R/b Aggro aka "Dos Rakis"

[MattT]

I'd say drop the Toil//Boils for a singleton Slaughter Games and a Whip Pedros. Games is that extra help vs Esper and MonoB that you might miss, but still doesn't wreck the deck plan. (And switch a Rat for Tymaret md imho )

[Pedros]

Another result
https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/M ... rn/6488839
https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/M ... rn/6488852

LowlandsWizard is someone who just copied my list, I asked him and told him about this forum.

I forgot you have dreadbore in sb Then you have too many slots vs agro as mortars are similar to dreadbore in most matches (only Polukranos, Colosus and Demons are bigger than that).

vs Black devo I also like having Whip (even 1) as it
helps against their reach plan with Garys. Also turning all you creatures into damage is nice as we often have full graveyard.

How do we sb for Esper Midrange? This deck seems really attacking from diferent angles. And is quite popular with a pros, so having sb plan is important. Dragons are good here as they run only 1 Ultimate Price,2 Far Aways and 3 Supreme Verdicts post board (they have 4 doomblades, detention spheres and dark betrayals, but dont think they will keep doomblades in a deck full of those creatures).

Pack Rats are quite bad (Verdicts and Spheres), however cacklers and jesters also not so good.

[photodyer]

I think it is really time to put to bed discussion of more black-heavy cards in the CURRENT version of this deck; running 13 black sources is simply not going to cut it if you want to run cards like TKA and Necromancer, and Necromancer is sad in a non-human list. If you want to tweak a list that plays these cards, here is the list that Nuwen and Fate were on early...I don't think it has the viability of the Rat-based list, but I drop it here as an example of what you would play some of these other cards in:

[deck]Nuwen Rakdos[/deck]

Current points of consideration:
-Swapping out one gate for a basic land
-working Thoughtseize into the board
-working Dark Betrayal into the board

The list originally included Chandra MB, but she was just too hard on the mana. Of note, even playing these 3 gates felt clunky at times and we were seriously considering dropping to 2 just for the speed of the extra basic. Note that this list doesn't even try to get by with Mutavault and still we had mana complaints because early gate hands just killed the deck tempo.

Again, I am just throwing this out for sake of reference to some of the tangential cards, not promoting a change. If I were to try to do anything with it at this point, I would likely drop Marauder and go +3 Necromancer and +1 Erebos in the main to open 4 slots in the side for Thoughtseize and Dark Betrayal.

[RaidaTheBlade]

I like having the anti-aggro, as both aggro and midrange are pretty big right now -shrugs-

Anywho, I did face an esper mirange/humans in the finals, and sorta cobbled together the sideboard plan from half and half the white weenie and the esper control.
"-Sb: -4 Cackler, -4 Pack Rat, +1 Erebos, +2 Toil//Trouble, +1 Whip, +3 Mortars, +1 Dreadbore"

Basic premise was that pack rat is basically dead here because of verdict and sphere. Cackler is also not amazing since they've got a lot of creatures and aggro, and turn 1 I can usually just play a citpt land instead and be okay. I kept jester because You can sandbag him till later if you have to, and get a 3-power haster out for some damage once they've gotten run down...

I brought in 1 erebos because I thought they might have lifegain in the sideboard, because I wasn't 100% familiar with the exact list. Looking at the normal sort of list I think it's still
good, since they've got obzedat main and blood baron side.

I brought in the toil//troubles just to punish them for draw because I again thought they had revs in the board. I'd not bother with these after looking back over the list.

The whip, mortars, and dreadbore I'm still fairly happy with given the aggressive nature of that list.


If I add a second whip to the side, I'd want it here, and I'd also like some dark betrayals since they run ghost dad. So my current sb plans, if I were to have the change discussed earlier of -1 betrayal +1 whip from the tourney sb, would be:
-4 Cackler, -4 Packrat, -1 Jester, +1 Erebos, +2 Whip, +3 Mortars, +1 Dreadbore, +2 Dark Betrayal.

[LaZerBurn]

@ Raida - What a difference a week makes! It's great to see you posting so confidently and your posts are excellent - insightful, well thought out, informative and helpful Keep up the good work!

[RaidaTheBlade]

@ Raida - What a difference a week makes! It's great to see you posting so confidently and your posts are excellent - insightful, well thought out, informative and helpful Keep up the good work!

