Dies To Removal Mafia - Game Over (Mafia Win)

[zemanjaski]

You've not commented on Ham ONCE; now all of a sudden the do nothing fence sitter wants to lynch him?

FOS: Freedom

[DroppinSuga]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:
Wraith223 (1) - GR
hamfactorial (1) - freedom
InflatablePie (5) - rcwraspy, Wraith223, InflatablePie, zemanjaski, DocLawless
Stardust (1) - Rezombad
Rezombad (1) - Stardust

With 11 alive, it's 6 for a lynch

[zemanjaski]

Not voting: Hamfactorial, imopen2

[Jack]

Raspy dying would've told us heaps. You think Ham is more likely than not scum? You're ok with making a meaningless vote?

You're right. That was a useless vote. Now the question is whether or not I should put the Hammer down or wait for someone else to do so.

[Wraith223]

Freedom, you are not helping your cause for not being scum with a vote for someone (Ham) that has been silent. Makes no sense.

[zemanjaski]

Does it hurt fence sitting?

Why pick Ham now? Explain.

[Jack]

Actually... HAMMERTIME! Vote: InflatablePie

[DroppinSuga]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:
Wraith223 (1) - GR
InflatablePie (6) - rcwraspy, Wraith223, InflatablePie, zemanjaski, DocLawless, freedom
Stardust (1) - Rezombad
Rezombad (1) - Stardust

That's a lynch!

Write-up in the next post.

[DocLawless]

Actually... HAMMERTIME! Vote: InflatablePie

[Jack]

What are your uncertainties, Doc?

[DroppinSuga]

InflatablePie argued and argued that he wasn't like that, but the decision was made. He IS one of them, he has to be. The ban hammer was dropped.

InflatablePie is iamabadman, Vanilla Townie.

The Night phase will last until Thursday at 12 noon EST or until I have received all actions.

No posting until the next day phase or you will be mod killed.

[DroppinSuga]

Just a heads up, if you are NOT going to take an action tonight, please tell me so. This will speed the night phases up.

[DroppinSuga]

His incessant usage of memes had finally backfired. The mods knew he had to be one of them. His posts were just too dumb.

Rezombad has been banned. He was ???????????

DAY 2 BEGINS NOW!

With 9 alive, it's 5 for a lynch.

[( G_R )]

Good morning.

Vote Freedom

[( G_R )]

Why the heck don't we know who rezombad was?

[zemanjaski]

First point of business is testing rcwraspy's claim that he is unynchable. We can go and commence normal discussion after.

Vote Rcwraspy

If he comes up clear ill start working through my suspects.

[Jack]

I was thinking the same thing.

Vote: rcwraspy

Is he completely unlynchable, or only 1-shot?

[zemanjaski]

Raspy should have no problem voting for himself either.

[zemanjaski]

Only 1 way to find out!

[hamfactorial]

Vote rcwraspy

[zemanjaski]

And let's put him to six votes, not 5. Remember that Rezombad said that there might be an increased lynch threshold, and we didn't test that last time.

[( G_R )]

I'll test it when the time comes.

[zemanjaski]

Does it hurt to test it now? We can always come back to freedom.

[zemanjaski]

Not voting for him slows us down in getting to real business.

[( G_R )]

I want to be vote number six, please.

[( G_R )]

I hope that was clearer.

[zemanjaski]

Thanks for clarifying.

[rcwraspy]

If we're voting me just to prove it's static that's fine, and I'll join in.

After I ask a question. To the experienced players - are there roles out there that clear PRs? Like, a vanilla-izer or something?

If yes, do we really want to risk this?

[Jack]

Also, are there roles that prevent a reveal on death, or is there a better explanation for what happened with Rez?

[zemanjaski]

Raspy, I'm pushing this purely as a way to clear you. You and Rez were the most likely Town, so being certain of your truthfulness goes a long way towards helping Town IMO.

