Dies To Removal Mafia - Game Over (Mafia Win)

[DocLawless]

Rez claimed a power role (Vigilante, specifically Day Vigilante) that lets him outright kill a player.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Vigilante

[rcwraspy]

When I read rcw. posts. He does not actually give any reads on others without a previous read (he just throws a summery together). Maybe counter stir is the wrong term...how about "playing us". He jokes in responses, uses circular reasoning, and is throwing votes around that make little sense. I may need to re-read his posts more.

You and Stardust have both mentioned me joking. I did make a joke, but re-read the paragraph with the joke. I also have a real response directly after the joke. If it was just a joke as a deflection and nothing else you'd be on to something, but that's not the case.

And as far as I can remember I've only voted once in this game. It was an RVS vote. How is that "throwing votes around"?

[DroppinSuga]

FYI, for this game "banned" = "killed"

[InflatablePie]

SON OF A BITCH REZZY.

Last game I don't explain shit and catch flak for it. This game I comply and explain every part of my thought process as thoroughly as I can and I get ignored. Frak you guys.

Last game = Ragnarok?

You were mafia. Are you saying you're intentionally trying to post differently from your scum game?

Yes and no, respectively. I did a lot of the no-explaining thing as any alignment in the past, now I'm trying something... better.

I like Stardust's case on rcw, but I personally am feeling "...
meh" about him. I can kind of see the points she's making, I just don't believe they're particularly strong.

I get aggresive but do not use extreme fonts or extreme language as he did.

EXTREME FONTS

...

Either the whole thing is an elaborate setup to catch bandwagons (which Rez screwed up with the vig), or Z was completely wrong about Pie being town.

hey guys we could always recreate the start of Ragnarok again and lynch ham

The major concerning thing to me is his line about how GR is scum no matter what zeman flips, but they're probably scum together.

I have two separate reads:
- GR is scum for
reasons
- Z is scum for reasons
I am more confident that GR is scum, but want to pursue Z first for... reasons.

Does that make any more sense?

vote: GR for now.

Read in case of death 3: return of the reads

---

2. DocLawless
3. freedom
12. Rezombad
7. Stardust

8. imopen2
10. LMD

9. wraith223
4. Hamfactorial
5. rcwraspy

11. G_R

[DocLawless]

I would like to have an answer to this, please. Forgive me if it's been answered already, I've clearly missed it if it has been.

oh shit just caught that flip. Damnit Rez.

Don't kill the vigilante, people, but REZ WHY DID YOU DO THAT

Aww shit. Just when I was about to declare both zem and Ipad as townies fighting each other the evil twin shows up and pulls the trigger.

In case it's not real... both of them have taken quite the risks if either was scum. No way all of this is busing. So I
conclude that they're both town.

If the kill is legit, whatever you people do, DO NOT LYNCH THE VIGILANTE. Not toDay at least.

Why is the vigilante above suspicion today? I'm not suggesting we dog pile on Rez, but there's logic here I want to understand.

[Stardust]

Day vigs (and vigilantes in general) are generally town abilities. Maybe 95%+. Don't forget about him entirely, but he's basically confirmed town by role alone.

[hamfactorial]

Pie:

Z's play this game was extra aggressive, but it still felt town to me. Why did you have a scum read on him?

Could you point me to a scummy post or posts from GR? I'm on my phone so searching through the thread is unfriendly.

[Wraith223]

When I read rcw. posts. He does not actually give any reads on others without a previous read (he just throws a summery together). Maybe counter stir is the wrong term...how about "playing us". He jokes in responses, uses circular reasoning, and is throwing votes around that make little sense. I may need to re-read his posts more.

You and Stardust have both mentioned me joking. I did make a joke, but re-read the paragraph with the joke. I also have a real response directly after the joke. If it was just a joke as a deflection and nothing else you'd be on to
something, but that's not the case.

And as far as I can remember I've only voted once in this game. It was an RVS vote. How is that "throwing votes around"?

I misread the posts. Gibbs slap me.

I need more info why he thinks GR is scum. As of current, I can't find any good tells on GR

Ham is sure playing it quiet an only on his terms for contact. Could be a cool way of laying low to avoid suspicion? I have not seen a vote so far from him.

