Dies To Removal Mafia - Game Over (Mafia Win)

[Wraith223]

Stardust and Wraith seem to be acting with a lot of co-ordination today. They're both taking issue with the same points in tandem, and both have now moved in on me; Stardust at least had me null yesterday, but Wraith had me as likely Town. Moving me from Town to scum based on my pushing a vote for CRWraspy, that was not only explained in detail and AGREED TO AS BEING GOOD FOR TOWN BY MULTIPLE POSTERS is very questionnable;
and they're both doing it seemingly out of nowhere.

Did they have much if any interaction in the last game day? Or did they avoid each other?

It's a little strange that Wraith is already discussing serious lynching too, the day has only just begun.

I was posting my intentions cause Saturday might be busy and Sunday-Tuesday will be hard for me to get to a computer. Since the votes reset, I have not cast a vote so.....

You are fairly aggressive on a pointless lynch now. My opinions so far have been wrong or are now very confused. Stardust has made very good points on you, but you know my thoughts on her so far. Freedom is a duh. Ham is just acting scummy with the side line sitting. I am listening with an open mind. Just giving you all my standings to help.

I am not aggressive at all about lynching Raspy. It isn't going to happen. I just wanted to test his claim and make sure he was being truthful. You understand why right? I don't want there to be any
misunderstanding between us; sure I was the one pushing that we test his claim, but G_R, Freedom, DocLawless and CRWraspy himself all thought it was a good idea for reasons I have previously explained. I know we see Mafia theory differently, and obviously you come from a law enforcement background, so maybe what I was doing doesn't appeal to you for some reason? I basically just wanted to be sure that he was, 100% definitely, unlynchable Town.

We've done that now and I have zero interest in any arguments against rcwraspy now. Is that clear?

I need to go and make a re-read; do some analysis of what was happening with Pie.

I get your points. Stardust backing out of her vote did not set well with me, but she was right about him being town. Only scum would know that or she is that good. She raised a few good points about you, but you are correct in that we now know RCW is Town (not a wasted vote as I had said, good job). I am not fully convinced you are scum as Stardust has laid out
cause here back out vote was weird in timing. We will see as the day progresses.

Off game, I got sucked into working the front desk (it's not work but boring) at the airport today thus I can play till 5pm, but Sunday and Monday will be travel days creating availability issues.

Scum- Ham, Freedom, and possibly G_R.

Undecided- Zem

[Jack]

That's not much of a list. Are you implying that the other 5 players are in the undecided pile or in the unmade town pile?

[Jack]

Personally, I'm a little wary of imopen2's bus driver claim. He comes off as seeing a strange circumstance (rez's banning without a reveal) and trying to explain it with a scenario that involves him being confirmed town.

[Wraith223]

That's not much of a list. Are you implying that the other 5 players are in the undecided pile or in the unmade town pile?

Town
Rcwraspy
Doclawless
Stardust (for now I guess)
Iamopen2 (for now as no counter evidence has really been presented.)

Happy?

[Stardust]

Cool. I'm ready.

Vote zemanjaski.

And just for the audience, confirm your reasons are:

1. my pushing for our testing of raspy's claim
2. my pushing of an information lynch on Pie, when I had at one point, had him as Town

Y/Y?

"The audience"...

Confirm, though I'll reword those slightly.

1. Your pushing to test rcw's claim without considering the possibility of a 1-shot unlynchable townie.
2. Your pushing of a lynch on Pie when you read him as town in every aspect you commented on.

[( G_R )]

That's not how you post a vote count, you slacker.

[( G_R )]

Who do you want to lynch, zem?

[( G_R )]

Personally, I'm a little wary of imopen2's bus driver claim. He comes off as seeing a strange circumstance (rez's banning without a reveal) and trying to explain it with a scenario that involves him being confirmed town.

Do you think he's lying?

[( G_R )]

I don't have much time, tons of work to do.