But good questions guys. I know there is a Mafia Roleblocker, which turns off activated night abilities, but afaik there isn't a during the day equivalent; http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Roleblocker

as for Rez not being revealed on death I think the Role is mafia ninja or sonething; means the NK info isn't revealed. http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Ninja

[( G_R )]

If we're voting me just to prove it's static that's fine, and I'll join in.

After I ask a question. To the experienced players - are there roles out there that clear PRs? Like, a vanilla-izer or something?

If yes, do we really want to risk this?

Did you get any PMs last night?

[Stardust]

I am now officially on vacation and will be much less active. Here's something I was working on overnight though...


zemanjaski. Z, Z, Z, Z, Z, you are scum.

Here's why.

This post is townZ's last content-laden post (Dec 12). "The only confirmed town are Stardust and Pie. I as suspicious of imopen2; Hamfactorial; Freedom" This Z was confident, questioned people constantly and went after people for the right reasons. Scum hunting was the priority, and he always worked towards the truth, not what was easy. Following others (and getting others to follow him) was a very distant second to finding his own leads and running with what he believed first and foremost.

This post is scumZ's first real
post (Dec 14). This one felt pretty good to me! A few changes in that rcw is now top suspect (can't fault him for that, but it was the wagon du jour), but hamfactorial is now the only player who is still scum. freedom and imopen have moved to null, behind GR (who wasn't mentioned previously). In any case, a pretty townie post. Asks a lot of questions, analyzes what has happened between his death and revival... One important thing to note though is that he reaffirms that Pie must be town ("Pie isn't scum. Scum wouldn't try that hard that early, especially when it looked like there was no chance of me being lynched."). One other thing (and the lynchpin of my case against him) is that he's already started moving towards an information-based lynch as opposed to a lynch based on scumminess alone ("SD, who do you think would reveal more information now?"). Back to this in a minute.


Votes rcwraspy. Fine, but he miscounts the votes needed to lynch in the following posts. Probably not intentional, but it may have been and did ultimately result in his "lynch". Following the "lynch", Z's responses are largely null. Leaves his vote on, shows uncertainty, among which there were a couple posts I didn't like (like this post), but I won’t go into detail since it’s weaker than the rest of this case.

Then a lot of stuff happens. Pie flips out after he gets a small wagon going, and Z posts this. His language regarding me is pretty noncommittal (in particular the "would still be willing to form a voting bloc with Stardust" thing), but the more important part is regarding Pie (who he had marked as null). I'll quote here:
n

Inflatable Pie: My placing him as likely Town previously was based on our interactions; I still don't think scum would push a failing wagon that hard. So probably Town. I don't know if it is his frustrations boiling over, or SD just being a better player, or maybe just thread exhaustion, but IP seems to be breaking up? The want to replace out reads as frustrated Town. Sits here until the re-read.

What is the motivation for calling Pie null? Everything Z calls out here points to Pie as town, right down to the townie rage freak-out.

Z further reinforces Pie as town in this post where he's clearly considering asking him for advice.

[url=http://diestoremoval.com/viewtopic.
php?f=13&t=2064&p=163678#p163678]Then the big one[/url]. Read this post. Z has not yet completed his reread of the most recent events, yet he's pressing GR to join the Pie wagon, followed by Doc and freedom in the next post. His reasoning? "I don't mind a lynch on Pie as he has been SO ACTIVE there will be a lot of info to work through. He isn't high on my candidate list, but he represents more info that anyone above him, so that is probably a more valuable outcome for Town." This is exactly the same logic I defaulted to in my first scum game. It's hard to strait up flip your read on someone when (as scum) you know they're town. Basing your "decisions" on some actual fact (like post-death information) makes this much easier. ScumZ jumps into that train of thought almost immediately, without
rereading, and onto someone he has continued to read as town.

The Day ended quickly with Z pushing the Pie wagon, ultimately bullying freedom into throwing the hammer.

One other thing of note:

So rcw is confirmed town. This calls rezombad's confirmed town status into question (especially given the miller addition), but we can deal with that later. He's still off the lynch list for today.