Did inflatablepie change the font color from red back to white? Why is he still talking about zem? He got banned. No one is calling him on that? Being that zem was town.

[hamfactorial]

Wraith:

I got here on day 1 after RVS was over, it was too late to vote for lullz. I've fallen behind because of work, but it's easing up and I'm trying to keep pace.

[Stardust]

not voting freedom yet though, this is too easy.

First real post of the game. Leaves his RVS vote on GR and decides not to vote freedom despite questioning his "slip".

Recap post was good.

if z is town I guarantee there's scum on the wagon regardless. Starbuck could possibly be some scum mastermind, in which case we're all fucked anyway. imopen isn't reading as townie as Ragnarok, but I
can call him townish for now. it's probably Wraith in that case.

Why so sure there's scum on the wagon at all?
If I was scum, why would you all be fucked?


A few things about this post bugged me.
1) "You got me." Yep.
2) "sidenote: when I'm scum, I like to 'note' things for later. just sayin'."
- this is funny because you're making a note as you say it.
- this is scummy because you're throwing mud at imopen over what was a fairly legitimate concern.
3) "Stardust? Have you been reading her posts? If so, you'd see why. I can't see why anyone would think she was scum at this point."
- Buddying? No real reasoning offered at all.


"READ IN CASE OF DEATH" is a dangerous thing for scum to do since it
can tie their hands somewhat. A bit dangerous for town too (Pie actually warns about this himself) since it gives scum good indication of what direction things might move. Overall, likely a townie move.

@Stardust: read on me. go. regardless of read, tell me the person to most likely be scum if I was.

Why did you ask me this?

All your comments are missdirection away from Freedom. Please explain. - Well yeah, in my first big post I yelled at everyone to get off of freedom. I really think he's town, and if I didn't respond like that, he could very well have been lynched by now. I'd also like to point out that the same people I
yelled at to unvote him, did so very soon after I posted. That's weird, and it's making me nervous.

This never really amounted to much. Who were you talking about here and if it made you feel nervous, why didn't you follow up?

@Stardust/rcw "posts look like scumRCW's posts": yeah, it was me that said that. I've also only played one game with you. Regardless, I wanted to point that out.

Is that (dun dun dun) a note for later!? Oh dear! (That thing with imopen earlier was bullshit.)


Questioning Wraith, trying to lure him into your convoluted "vote for GR" trap. The way the questions are formatted make me think they're coming from a townie,
but this trap is stupid and extremely unlikely to give you any real results.


Blahblahblah, Pie's red text explosion. On reread, this feels like town. Even his change of read on Z comes from a town mindset. Only thing setting off alarm bells for me here is the red text itself. "Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:29 pm" - the start of the red text explosion, "Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:59 pm" - the end of the red text explosion. It's hard to stay mad for 30 mins strait. Probably Pie went and got a burrito in the middle there, you know? But he wanted us to be extra sure that he was still angry, which the red text conveniently portrays! I dunno. That might be off base. You have to be pretty intentional to explicitly change your font colour. How intentional are you when you're actually angry?


So that was a waste of time. Pie, answer my questions so something useful can come of this last hour. Also, tell me you're town. Repeatedly.

[rcwraspy]

Did inflatablepie change the font color from red back to white? Why is he still talking about zem? He got banned. No one is calling him on that? Being that zem was town.

I think he was just reiterating something he said before Z died, but stating it in other terms because it was being questioned. I think he was trying to add clarity to it, but I need to read back to the original posts of his to see if he was successful.

[Stardust]

Pie, you've been posting T/S lists on a fairly regular basis, but you haven't put much work into resolving your null pile. You must be at the very least more aware of those you have no read on. Is that not a concern?

[Jack]

Well then. It seems events have certainly occurred since I last looked at this thread.

As many of you have pointed out, the plans I've laid out in my last couple of posts are probably bad ideas. Zem even went on to suggest (and GR backed him up on this) that they make me look scummy. The biggest thing I've realized, though, is that I really need to start making good, helpful posts. I've been too focused on myself in my posts. My excuse for this before was that I didn't think that I would be able to tunnel players as well as zem, Pie or SD were doing, but...that's wrong. If I die, the town gains nothing, since I haven't done anything that would cause anything to be revealed about any player other than myself.