RCW was the NK target. I used my bus driver ability to deflect any actions taken against him onto Rez. I suspected that rcw would be the NK target since he is unlynchable and confirmed town. I also didn't like rez's role-fishing at the end of the day and I felt that the unlynchable was probably balanced by a scum vig. I have no idea why his role was not revealed to us tho

More later

What makes you so sure? Couldn't rez have been the target?

[( G_R )]

Never mind. I just read what a bus driver is.

[zemanjaski]

Who do you want to lynch, zem?

I don't know honestly, I'm real busy right now getting ready for two PEs and freaking out about spending 10 days with Pip's extended family...

I need to re-look at yesterDay and some of what's happened toDay then start asking questions. Look forward to some more text walls.

[Jack]

Personally, I'm a little wary of imopen2's bus driver claim. He comes off as seeing a strange circumstance (rez's banning without a reveal) and trying to explain it with a scenario that involves him being confirmed town.

Do you think he's lying?

Well, I'm not so sure he's telling the truth. He never really said or did anything to substantiate his claim. More importantly, nobody else said or did anything to substantiate it.

When Rez shot zem 1.0, you called him auto-town, as a daykill vig is almost never given to scum. However, as the
day progressed and we learned more about how Suga created the game, we became more uncertain about Rez's alignment. Even with raspy claiming to be unlynchable, we doubted him a bit and tried to lynch him for a second time to prove that he was town. I guess my point is that you really don't know anything to be true about somebody until they're dead or something happens that verifies their position (such as rez's shot or the failed lynches on raspy). The way I see it, there are three ways to change my null read on imopen2:
1. Somebody backs up his claim with irrefutable evidence
2. Somebody backs up his claim with a very strong argument
3. We lynch him

[Jack]

Hmm, I just read up on bus driver myself, and it doesn't say anywhere that the ability would cause Rezombad to not be revealed. I think I have 2 possibleble explanations for this (although there could be more)
1. This was built into Rez's character
2. Somebody targeted him with an ability. This ability could only come from a scum player, since the less the town knows, the more the scum benefits. This would mean that somebody on the scum side expected Rez to die, meaning that Rez would have been the original target for the night kill.

[Stardust]

I think the first is true. If the second were true, it wouldn't have been rez being targeted, it would have been rcw because of the bus driver. The only person who might have had motivation to keep rcw's alignment secret would be rez (since that's what was casting doubt on his dayvig shot) but since it was a nightkill that doesn't make sense anyway.

All that is assuming imopen is telling the truth, but I really think he is since I can't see the scum killing rezmo and burning their anti-flip ability for it.

Freedom, given that you just read up on the bus driver role, can you explain your thought process for the second scenario there?

[Jack]

In second scenario, there is no bus driver, and Rez was the original NK target.

[Jack]

All that is assuming imopen is telling the truth, but I really think he is since I can't see the scum killing rezmo and burning their anti-flip ability for it.

Why is that? It seems to have confused me well enough.

[Jack]

It actually seems less likely that they'd burn the anti-flip on raspy, since he was more town to everyone than Rez.

[Stardust]

If there's one death at night, absent other information, who killed them? Pretty safe to say it was the mafia, right? Given that, you can assume the target was town, even if their flip is hidden. That's why it doesn't make sense to use an ability like that for the night kill. Probably it was scumrez's static ability.

[Jack]

So you think it's 7:2 right now?

[Stardust]

Yes, I think rez was probably scum. It's a little awkward since we won't know for sure when we're in lylo (lynch or lose, where we need to hit scum or lose the game), so it might be better to assume he was town as far as counting goes (so we know when a mass claim will be beneficial, for example).

[zemanjaski]

Cool. I'm ready.

Vote zemanjaski.

And just for the audience, confirm your reasons are:

1. my pushing for our testing of raspy's claim
2. my pushing of an information lynch on Pie, when I had at one point, had him as Town

Y/Y?

"The audience"...

Confirm, though I'll reword those slightly.