Let me go into more detail here for a sec to help you guys interpret what this means in later
days. rcw is confirmed town, especially if he's fully lynch proof. If it's an x-shot thing, he's still very very very likely town. If he's acting super shady, you guys can make him confirm this later and put it to the test.

This is worth noting for everyone, we should, as the first point of business toMorrow, test out rcwraspy's claims. That puts him off the chopping block toDay, but we'll revisit him toMorrow.

This is a scummy take on my recommendation (and pressed in a couple other posts as well). In the same post Z tells rcw that he's been acting more townie. So why does Z want to immediately lynch him just because he's 1-shot unlynchable (if he is)? Z is trying to latch onto rcw's role alone as proof of alignment and is ignoring behavioural tells that he himself comments on. That's scummy.




Last bit is maybe less relevant now that rcw has claimed he's fully lynch proof. In fact, I'll get on board with that to confirm.

nVote rcwraspy.

[( G_R )]

Next vote is "hammer".

[zemanjaski]

I am now officially on vacation and will be much less active. Here's something I was working on overnight though...


zemanjaski. Z, Z, Z, Z, Z, you are scum.

This needed to come before toDay. The timing of this was curious, why sit on this accusation until now? The overall contention of this post is that I corralled everyone into lynching Pie; yet you had voiced concerns about him yourself. Why didn't you voice concerns about his lynch previously?

Here's why.

This post is townZ's last content-laden post (Dec 12). "The only confirmed town are Stardust and Pie. I as suspicious of imopen2; Hamfactorial; Freedom"
This Z was confident, questioned people constantly and went after people for the right reasons. Scum hunting was the priority, and he always worked towards the truth, not what was easy. Following others (and getting others to follow him) was a very distant second to finding his own leads and running with what he believed first and foremost.

Thanks! Mafia is hard, and I have a lot to learn. Like you said, I am over confidant and need to develop my technical skills, instead of just trying to wear people down with brow beating.

This post is scumZ's first real post (Dec 14). This one felt pretty good to me! A few changes in that rcw is now top suspect (can't fault him for that, but it was the wagon du jour), but hamfactorial is now the only player who is still scum. freedom and imopen have moved to null, behind GR (who wasn't mentioned previously). In any
case, a pretty townie post. Asks a lot of questions, analyzes what has happened between his death and revival... One important thing to note though is that he reaffirms that Pie must be town ("Pie isn't scum. Scum wouldn't try that hard that early, especially when it looked like there was no chance of me being lynched."). One other thing (and the lynchpin of my case against him) is that he's already started moving towards an information-based lynch as opposed to a lynch based on scumminess alone ("SD, who do you think would reveal more information now?"). Back to this in a minute.

I think this is your major concern - that I pushed for an "information lynch". I did. I have nothing to hide and I feel I made it VERY clear in my posts that that was what I was doing. Again, why not voice concerns about this yesterday? Half the posters here engaged with me on the issue and agreed to go along for their own reasons; they saw value in what I was suggesting.

I
am NOT an experienced mafia player. Maybe information lynches aren't good where you traditionally play, but I have been trying to inform myself on the theory of the game, and have been reading along with games over on MTGS; especially the cross-town games between MTGS players and Mafiascum players; and they like information lynches.

As I explained across several posts to others; I see a lot of value in the lynch. We had a player that had no interest in playing that had made a substantial contribution; we were reaching a point of frustration within the player group and we needed to advance the Day; Freedom and DocLawless, both of whom you have considered confirmed Town, went along with the vote, as did others. Everyone saw value in the move; now we need to make the most of the information that we have. I don't see you questioning anyone else's motives, just as you were not questioning mine yesterday - I was acting like this for days before the lynch, you said nothing. I am not sure what has gotten in
to you to make you chance your position so quickly.