FWIW, here's my reads on some of the players. These are based mostly off of the first 5 pages and pages 9 through 11, since I haven't gotten around to re-reading what happened yesterday.

nSolidly town, based upon my own analysis:
Stardust (she's been doing some very good scumhunthing. More on this later.)
freedom (Suga told me this.)
zemanjaski (I had a town read on him for a long time. I guess that doesn't matter now, though . Pie was trying to accuse him, and as experienced as he seems to be, I just couldn't see his reasoning as strong enough, and in most cases I couldn't even understand why he would think that it was even a reason to believe that he was scum.)
Rezombad (based solely on the fact that he was able to daykill and the logic that others provided regarding who gets that power)

Those that I believe to be town, but only because they haven't done anything to make them seem like scum:
DocLawless
imopen2

Those to whom I haven't given much thought, and thus have the capability to swing either way in my eyes once I give them more thought:
(G_R)
Lord_McDonalds
Hamfactorial

nThose whose possible alignments leave me confused:
InflatablePie
Wraith223

On Stardust's investigation of rcwraspy (post 429, for those who wish to reference it):
Uhh...I swear I had more to say about this a few minutes ago when I started that list. Good job, I guess? You don't seem to have good reasons for a few of the points (mainly those that he labeled 1 and 2), but you're getting him to talk. His responses seem a bit weird, but his reaction to a few of the reasons was the same as mine. Especially the "honestly" part.
Thoughts on that:
-it seems strange that you'd bother pointing this out. The claim seems so weak.
-were you just saying this in hopes of him responding in a certain way; rather than using it as a piece of evidence against him, setting him up to say something that would be evidence against him?
-was this the reasoning behind
most of your questions? I feel like it might be.
Maybe it's just a difference in playstyle, but this feels a lot different from all that, for lack of a better word, shit between zem and pie. It feels much more productive. It's purposeful, rather than:
"fuck you
fuck you
fuck you
he's scum."

"fuck you
fuck you
fuck you
he's town."
______________________

Again, Wraith's posts just feel really weird to me. Maybe it's just the way he posts, but I think it's a bit more than that. I won't call it scum, but it's definitely strange. Actually, upon reread, I'm sensing this a bit less now. I don't agree with his read on Pie, but I'm seeing his logic. Posts 433 and 440 feel "good" to me.

[Jack]

ALL GLORY TO THE TEXTWALL

[DroppinSuga]

I was going to post a vote count, but it seems fairly pointless at this time.

[Wraith223]

Freedom, I really do talk and post that way. It would explain why I get quizzical looks so often. It is a curse of graduate degree of political science. I can't turn it off. Moving on to the game at hand. I hate bandwagon playing. That's why I went after inflateablepie. He fits my idea of scum in his posting methods, in this game. Asking someone to join a lynch crew is wrong in my mind as it is a political move, not an investigative move. I will never ask you to vote for someone cause the evidence I give should stand on it's grounds. Although evidence gathering in walls of text sucks; it's all we got to work with.

Nice to see freedom talking again. He has a decent take on the game. Where was that logic earlier? Seriously...where was it?

Ham responded with nothing to work with, but he appears busy with work. I will be busy all day Friday and might not check in at all.

Why did roz. kill Zem? Freedom would have
been an easy target for a vigilantly. Very strange

I am still voting InflatablePie.

[Mcdonalds]

Why is freedom an easy target wraith?

[InflatablePie]

Pie:

Z's play this game was extra aggressive, but it still felt town to me. Why did you have a scum read on him?

Could you point me to a scummy post or posts from GR? I'm on my phone so searching through the thread is unfriendly.

Off the top of my head, he was asking a lot of questions that didn't really go anywhere, had bad responses to the cop thing, and then tried to misrepresent me. There were a few other things that I honestly can't remember but I know I gave other reasons. Too lazy to check.