1. Your pushing to test rcw's claim without considering the
possibility of a 1-shot unlynchable townie.

I don't need to consider it at all. rcwraspy claimed completely unlynchable and when questioned about whether it had any attached conditions, clarified that it didn't. I don't think it benefits Town at all for raspy to be lying here, and there is more valuable in having a confirmed Town member than any other outcome. It doesn't matter now, anyway, for two reasons:
a. we already tested it again, with raspy himself being involved (and you were involved too - why support my test lynch if you're against it?)
b. imopen2 has claimed a bus driver ability that was used to protect raspy; this means scum tried to NK raspy which confirms he is Town (if we can believe imopen2).

2. Your pushing of a lynch on Pie when you read him as town in every aspect you commented on.

Yes, all the elements on my read were Town. As explained several times previously, many other more experienced players were making a case for
him being scum. This saw me eventually change my read from Town to null. For reasons also already explained multiple times and agreed to by many other posters, we felt this ultimately served Town.

@ everyone. I am away on holiday at the moment, will be chiming in where I can (I'll be killed IRL if I sit on a computer and do a re-read, ha); so will still comment on things; but I can't do any substantive re-read or analysis for another few days sorry.

[Stardust]

When did rcw claim? Earlier today in response to your pressure? Yes. Once he claimed, you're right, that's why I hopped on. Forcing him to claim and voting him before he did so was very scummy.

Stop hiding behind others for you read on Pie. Those "many others" either voted earlier or were pushed into it by you. You're not one to follow. Take freedom, for example. Despite strong insistence from experienced players, you threatened to go after him just because he didn't want to vote Pie. Reconcile that.

[Jack]

I probably won't be posting much (if at all) over the next week. Christmas stuff for the next two days, and then I'm going on vacation until the 31st.

[( G_R )]

Hohoho game on pause.

[imopen2]

I've been getting kinda apathetic about this game but I don't want to replace out cause replacing out is for pussies.

I wish it didn't take 2 hours to make one good post...

I feel like this exchange between Zem and stardust is a little petty but that leads me to believe that it is either scumdust using his experience to push Zem to a lynch or scumzem getting caught in a legitimate mistake. I kinda doubt that stardust would be desperate as scum since he was so calm during KNM, but it's probaby a mistake to clear him based on that. Even if we assume Rez was scum with a static ability that prevented his role from Wong revealed (that's the only thing that makes sense to me), it would still be really bad to mislynch again, especially if it is stardust since he is by far the best player among us.

I was planning to do a re-read of G_R and I never got to it. Perhaps I'll have time this weekend?

tl;dr hope everyone'
s holidays are going well

[Wraith223]

Is the game still on pause? Not anymore!

After reading Stardust's points on Zem, I found she has a compelling arguement. Even if zem tries to discredit the logic/facts; he would still sound scummy.

Vote Zem.

[Wraith223]

Vote Zem I did not bold my vote.

[( G_R )]

I love how Stardust keeps getting referred to as a female. Wait... you're a dude, right?

[( G_R )]

In second scenario, there is no bus driver, and Rez was the original NK target.

I like this post BTW.

[Wraith223]

I love how Stardust keeps getting referred to as a female. Wait... you're a dude, right?

is stardust a he or she? i keep seeing references to "her" in other threads.

[zemanjaski]

When did rcw claim? Earlier today in response to your pressure? Yes. Once he claimed, you're right, that's why I hopped on. Forcing him to claim and voting him before he did so was very scummy.

No, it isn't. Scum already knows rcwraspy's alignment so they have no need to push for clarification. Town doesn't. Having confirmed Town helps Town. You need to explain how this is scummy, instead of just saying it is and hoping others will follow along.

Stop hiding behind others for you read on Pie. Those "many others" either voted earlier or were pushed into it by you. You're not one to follow. Take freedom, for example. Despite strong insistence from experienced players, you threatened to go after him just because he
didn't want to vote Pie. Reconcile that.