Then a lot of stuff happens. Pie flips out after he gets a small wagon going, and Z posts this. His language regarding me is pretty noncommittal (in particular the "would still be willing to form a voting bloc with Stardust" thing), but the more important part is regarding Pie (who he had marked as null). I'll quote here:

Inflatable Pie: My placing him as likely Town previously was based on our interactions; I still don't think scum would push a failing wagon that hard. So probably Town. I don't know if it is his frustrations boiling over, or SD just being a better player, or maybe just thread exhaustion, but IP seems to be breaking up? The want to
replace out reads as frustrated Town. Sits here until the re-read.

What is the motivation for calling Pie null? Everything Z calls out here points to Pie as town, right down to the townie rage freak-out.

You can do better than this SD! I look up to you! If you're going to try for a weak mislynch, do better. You and Rezom had made cases for Pie being scum and others had questioned him as well; I am a much less experienced player than any of you, so while I felt Pie was Town, I am going to at least consider the position of more experienced players. You yourself voted for Pie, and you're someone whose position I have consistently taken account of in this game.

Then the big one. Read this post. Z has not yet completed his reread of the most recent events, yet he's pressing GR to join the
Pie wagon, followed by Doc and freedom in the next post. His reasoning? "I don't mind a lynch on Pie as he has been SO ACTIVE there will be a lot of info to work through. He isn't high on my candidate list, but he represents more info that anyone above him, so that is probably a more valuable outcome for Town." This is exactly the same logic I defaulted to in my first scum game. It's hard to strait up flip your read on someone when (as scum) you know they're town. Basing your "decisions" on some actual fact (like post-death information) makes this much easier. ScumZ jumps into that train of thought almost immediately, without rereading, and onto someone he has continued to read as town.

The Day ended quickly with Z pushing the Pie wagon, ultimately bullying freedom into throwing the hammer.[/
quote]

Couple of things to unpack here because you;re being lazy.

I have consistently adopted a bullying style across both games I have played; not so much because I actually expect people to do what I say (consider Rezom's responses to me), but because I want to test their commitment and probe for a response. I have done that many times in this thread; it's because I want people to have to put their position in writing. If an information lynch is a scum only move, then Lawless and Freedom are scum too right? They asked me about my logic, I explained why i thought the lynch was good for Town, they ultimately agreed.

I would love to heard what DocLawless and Freedom think here. Freedom, did you feel bullied into agreeing?

Funnily, Freedom has consistently rebuked my efforts to force him to act, I really doubt he felt "bullied".

One other thing of note:

So rcw is confirmed town. This calls rezombad's confirmed town status into question (especially given the miller addition), but we can deal with that later. He's still off the lynch list for today.

Let me go into more detail here for a sec to help you guys interpret what this means in later days. rcw is confirmed town, especially if he's fully lynch proof. If it's an x-shot thing, he's still very very very likely town. If he's acting super shady, you guys can make him confirm this later and put it to the test.

This is worth noting for everyone, we should, as the
first point of business toMorrow, test out rcwraspy's claims. That puts him off the chopping block toDay, but we'll revisit him toMorrow.

This is a scummy take on my recommendation (and pressed in a couple other posts as well). In the same post Z tells rcw that he's been acting more townie. So why does Z want to immediately lynch him just because he's 1-shot unlynchable (if he is)? Z is trying to latch onto rcw's role alone as proof of alignment and is ignoring behavioural tells that he himself comments on. That's scummy.

You're trying too hard again; I feel that everyone in the thread fully understands my reasoning; their is nothing scummy about my motivation at all. I explained already that raspy has claimed to be unlynchable; I just want to test the veracity of that claim so we can confirm a Townie. If the lynch ends up being successful, then we have caught scum because he wouldn't need to lie about the ability as Town. Its honestly a
bit strange that he is still alive; scum know they cannot lynch him, so as raspy himself said, you would think he would be the first NK. Thus it advantages Town substantially to test his claim now, then use him to help push wagons successfully later.

Raspy has clearly stated that he is straight unlynchable. Your argument here is a gross mischaracterization of my position.