I can't remember single posts off the top of my head, but between ignoring the freedom thing and not really commenting on anything major when he comes in is a bit sketchy. I'll go ISO and case him if I have to but I put so much effort
into yelling at Z I'm feeling lazy...

Did inflatablepie change the font color from red back to white? Why is he still talking about zem? He got banned. No one is calling him on that? Being that zem was town.

rcw beat me to it, but I was kinda putting myself in my thought process at the time. I knew it would sound weird right before posting but I was too lazy to go back and change the tense. I mean, I didn't list Z in my T/S and cussed out rezzy so obviously I know he died. You're implying this is scummy; why?

@Stardust 'case'

---

A few things about this post bugged me.
1) "You got me." Yep.
2) "sidenote: when I'm scum, I like to 'note' things for later. just sayin'."
- this is funny because you're making a note as you say it.
- this is scummy because you're throwing mud at imopen over what was a fairly legitimate concern.
3) &
quot;Stardust? Have you been reading her posts? If so, you'd see why. I can't see why anyone would think she was scum at this point."
- Buddying? No real reasoning offered at all.

1) Hey, how else do you respond to that?
2) Hah. I'm not even going to try and pretend that was intentionally a joke. You're right. What I meant was, I say 'noted' a lot as scum about things to comment on them without taking a stance, then just don't bring them up again. It's like calling something 'interesting' when there's a lot of discussion on it. Get what I mean?
3) I like buddying my strong town reads. As all alignments.

Why so sure there's scum on the wagon at all?
If I was scum, why would you all be fucked?

- Odds and experience. Rarely does a wagon get up to 4 or so on D1 without one scum
joining in.
- Because if you're scum, you're damn good scum. FMPOV at least. (Wraith, don't spin this, Stardust is town.)

"READ IN CASE OF DEATH" is a dangerous thing for scum to do since it can tie their hands somewhat. A bit dangerous for town too (Pie actually warns about this himself) since it gives scum good indication of what direction things might move.

It can also be used by scum as well. Tying their hands isn't dangerous if they do it right, especially if they are planning ahead of time to bus. As town, you have to keep an eye on these things, as you would anyway.

Why did you ask me [for my read on you]?

IIRC, you hadn't been posting much (or it seemed like you hadn't) and you hadn't commented on me at all. I was curious, and wanted to find a question to ask you anyway, and it was the first thing I thought of.

This never really amounted to much. Who were you talking about here and if it made you feel nervous, why didn't you follow up?

I forgot about the wagon thing actually. Got preoccupied with Z. I'll take another look at it later.

Is that [scumrcw thing] (dun dun dun) a note for later!? Oh dear! (That thing with imopen earlier was bullshit.)

I meant that as "regardless of having only played one game with you, I wanted to point out your posts look like scumrcw's post". Limited experience meta read, not really a note. But I get how you mistook that.

How intentional are you when you're actually angry?

Depends. I was actually getting a little ticked off by Z's comments, so I started channeling Fate. Towards the end I may have exaggerated a bit. But I do get angry during some games, and I don'
t mind going off in the thread. So if you see me rage, I'm usually actually raging at first at least (depends on context though).

Pie, you've been posting T/S lists on a fairly regular basis, but you haven't put much work into resolving your null pile. You must be at the very least more aware of those you have no read on. Is that not a concern?

Not at the moment. I'll deal with my nullreads when I either run out of scum or they start getting wagoned and I need to read them. Usually if I keep a nullread for long, it's because I have tried but still have trouble actually reading them.

Freedom's read on Wraith is similar to mine, except I'm finding them more scummy-ish than weird. It keeps going back and forth though, I keep finding really townie things in his posts and then something just
sticks out as scummy. It may be a product of newbtown being wrong coming across as scummy and I can't discern the difference. I'm admittedly going to be flip-flopping on him for a bit.

Prime example:

He fits my idea of scum in his posting methods, in this game. Asking someone to join a lynch crew is wrong in my mind as it is a political move, not an investigative move. I will never ask you to vote for someone cause the evidence I give should stand on it's grounds.

I see where he's coming from, it's just... I disagree and thus it comes across as "wrong" in my head and gives off a scumvibe. Especially when he's talking about me, because... duh?