Glad you think so, I guess a little confidence boost can go a long way, ehh?
Sill have a way to go before I'm pulling my own weight here, but it means a lot to hear that, though. Thanks!

[Pedros]

To be honest I would even try double Ereboses, as they got their own whip, baron and obzedat.

So current sideboard:

2 Dark Betrayals
3 Doom Blades
2 Whip of Erebos
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Erebos
2 Toil/Trouble

That leaves us 1 slot for control matchup. I dont think I want 3rd dreadbore to be honest, as it doesnt do much (we already have 8 slots for agro, while we lack sb slots for control (especially UW as for esper we board in mortars) (dreadbore is decent, dont think we want to overboard with reactive cards) It might be sth like Slaughter Games? 3rd Toil/Trouble? Rakdos's Return?). If we want 3rd dreadbore we might cut mizzium mortars (however barons are quite good vs us ;/)

Sideboard plan:

Mono Blue / Red Agro / White Weenie / Gr Devo / Rx Devo (in last 2 matchups dreadbore is better than mortars)
-4 Cackler, -4 Jester, +3 Doom Blade, +2 Whip, +3 Mortars

Esper Control
-2 Ultimate Price, -4 Pack Rats,
+2 Erebos, +2 Mortars, +2 Toil / Trouble (if we have stuf like Rakdos Return,3rd toil or games we might think to board different?)

UW Control
-2 Ultimate Price, -4 Pack Rats, +2 Erebos, +2 Toil/Trouble, +1 Whip (I dont think we want 2 here, but it is better than price or rat), +1 Slaugter Games/Rakdos Return/ Toil/Trouble

Esper Midrange
-4 Pack Rats, -4 Rakdos Cackler, -1 Jester, +2 Dark Betrayal, +2 Whip, +3 Mortars, +2 Erebos (we need to discuss this, I think it might be needed)

Black Devo
-3 Dragons, -2 Magma Jets, +2 Betrayal, +2 Erebos, +1 Whip (discuss 2nd whip here, dont think it is needed. Magma Jets doesnt kill much here, only rat and vault, and recurs phoenix. However I like it more than mortars).

BW Control - this sb is hard. Do we want 3 mortars for 4 barons or 2 are fine?
-3 Dragons, -4 magma Jets, +2 Betrayal, +2 Erebos, +2 Mortars, +1 Whip or +3 Mortars

If we only board 2 mortars vs BW Control, I would then split sb in 2 Mortars/1 Dreadbore.
To be honest SB have to be made
to take advantage of it vs decks. If we never use 3rd mortars against BW, why have it in board?
Do we even need last slot vs control? vs Esper we need 2 mortars IMO (as rakdos return or slaughter games might not get the job done). vs UW or UWr I think yes, we need 1 more slot (2 ereboses, 1 whip and 2 toil/troubles).

I hear from a lot of people that they dont like Toil/Troubles. Discuss.

[JdubCT]

Toil/Trouble, when it works, is amazing. But it's a card that I feel like has to be seen in your opening hand to have its strongest effect and it's something that I never -want- to see in the 3 mana cost slot of my curve. Anything including a drawing engine would feel better to me. But then, I still haven't found Chandra to be terribly useful.

[RaidaTheBlade]

I'm pretty much in 100% agreement with everything you've got here, Pedros

One of the reasons I like the third dreadbore is that it removes planeswalkers, which esper and u/w love.
Honestly, if I were think of something to bring in against them instead, it might be rakdos return, but I think dreadbore might just be better against them, as weird as it sounds. Stop their planeswalkers, stop one of their major win-conditions.



I digress, lemme see if I have any thoughts on the sideboarding plans...

Against esper control I don't know what we could change when we settle on a 15th card. I can't think of too much I'd remove to make room for a seventh sb card. MAYBE jet, but that'd be reluctant.

I can't disagree with the second erebos against esper midrange either. If we stop that, then they're in trouble.

Against black devo, I think keeping in the jets is the correct option. Mortars can remove gary and
specter, but the scry is just so important here. Not to mention the phoenix recursion.

I think that we need the third mortar vs b/w devo. Baron is an absolute bastard. Whip helps, but I think that being able to remove the guy who can block most everything we've got with impunity is more important.