Last bit is maybe less relevant now that rcw has claimed he's fully lynch proof. In fact, I'll get on board with that to confirm.

Vote rcwraspy.

So why even include the above? Just to throw a bit of extra dirt my way?

My biggest issue with your case Stardust, is that you;re trying to twist my actions and make it seem like my reasoning wasn't obvious, except that:
- I made it PERFECTLY clear that I wanted to information lynch Pie. Other posters asked me about it, then agreed to help; and
- I have explained why the lynch of rcwraspy
benefits Town; crwraspy HIMSELF is on board with proving the claim, and you deliberately set out to misconstrue my statements.

I have NO IDEA where this is coming from. You basically had my back yesterday and toDay you come out guns blazing with information that had been available for days and you said nothing. Not only that, it is information that everyone here was already well aware of.

I am Town. I have consistently acted for Town and will continue to do so.

[Wraith223]

Damn I feel bad that InflateablePie was not town. He reads were so scummy and his logic was circular/evasive. What the hell is up with Rez being an unknown? Did he run out of town? What a confusing game set.

Should I rethink my game plan? Or was InflateablePie really bad at not acting like scum? Rolling the credits on this BS....

I don't care for Rcw, but I am confused. If Zem is scum to stardust in a very long explanation; why still vote Rcwraspy? How did Stardust know that InflateablePie was really town in very affirmative terms? If Stardust is scum; he would know that InflateablePie was town. Why would he protect him then? If Rcwraspy is a cop; he might have a one time anti-lynch ability and worth going after.

The quiet ones are bothering me now. Ham and Iamopen2 have been really to quiet (Ham is better though at posting).

So far, we have Zem, freedom, and ham bandwagon voting without considering
inflateablePie's banning. Testing a rcwraspy vote seems like a smooth scum plan, but the character traits make no sense to me so far. Will have to ponder this more and watch Stardust carefully. Iamopen2 is way to silent. Holidays are not helping.
I am not voting till more shit is posted.

[zemanjaski]

The biggest piece of bullshit in your argument Stardust is this:

This is a scummy take on my recommendation (and pressed in a couple other posts as well). In the same post Z tells rcw that he's been acting more townie. So why does Z want to immediately lynch him just because he's 1-shot unlynchable (if he is)? Z is trying to latch onto rcw's role alone as proof of alignment and is ignoring behavioural tells that he himself comments on. That's scummy.

You mean those tells raspy was deliberately giving so that he would appear scummy and so that we would try and lynch him? Why would I ignore those? Oh, because it turns out they were all an act and AS I SAID ALREADY that's fine, I will just test his claims the next Day.

Seriously, WTF, you're a vet, build a better case, this one SUCKED.

[Wraith223]

Edit from last post" Inflateablepie was town" in first sentence.

[zemanjaski]

Hey that thing that everyone agreed on and liked the reasoning of, that makes Zem scum!

[zemanjaski]

So far, we have Zem, freedom, and ham bandwagon voting without considering inflateablePie's banning. Testing a rcwraspy vote seems like a smooth scum plan, but the character traits make no sense to me so far. Will have to ponder this more and watch Stardust carefully. Iamopen2 is way to silent. Holidays are not helping.
I am not voting till more shit is posted.

How does testing his claim NOT help Town?

[Stardust]

By the time you started really pushing for the info lynch, it was too late. The Day ended in less than 24 hours (or something). I wanted more from Pie after his townie rage post, but I wasn't concerned enough to stop his lynch for no reason. I didn't see your motive until the day after the Night started.

As for rcw, maybe you can explain how him being 1-shot confirms he's scum? Keep in mind I wrote that before he had confirmed he wasn't 1-shot (and said as much) so there was no misrep there despite your bold words. You wanted to test it no matter what, ignoring other evidence. That's what's scummy.

Last thing, you lynched Pie for info, yet haven't mentioned any info you got from that lynch. Did you even look into it? What have you got?