[DocLawless]

-snip-
I hate bandwagon playing. That's why I went after inflateablepie. He fits my idea of scum in his posting methods, in this game. Asking someone to join a lynch crew is wrong in my mind as it is a political move, not an investigative move.
-snip-

I am still voting InflatablePie.

I dunno, Wraith. After dwelling on it all day and pouring back over last night's posts I'm putting Pie in the "probably town" pile until he does something that makes me think otherwise. (Just my POV, not an attempt to get you to change your vote. You do that when you think you need to.) This might end up being the wrong decision in the end, but right now all I have to go on is what I can go back
and read... I see what happened last night and I think I get what he did. It was kind of a blur as it was going down, but I think it started here, on Tuesday, with his attempt to analyze the whole thread all at once. He narrows what he thinks he knows about who's scum down to Zem and G_R. When Zem notes he thinks GR might be scum, Pie jumped on a perceived chance to try and trap him by switching his vote to GR to see if Zem would bandwagon. The logic there being if Zem and GR had both been scum, Zem wouldn't bus GR. Which he didn't. Which further convinced Pie that Zem was scum. Honestly, I think Pie tilted him a little last night and inadvertently caused Zem to misplay by being a condescending ass instead of reinforcing himself as town. He even had Pie as town, he said so himself. There was zero reason to not team play that exchange. Would have been 1000 times more helpful than the hissy fit it turned into.
Zem's misplay caused Rez to misplay and shoot Zem in the head right here in front of God and everyone. Now Zem is banned and the Day Vig has blown his load. Unless he has multiple shots. Near as I can tell though that's highly unlikely.

The one thing that bugged me though was how, in his thread analysis, the only mention of G_R was "GR ignoring freedom in 93: worth a look if freedom does flip scum", and then he concludes the analysis by reading G_R as scum. The conclusion seems a bit jumped to. Or I don't put enough importance on who's ignoring who? I'm assuming Pie has other reasons to suspect G_R.

It's hard to stay mad for 30 mins strait.

I attest that it is not. Much less when someone continues to antagonize
you. But, then again, I have a lot of room to work on that myself IRL.

even wasn't going to play until someone nudged me about it.

Do you mean you weren't going to sign up until someone nudged you about it, or you weren't going to participate until a mod prodded you?

[Jack]

I like it when the game moves at this speed a lot better.

[( G_R )]

Pie is town as far as I'm concerned.

I just noticed two players who have each other on their town piles, I was starting to suspect one of them, and now I'm thinking that they might be scum buddies. Can anyone guess who they are?

[( G_R )]

EBWODP:

[imopen2]

Finally it's Friday...

I'll try to make a good post tonight. I'll probably be high for it but at least I'll try to contribute more than I have been

[Wraith223]

Why is freedom an easy target wraith?

His strew up post, stays quiet for a while, whines that he is not scum but town, uses other's summaries to explain his own post, and finally is now trying to budy up. That is a roller coaster ride of emotion and conversation tactics. Thus...easy target for being scum.

@doc, that was a good analysis on inflate., but no one else to me is really screaming scum besides freedom. I believe no one is still voting him anymore, but are watching him instead. Rcw evidence for scum is still weak in my view. He responds to questions fairly clearly, although they are just rehashes of quotes from others or a question in response to a question. I will back a vote if he gets for than 3 as he reacts scummy
sometimes as stardust found.

GR, don't use god damn acronyms. I have no idea what they mean. Screams as scummy tactic for us nuubs. If you are going to make a point on who is scum in your opinion; throw it on the table. Don't ask what it is. It looks evasive and just piggy backing of others thoughts/rational. If you think Pie is Town with "special" reasoning for you being scum; it makes me wonder if you to are working together.
Since zem is gone. The only people seeming working together are:
Stardust and Wraith (not above recognizing my patterns) I think he is testing me. My opinion of him could be scummy purely on the notion that he suggested the freedom bandwagon. Stardust is really hard to read and has given no other evidence of scum. I just don't have anything
Inflatablepie and Wraith (I really find IP is scum)
Stardust and imopen2 (not a strong link but they never contradict each other)
nInflateablepie and freedom (these 2 have very odd to contradicting posts in the greatest amount.
Everyone else is just simple responding with neutral response or are just quiet.