I see the thought on going 2 mortar/1 dreadbore, but I think that blood baron is too popular at the moment. Mortars is our only real 1-for-1 answer to it, and keeping that thing from taking over is just so important.



As far as the potential 15th cards, let's look at them one at a time.

-Slaughter Games is a good 'magic bullet' type card, but we were mainly discussing bringing it in vs control. Against them, the issue is that they have so many threats. Elspeth, ghost dad, blood baron, and aetherling are all really dangerous depending on what varient you're facing. It can help, but it doesn't stop them cold by any stretch.

-Rakdos's Return is better vs control, since if it resolves for
enough then they are in a LOT of trouble. Removes both card advantage and hurts them bad. I like it.

-Toil//Trouble competes with Return in a lot of ways, but it's main advatages over return is the casting cost and the flexibility. Trouble only costs 3, and hits hard, but casting it turn 3 can mess with our curve a bit, and reduce the threats on-board. The toil part will rarely get used, but on occasion can come in handy. We already run 2 of these, and I've never been hugeky impressed. I think that a third of these would be weaker then a 1-of return.

-Then there's my suggestion which I know you don't like as much as other options, Dreadbore. I will agree that I tend to think of it as anti aggro, but I think it ears discussion as being anticontrol as well. It doesn't kill many of their creature threats, but it does shut down planeswalkers, which can be HUGE. Specially since they tend to tap out for them, and then can't counter it



I'd have to say that if I had to pick right now, it'd be between rakdos's return and dreadbore. Return acts as a sniper shot to the face if it resolves, but tends to get the most use later in the game. Deadbore can shut down a last-ditch planeswalker, and still keep up the creature aggression a bit earlier in the game.

It really boils down to one having a chance to just win, the other having a bit more flexibiltiy in terms of uses.

If you are 100% set on wanting the 15th to be exclusively anticontrol, then return would get my vote, otherwise I think the third dreadbore bears thought...

[Zooligan]

Seems like every time I have an opportunity to cast TT it's either for the same kind of damage I could get from a Lightning Strike, or the opponent has high counter potential (open mana and a hand full of cards). Occasionally I may have the mana to cast and they are tapped out and they are flush with cards, but many times that combination of factors just doesn't gel. For me, anyway.

[Keftenk]

I think Toil//Trouble never really loses its value versus Esper and UW Control. My opponent almost always has 4-6 cards in hand because I only put down 2 creatures over their creature count. Also, they're constantly refueling their hand with Sphinx's. Versus everything else, it's lack luster. I've tried using it against RB Control and American Control, but they have burn packages that leave their hand somewhat lowish.

I agree with Chandra though. With how aggressive I can be with DosRakis, I don't see Chandra really helping that cause. I don't doubt its value, but I've seen it many times where I'd have 2 in hand and it just meant...nothing, either of them. Perhaps I just have a harder time deciding between which would be the better play, Chandra vs Exava vs SBD. Obviously the situation dictates which should get played, but in a deck like Pyro Boros. Chandra was very, very strong. It just doesn't seem that way in
DosRakis. I almost leave nothing to block, maybe that's why I feel like she is a bit underwhelming. Opposed to in PyroBoros, I almost always had something to block for her.

[Zooligan]

The ability to recur Phoenix with her 1 and to filter thru cards with her 0 are just so good. Plus she sucks up damage that would be going against your life total. Idk, good card seems good.

[magicdownunder]

Esper Midrange is a thing on MODO are you guys sure about cutting a DB? Also I agree on the 2nd Erebos for that MU.

[RaidaTheBlade]

I'm not, cause dreadbore is awesome, but pedros does have his points.

I think this might turn into a 'lets test and see' sort of thing. I'll likely run the third dreadbore at fnm and then at the ptq this weekend unless severe argument is given to make me reconsider.

Either way, we're getting silly close to a 'perfected' list for the moment, which is awesome.

[magicdownunder]

I'm not, cause dreadbore is awesome, but pedros does have his points.

I think this might turn into a 'lets test and see' sort of thing. I'll likely run the third dreadbore at fnm and then at the ptq this weekend unless severe argument is given to make me reconsider.

Either way, we're getting silly close to a 'perfected' list for the moment, which is awesome.

I'm in favor of a third dreadbore as well - it could even be a singleton HDF so it would work vs MoW (I just want to point out before you all start saying "But
Z said this" I didn't like HDF either if you scroll back a few pages you'll notice it - it wasn't until I fought Predos's early build that I started to respect it).

