorial, rcwraspy, imopen2, LMD and G_R. You can add rezombad, Wraith and me to that list if you like, but as a trade we can remove rcw (unlynchable) and G_R (double voter).

Probably imopen2 and Wraith are town.

If that's correct, that leaves us with hamfactorial, zemanjaski and me as the possible scum. Even if rezombad was town, we're still (very likely) allowed one more mislynch, meaning that we'll need to resolve the last scum after lynching those three. However, if rezombad was scum (which I think he was) things are looking great. We're still allowed two more
mislynches, meaning that we can lynch all three on that list and have one more lynch to spare.

Basically what I'm saying is, I'm pretty sure the scum team is rezombad, hammy and zemanjaski. I would be willing to vote either of them. PoE is pretty awesome when you've got solid townies.

re

Assuming a Rez (dead), Ham (ultra-lurker), and Zem scumteam, lynching Ham may be the safest but also the weakest play to make. I'm not opposed, like I said earlier, but unless he starts posting like he just said he would, it really doesn't give us any information after a flip. He's also a great bus-target for any of his scum-teammates because of his inactivity, so we can't rely on people not on his wagon being scum.

Basically that means I need to read Z and Rez's posts for any potential interactions between them after Z subbed back in, because if Z is scum then he's the better target for a lynch toDay.

Stardust, why is Freedom cleared on your list? He kept making scumslips even after
the one everybody laughed off as being noob town.

Do you believe G_R's double vote claim, and if so, is that EVER a scum ability?

[Stardust]

freedom's response to pressure feels very town to me and reminds me of myself, really (I've made similar "slips" a few times, and responded in more or less the same way). Pie went to the grave saying freedom was town, and I trust his read too. Also, zemanjaski - who is scum - has offhandedly been going after freedom (though if Z flips town, I'd at least go back and take a look). I don't remember any other scum slips - want to point me to them?

Yes, I believe GR. He may as well prove it now, but double voters are public. Acting like he's a double voter, then claiming he's a double voter, only to prove that he's not a double voter would look pretty awful and be pretty pointless. It doesn't happen. As for whether or not it could be a scum ability, it's possible, but very uncommon. It has the potential to make the game very swingy. A double voter scum basically means you need to balance the game around 4
scum instead of 3, except that if the double voter gets killed it's like killing 2 scum in one. If GR's not town, it's much more likely that he's a SK (but we haven't seen any evidence of that yet).

[Stardust]

Suga! Votecount please!