[hamfactorial]

Wraith:

What acronyms are you confused by? This is my 2nd game but I spent a while on the mafiascum wiki in my first game and can help out. Calling a player scummy because they use jargon seems unwise.

[DocLawless]

I'm assuming it was EBWODP.

"Edit by way of double post." Because directly editing a post is against the rules. Google'd.

[Stardust]

DocLawless, freedom and rezombad are town. If you don't see this, just trust me. They should never be lynched. Ever. When I flip town, take this advice to the grave.

InflatablePie and Wraith223 are probably town.

That leaves hamfactorial, rcwraspy, imopen2, LMD and G_R as our possible scum. These are our only possible lynch options today. Cases on anyone else will be ignored. If I'm right that all three scum are within those five (I'm more sure of this than I have been in a long time), lynching them (in any order) will seal our win since we'll be losing on the third mislynch (assuming I'm right about the current 8/3 split). So... let's do that?

What do you think of that list, Pie? Legit?

After reading through all five players, I think we should start with one of rcw, hamfactorial, or imopen2. Who's with me?



Also caught this:

This looks like a thorough case, and I thought Raspy's response to Z's kill was pretty disingenuous as well. Now he's here responding to you and being more involved. You've played with him before, does he perk up when addressed, or is this just coincidence that the two of you are here at the same time?

rcw has always been scum, so using meta to prove he's scum isn't going to work. Yes, he gets more involved when directly involved in a fight. I wouldn't be surprised to see him do that in his town game though.

Want to vote for him now?

[DocLawless]

One question first.

I just noticed two players who have each other on their town piles, I was starting to suspect one of them, and now I'm thinking that they might be scum buddies. Can anyone guess who they are?

I'm pretty sure he's talking about you and me. I have you as town, you have me as town, and I can't find any other pairing of two people that have said that about each other. I might be missing it. If I am I want G_R to correct me on it so I don't misrep him here, but if it's the two of us he's being cute about why did you ignore this?

[Stardust]

You're asking me, I assume?

I ignored it for a couple reasons. First, I'm ignoring GR. Second, it's a useless comment that wastes my time. If he wanted to tell us who he thought was scum, he should have done so. He's been filling the thread with useless comments on a fairly regular basis this game, and any focus on them detracts from actual hunting.

[rcwraspy]

even wasn't going to play until someone nudged me about it.

Do you mean you weren't going to sign up until someone nudged you about it, or you weren't going to participate until a mod prodded you?

Check out the sign-up thread. In it I posted that I'm going to sit out this game because I'm in my 1st semester of law school and exams are this week and next week. I took Contracts on Tuesday, Civil Procedure is tomorrow, and Criminal is Friday 12/20. Saturday the 21st is a make-up day in case the school clauses due to weather. Then someone (iirc it was either imopen
or LMD) nudged me and said we may not start for a few more days, RVS could last a while, etc., and it convinced me to sign up. Unfortunately for me the game took off like a bat out of hell, although it gives quite a bit of content to look back on when I have time to.

DocLawless, freedom and rezombad are town. If you don't see this, just trust me. They should never be lynched. Ever. When I flip town, take this advice to the grave.

InflatablePie and Wraith223 are probably town.

That leaves hamfactorial, rcwraspy, imopen2, LMD and G_R as our possible scum. These are our only possible lynch options today. Cases on anyone else will be ignored. If I'm right that all three scum are within those five (I'm more sure of this than I have been in a long time), lynching them (in any order) will seal our win since we'll be losing on the third mislynch (assuming I'm right about the current 8/3 split). So... let's do that?

What do you think of
that list, Pie? Legit?

After reading through all five players, I think we should start with one of rcw, hamfactorial, or imopen2. Who's with me?

Well, I'm not, obviously.

Why are you so convinced that Freedom is town? Sure, I have him reading town too, but he's the only one in the game who has basically said that he's scum. And he did it twice!

DocLawless I can see as town. Asking good questions, shows some good analysis. But that doesn't necessarily clear him.