So I cannot be swayed by others? Rezom, rcwraspy and Stardust aren't people I should ever listen to? Your logic is ridiculous. How can you definitively know whether or not I will take account of the reads of others? Your logic is again defective.

I threatened to go after Freedom because as I have stated many times, I don't consider him confirmed Town and have listed, repeatedly, reasons why I still hold him under suspicion.

It is bizzare that when it comes to Freedom you expect me to listen to "strong" players, but when it regards Pie, I am expected to make up my own mind independant of the discussion of others and ignore those same strong players. Which is it Stardust? Can I listen to others or not?

Explain the inconsistencies in your argument.

[zemanjaski]

Is the game still on pause? Not anymore!

After reading Stardust's points on Zem, I found she has a compelling arguement. Even if zem tries to discredit the logic/facts; he would still sound scummy.

Vote Zem.

This is inconsistent with your stated approach earlier in the game. Why are you now closing your mind?

[Wraith223]

Is the game still on pause? Not anymore!

After reading Stardust's points on Zem, I found she has a compelling arguement. Even if zem tries to discredit the logic/facts; he would still sound scummy.

Vote Zem.

This is inconsistent with your stated approach earlier in the game. Why are you now closing your mind?

Sorry guys, sorry. I was in a candy, Mountain Dew, various sugary foods, and nerd drink induced haze while looking at this between playing between games of air soft cqb. Christmas brings my old friends back for a big
get together.
unvote

[Wraith223]

Alright, got a clear head now and am no longer in CQB bloodlust. I reread alot of waht was posted by Zem and Stardust. Both have really good points, but it's just a feel good session. I prefer looking at the body and the scene of the crime.
1. Rez died
2. RCW was voted to die
3. I am open claims he saved RCW and killed Rez.
4. Rez's ability had to have only one shot.
5. Stardust claimed he or she would die first and needed to get a point across
6. Stardust knew IP was NOT scum (was right)
7. Zem pushes for test lunch of rcw
8. Stardust call that scum tactics by yesting one shot ability, but many new it would not work anyway based on wiki searches of roles.
9. Zem defends himself from attacks
10. Stardust continues to attack Zem without considering why she was not night killed in the first place.

Based on these facts, I am seriously considering Stardust not being town. The facts she knows on who is town is
always right, but who is scum has been wrong so far. I have been wrong, but have not given any prophetic calls that were right. Zem has been wrong just as often as I (except the test role of RCW), but has not made any prophetic calls or bailed out of a vote. Ham has been seriously way to quiet and I think Stardust is doing all the play calls for the scum. The third scum will be hard to find as G_R and freedom look good for it, but no one seems interested in them.

Based on my findings, I VOTE STARDUST cause she knows to much and was NOT killed in a night kill. Iamopen 2 could be lying, but saving rcwraspy to kill rezembod is just to good a result to miss as Stardust should have been the easy target.

[zemanjaski]

Raspy, as the confirmed town, what are your thoughts?

[Wraith223]

Raspy, as the confirmed town, what are your thoughts?

If we can't kill him; he has to be town. If he is scum; then here are only means to kill him.
1. Rez has to shoot him to get rid of him. Bad mod game then.
2. Raspy has to be the last scum left to be lynched if that is his ability.

[DroppinSuga]

Mogadishu Jones has replaced DocLawless

[Wraith223]

Mogadishu Jones, hey what's up.

You wanna know how I got these scars?

could not help it. I play serious here.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Someone give me a tl;dr of the game cause checkbox, vanilla town and as vanilla town I'm too damn lazy to read 17 pages of mafia.

[Wraith223]

Someone give me a tl;dr of the game cause checkbox, vanilla town and as vanilla town I'm too damn lazy to read 17 pages of mafia.

Useless much? Not reading 17 pages of what has happened shows scum in my opinion. If you don't read it; are you a liability then? Taking someone else's interpretation of the past events could lead you to vote with scum.