[RaidaTheBlade]

Blargle. Not sure on that one. HDF is good, but it's a good bit more difficult for us to cast... Hmm, definitely something to think about though.

[magicdownunder]

Blargle. Not sure on that one. HDF is good, but it's a good bit more difficult for us to cast... Hmm, definitely something to think about though.

Your ok with 2x whips but not one HDF?

[RaidaTheBlade]

Heh, fair enough. I meant in comparison to dreadbore.

I was about to type out asking if the added benefit was worth the higher cost and color difficulty, but then I realized that if it hits MoW, then the answer is yes imo o.o

Now to go stick my head in a hole for being silly.

[Pedros]

Yeah you are right, dreadbore can be HDF. It also solves obzedat problem which is awsome

[Zooligan]

Yeah you are right, dreadbore can be HDF. It also solves obzedat problem which is awsome

Just one tho, right, in SB. So 2 UP/2 DB main, and the HDF side...

[RaidaTheBlade]

Yeah... I like that plan... Means I have to go buy a hdf, but small sacrifices

[hamfactorial]

Ah, Dos Rakis my old friend. We meet again! I'm pleased to see development on this deck, as I ran it last year to great success. This might be the only thing that gets me to play Standard, as [mana]RB[/mana] is my favorite color combination in Magic.

[Zooligan]

Dos Packis, at the moment...

[hamfactorial]

The creative naming convention is still around

[Purp]

Chandra vs Whip. What do you guys think Chandra is so good against?

[JdubCT]

Chandra vs Whip. What do you guys think Chandra is so good against?

The few times I've actually had her be useful were on a board stall where I was building up rats and they had no way to remove her. So, basically, mono green. I've never had her be relevant vs 90% of the field and always feel like "If this were a whip/erebos/any other 4 cmc card even desecration demon I'd be happier".

In most matches I have no way to protect her to draw value from her. So she ends up being a single falter or card draw followed by a dead lady on fire in my graveyard.

[rcwraspy]

Been lurking this thread for a while. I haven't been playing much in the past couple of months so haven't been posting much in the competitive forums. Thanks all for the great work, and congrats on all the great results.

A few thoughts regarding current discussion:

1. I think Dreadbore is the best removal spell in the format right now. It's lightyears better in this deck than a card like Hero's Downfall and the only meaningful target it can't hit is Master of Waves, for which you have cards like Ultimate Price and Doom Blade. I'd want 4 Dreadbore in my 75. EDIT: I say I think it's the best removal spell, but I know it's not seeing much play. I think the reason is because it's in 2 colors not many people are putting in the same deck right now - except decks like this.

2. Personally, I value Chandra over Whip. I only have a little practice with this deck so far, but it feels like a "glass cannon&
quot; type of deck. While Whip can recur something for a turn and give you some lifegain, I don't think it equals the advantage you can get with Chandra. The +1 does 2 things for you - gets their life total incrementally closer to your goal (0) and falters a blocker - potentially a fatty - so your dudes can get in the red zone. Whip doesn't let you swing in as often as Chandra does, and often when you swing all you're gaining is the lifegain, no red zone contact. Whip operates on a limited resource - your graveyard - which your opponents can interact with (though those cards aren't seeing play right now). Chandra operates with a much larger resource - your library - which, while your opponents can interact with it, will almost always have a greater pool for you. The deck also has a non-0 amount of Scry available to it right now, making Chandra's 0 better. The biggest downside to Chandra in this deck is her 0 exiling a card like Dreadbore, Ultimate Price, Doom Blade, etc., and you have no targets
for them. Odds are, though, that if you're in that situation you're winning anyway, and you can always choose to +1 instead.

Again, I haven't had much practice with this deck - certainly not to the extent most of you have had - but those are my thoughts, for what they're worth.

[JdubCT]

Been lurking this thread for a while. I haven't been playing much in the past couple of months so haven't been posting much in the competitive forums. Thanks all for the great work, and congrats on all the great results.