Rezombad we leave alone for toDay because of role alone, although he still hasn't answered my questions (unless I missed it) regarding his thought process for sniping Z.

Wraith's weird posting style is cryptic and I don't have him cleared - not by a longshot. If I understand what he's been saying, I can see town motivations there, but it's too cryptic to really be sure.

Hamfactorial and LMD have not posted very much content. They're null through and through.

Imopen2 has had some decent content
but has also claimed to be very busy. Since I'm also very busy I can understand that and can't hold it against anybody. Haven't noticed any scum motivation from him unless he's lying about being busy. Which, again, in my position I can't fault anybody for.

Pie, GR, and Stardust have each had a good amount of content that I'm going to try to sludge through on Sunday (I'll throw Wraith in this category too). Stardust did a case on Pie but there's a lot more there than what was cased and the weak nature of the case has Pie and Stardust linked in my mind. Stardust, I know you can case better than that.

That's where I'm at right now. But like I just mentioned, I'm not going to be able to flesh out much of it until Sunday.

Just a word of warning - don't let Stardust lead you off a cliff. He's GOOD at this. Not saying he's scum - I need to dig into it Sunday - but just read his posts carefully.

[Stardust]

Stardust did a case on Pie but there's a lot more there than what was cased and the weak nature of the case has Pie and Stardust linked in my mind. Stardust, I know you can case better than that.

That wasn't a case. That was me looking into Pie. Ended up with the same read I'd had before I started, which turned to town following his reply to my bunch of questions.

Not much else to comment on other than that I'm looking forward to seeing what you dig up, rcw.

[Stardust]

Just remembered for whatever reason that I'd never replied to freedom.

On Stardust's investigation of rcwraspy (post 429, for those who wish to reference it):
Uhh...I swear I had more to say about this a few minutes ago when I started that list. Good job, I guess? You don't seem to have good reasons for a few of the points (mainly those that he labeled 1 and 2), but you're getting him to talk. His responses seem a bit weird, but his reaction to a few of the reasons was the same as mine. Especially the "honestly" part.
Thoughts on that:
-it seems strange that you'd bother pointing this out. The claim seems so weak.
-were you just
saying this in hopes of him responding in a certain way; rather than using it as a piece of evidence against him, setting him up to say something that would be evidence against him?
-was this the reasoning behind most of your questions? I feel like it might be.
Maybe it's just a difference in playstyle, but this feels a lot different from all that, for lack of a better word, shit between zem and pie. It feels much more productive. It's purposeful...

I'm always shooting for productive. I don't like the pushing to get your point across thing in mafia. It's not my style.

The "honestly" thing is a real tell, but it's weak at the best of times. This isn't the best of times. Even so, I like to include everything in a first case, even the weak stuff, both because I often go back over my own cases and because I've found having weak points in a case can actually tell you more about a person than if your entire case is strong. I mean, if you'
ve really got a case, make it as strong as possible, but I'm still feeling this game out. Lots of town reads is great, and I really am 90% sure I've got all three scum in my sights, but resolving a solid scum read has been difficult this game.

[DocLawless]

@Everyone except Stardust: Has the advice Stardust given me as a new player been bad advice in any objectionable way?

@Raspy, you said this is your third game with Stardust; that you were scumbuddies with him in one and he died quickly in the second. Is this how he acted when he was playing scum last time? If not, how did he play?

@Stardust: I really want to see what Raspy digs up on you before I decide to commit to a wagon or not. If you're town you'll understand why.

[Wraith223]

Rcw, I am cryptic really? Wow, I have always been told that I am the opposite. I try to write as I think and look at the situations at hand.

Allright...sigh...this game is so slow. Stardust, your rational for town lists are not good enough. "Trust me " is not a town statement or means of getting votes. Although, I do find rcw scummy and will vote him if you do. I can agree to that.

I have not read any mafia wiki stuff as I don't want it to taint my style of investigation. It's more fun to learn the game that way. If you guys choose to use an acronym; give me the full name followed by the acronym in parenthesis as you would in formal writing. I don't have enough time to read the walls, post my thoughts, and research the acronyms. Much appreciated for those that filled me in.