1. I think Dreadbore is the best removal spell in the format right now. It's lightyears better in this deck than a card like Hero's Downfall and the only meaningful target it can't hit is Master of Waves, for which you have cards like Ultimate Price and Doom Blade. I'd want 4 Dreadbore in my 75. EDIT: I say I think it's the best removal spell, but I know it's not seeing much play. I think the reason is because it's in 2 colors not many people are putting in the same deck right now - except decks like this.

nDreadbore also does not hit Obzedat. It's amazing removal but never forget that it's sorcery speed and, as such, you can't do things like deny them devotion on a gary drop etc.

[rcwraspy]

Been lurking this thread for a while. I haven't been playing much in the past couple of months so haven't been posting much in the competitive forums. Thanks all for the great work, and congrats on all the great results.

1. I think Dreadbore is the best removal spell in the format right now. It's lightyears better in this deck than a card like Hero's Downfall and the only meaningful target it can't hit is Master of Waves, for which you have cards like Ultimate Price and Doom Blade. I'd want 4 Dreadbore in my 75. EDIT: I say I think it's the best removal spell, but I know it's not seeing much play.
I think the reason is because it's in 2 colors not many people are putting in the same deck right now - except decks like this.

Dreadbore also does not hit Obzedat. It's amazing removal but never forget that it's sorcery speed and, as such, you can't do things like deny them devotion on a gary drop etc.

Good point re: Obzedat, but I disagree with not being able to deny them devotion for a gary drop. You just have to do it at sorcery speed.

[LP, of the Fires]

Is toil//trouble better then thoughtseize?

[Zooligan]

For this type of deck I think yes (even though I don't particularly like TT), but an awful lot of modern R/B aggro decks run Thoughtsieze, so maybe it's worth considering. Hamfactorial is a R/B Modern player, whatcha think ham?

[hamfactorial]

I think Thoughtseize is an excellent sideboard option to bring in against decks that have a must-answer play that you can't stop after it hits (an enchantment, an infinite combo you can't interact with at instant sleed, a card that strips your hand, etc.)

The issue with Thoughtseize is that it doesn't play to the board, only disrupting future plans that your opponent hasn't actually implemented. It also doesn't help against topdecks, since they can always draw the same card you made them discard the next turn. Thoughtseize will never save you when you're behind.

If your deck is blindingly fast and can win with just a small edge vs a reactive deck, Thoughtseize is the tool you want. If your deck isn't fast enough to win through a single card stripped from the hand, I think you're better off playing more threats or a card that can strip your opponent of every problem card like Slaughter Games.

[Keftenk]

Great analysis.

[MattT]

Very good point Ham. I rectract my earlier statement about Slaughter Games I think Rakdos's Return might be better in general for the 15th slot.

[hamfactorial]

Thanks, dudes. Remember, I haven't played Standard since INN rotated, but I've played lots of RB and used both Slaughter Games and Thoughtseize in Modern.

Rakdos's Return destroyed midrange decks like Jund last year, and it was a decent threat against counter heavy matchups like UW and Esper. Forcing them to counter it instead of a creature was big game, especially with all the haste. The old Dos Rakis deck plus the Whip/Rat tech would have been broken beyond belief.

[Jack]

I would be fucking overjoyed just to play with Aristocrat in this standard.

[Zooligan]

Good article on mana bases, with Java code! - http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... ur-spells/

[Zooligan]

OK, so say we were to play Slaughter Games in the SB. Against other decks, how do you guys think these threats would rank? Am I leaving any out for any of the matchups?

Mono Green – Garruk / Polukranos / Bow / Nylea
Mono White – Spear / Heliod
Mono Blue – Thassa / Master of Waves
Mono Black – Gary, Merchant of Ass Hotel / Whip
Esper Control – Aetherling / Blood Baron / Elspeth / Jace / Sphinx’s Rev
Esper Aggro – Obzedat / Whip
U/W – Aetherling / Elspeth / Jace / Sphinx’s Rev
B/W Control – Blood Baron / Obzedat
G/B – Polukranos / Scavenging Ooze / Boon Satyr
G/R Monsters – wow, too many threats to pick just one
Small Aggro – keep it out

[Purp]

Some unlucky testing tonight verse mono blue. ugh ptq so close, deck choice soo far

[LP, of the Fires]

Played a match vs. tube. Deck is still sweet. Haven't tested vs. control, but I did realize toil trouble is sweet cause it draws cards. Definitely was boarding in divination vs. Selesnya as my plan was 1 for 1s until I could get 2 for 1s.