@Ham, I
challenge all things that appear hidden or confusing. I get you that it may be unwise, but someone could be taking advantage of us nuubs. So far, it's just been with only GR with the befuddlement of posts.

[imopen2]

Ok, so I think Pie and G_R are linked. I don't have time to put a whole case together right now (hopefully tomorrow at some point), but I was just reading the last few pages and the interaction between the two is weird. Pie votes for G_R and G_R says Pie is town. near the end is Stardust "looking into" pie and basically coming to a bunch of leaning scum conclusions (in my mind) and then concludes with a town read based on Pie's answers to some questions. Pie has the whole "vote G_R with me" trap in the middle, and Stardust's recap reminded me that G_R was Pie's RVS vote as well. I think there were a few more interactions between the two on pages 8 and 9 but like I said, no time. I thought it was interesting that a bunch of people have Pie on their scum-leaning/suspect/"Those whose possible alignments leave me confused" list and yet he is receiving little pressure. I had Pie as a null/
leaning town read so far in this game but I also think that your recap of him might have been lacking a bit, stardust. I haven't iso'd his posts yet but I feel like there were several other borderline-scummy things in the beginning of the game that should be re-analyzed.

[Stardust]

Allright...sigh...this game is so slow. Stardust, your rational for town lists are not good enough. "Trust me " is not a town statement or means of getting votes. Although, I do find rcw scummy and will vote him if you do. I can agree to that.

I'm not telling you to trust me to gain votes. I'm telling you to trust me so that three Days from now, after I'm dead and you're trying to figure out whether you should lynch either DocLawless or LMD, maybe you'll look back and trust what I consider an extremely strong read. The three that I named (with the possible exception of rezombad) should not be lynched, no matter what. Pie is the only player more experienced than I am in this game. After I'm dead, after I flip town, trust me. That's
what I'm saying.

[( G_R )]

My post was not useless as it is generating content from other people, just as intended.

It is also a real thing that I noticed, will quote posts when not on the phone.

[rcwraspy]

@Everyone except Stardust: Has the advice Stardust given me as a new player been bad advice in any objectionable way?

@Raspy, you said this is your third game with Stardust; that you were scumbuddies with him in one and he died quickly in the second. Is this how he acted when he was playing scum last time? If not, how did he play?

@Stardust: I really want to see what Raspy digs up on you before I decide to commit to a wagon or not. If you're town you'll understand why.

Nothing that stood out as objectionable in real-time. Maybe something will pop out when I re-read tomorrow.

From what I've been able to tell he's fairly similar whether he's playing town or scum. He knows the game well. But go do a read on Kaze's Newbie Mafia (KNM -
our scumbuddy game) to compare/contrast yourself. You're free to do this for any completed games. One quick note about KNM - Stardust did a lot of what other people termed "Professor Stardust" in that game.

Also just want to clarify something. I said I'm going to read GR, Pie, Stardust, and Wraith. If a case develops on one or more of them I'll pick the strongest case and write it up. Just didn't want people to think I'm definitely going to case Stardust because we'll see what comes from my read. Though I really do have a gut feeling of a link between Pie and Stardust so I'll be looking for that as I'm reading.

[InflatablePie]

That leaves hamfactorial, rcwraspy, imopen2, LMD and G_R as our possible scum. These are our only possible lynch options today. Cases on anyone else will be ignored. If I'm right that all three scum are within those five (I'm more sure of this than I have been in a long time), lynching them (in any order) will seal our win since we'll be losing on the third mislynch (assuming I'm right about the current 8/3 split). So... let's do that?

What do you think of that list, Pie? Legit?

After reading through all five players, I think we should start with one of rcw, hamfactorial, or imopen2. Who's with me?

Looks good to me. I'd put imopen and LMD on the backburner myself. So my vote's for rcw/ham/GR.

I'll go case
those three tomorrowish (or tonight after I get off work) to see the most likely scum and hopefully have enough time/productivity to do the other two before a lynch.

[DocLawless]

(I'm out until Monday evening, FYI. Company Christmas party tonight, probably hungover tomorrow. Don't know if I'll push the 72 hours rule, so here's a note to be safe.)