[Primer] PyroRed

[Helios]

Unless the builds get drastically different, it makes sense for it to remain here, the same way Walter White did when the mono red build existed.

[zemanjaski]

Well, the thread says PyroRed, not PyroWhite or PyroBlue or whatever, so whether you like it or not MDU we're going to post lists with YP$ in this thread. Sorry.

This is a bad post.

[LP, of the Fires]

The really question with Pyro Black is what does it do better then any of the other decks.

Remember the prime directive: "Never play a worse something else."

[Tyrael]

Pyro black gives you more access to removal and is faster/more aggressive so I guess that's one thing

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

The really question with Pyro Black is what does it do better then any of the other decks.

Remember the prime directive: "Never play a worse something else."

If cards like Abrupt Decay gain in popularity it could get to a point where Dreadbore just just better than Chained. As long as Chained remains the better removal spell, I'll probably stick with White. Unless we get some Black goodies in BotG.
Edit: I think that Stormbreath is a better top-end right now than Exava and I think Zealot is a better two drop in Pyro than Jester. Burger King is the only thing that tempts me right now, but we don't have the r/b scry land yet. So I'm deciding based on the removal they offer right now.

[Valdarith]

Well, the thread says PyroRed, not PyroWhite or PyroBlue or whatever, so whether you like it or not MDU we're going to post lists with YP$ in this thread. Sorry.

This is a bad post.

Elaborate.

Your reply wasn't much better, by the way.

[RaidaTheBlade]

At this point I really do think we're getting off track e.e

If somebody wants to run a pyrorakis list at fnm or oline or something, go for it! I think we'd all b interested in the results.

[Valdarith]

I wrote an entire article comparing white and black. What is better positioned is left to the user and one's local meta.

I'm testing PyroBlack on MODO as we speak.

[zemanjaski]

Well, the thread says PyroRed, not PyroWhite or PyroBlue or whatever, so whether you like it or not MDU we're going to post lists with YP$ in this thread. Sorry.

This is a bad post.

Elaborate.

Your reply wasn't much better, by the way.

There is no need to be confrontational.

[magicdownunder]

Well, the thread says PyroRed, not PyroWhite or PyroBlue or whatever, so whether you like it or not MDU we're going to post lists with YP$ in this thread. Sorry.

Sorry I missed the YP$, I think it was from tunnel vision after reading posts on Spikejester, 1000 Terror effects and 20 land base decks running King, birds and YP$ - my bad .

I do believe Pedro's approach with Pack Rats seems better then King and YP$ since you can at least make use of all the extra terrors.

[Valdarith]

I apologize if it came off that way. I've just seen a lot of posts lately saying what amounts to "If it isn't PyroWhite (read: like Zem's list) don't post it in here" and I don't think that's a good way to think.

[Tyrael]

Nah

if Izzet get their scrylands and suddenly everyone starts running Pyroblue for example, would that really require a seperate primer? Hmm...

[Elricity]

It really doesn't matter what the other color is honestly.

All we're really debating in here is this:


A) what type of removal is best
B) what shocks on legs are best
C) what amount of consistancy do we want and how

Blue adding some form of card draw is just another form of arguing C. We're really not even discussing various sideboard tech options the colors give at this point. Hell, Yarpus was suggesting green for gruul charm a while back and even that wouldn't have changed the deck any.

Even going all 5 colors, we're weighing...20 cards, max?

[Valdarith]

Testing:

[deck]
Creatures (20)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Ash Zealot
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Spells (17)
3 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Dreadbore
2 Ultimate Price
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (23)
4 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Blood Crypt
3 Mutavault
2 Swamp
10 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Doom Blade
1 Ultimate Price
1 Dreadbore
4 Skullcrack
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Auger Spree
3 Toil / Trouble
1 Slaughter Games
[/deck]

[Elricity]

I do love me some toil // trouble. Don't be surprised when you cast the toil side on occassion. It's been very helpful some games.

[zemanjaski]

UR is almost never good as an aggro deck. Its awful in legacy with the best creatures, burn and counters...the power level of a format has to be insanely low before a counter-burn deck is viable. The colours just don't play well together at all. RUG is basically UG (very good colour combo; has always been good) splash Lightning Bolt.

RG is a red deck with better creatures.
RB is a red deck with terrors.
RW isn't as well developed as the other two; mostly because the colour combination isn't often supported by the appropriate lands.

^ I like Val's list a lot. Wouldn't change a card in the 60; the sideboarding wasn't immediately obvious, but I think I see it now:

vs. aggro; -4 Cackler, +4 Terrors
vs. control; -2 UP, -3 Shock, -4 Magma Jet; +4 Skullcrack, +1 Hammer, +3 Toil // Trouble, +1 Slaughter Games

Not sure what Augur Spree is for. There must be a specific card that he has in mind, because it isn't
very good if it doesn't have a narrow need that necessitates it.

[zemanjaski]

Valdarith also has the correct discard option for the current meta.

[Valdarith]

Auger Spree is for Lotleth Troll.

[Valdarith]

I'm testing without the Mutavaults because I have none at the moment, nor do I have 75 tickets to buy three. They've really skyrocketed on MODO. I will be testing with Mutavaults at FNM tomorrow. I've played the deck a few games and come to the conclusion that I love it. A lot.

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

snip
[/deck]

That list looks very sweet. I may have to test it out. Right after I poo-pooed Black too.

[zemanjaski]

That's extraordinarily narrow lol.

[Valdarith]

Yeah, him and Varolz basically. Extremely narrow but I'll definitely be playing it tomorrow at fnm since black and green are pretty popular. I also can't think of anything I'd rather have in that spot. Ideas for MODO?

[zemanjaski]

Act of Treason.

[Valdarith]

I was thinking that or Peak Eruption.

[zemanjaski]

That's good too. RW Devotion is pretty popular.

[Helios]

Peak eruption wins games and feels so good when it does.

I wrote an entire article comparing white and black. What is better positioned is left to the user and one's local meta.

Article needs more data. Like it's good, but I haven't seen any "Ok I sat down and played games against each of these archetypes, here's how they went."

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

[deck]
Creatures (20)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Ash Zealot
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Spells (17)
3 Shock
3Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Dreadbore
2 Ultimate Price
1 Flames of the Firebrand
Waifu
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (23)
4 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Blood Crypt
3 Mutavault
2 Swamp
10 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Doom Blade
1 Ultimate Price
1 Dreadbore
3 Skullcrack
1 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Toil / Trouble
4 Firedrinker Satyr
[/deck]
I'll be testing that over the 3-day weekend I have. I'll let y'all know how I do. I wanted the 8x 1-drop plan for B/x and Control. I also added a 1-of FotF over the 4th Jet. Other than that, I think Val has hit on something here.

[InflatablePie]

Well, the thread says PyroRed, not PyroWhite or PyroBlue or whatever, so whether you like it or not MDU we're going to post lists with YP$ in this thread. Sorry.

Man, if blue gets enough neat goodies to make it worth running in the next sets, I really want to try PyroBlue once we get that Temple. I don't care if it's worse than RW with Chained, I just love the interaction between Turn and YP$. *drool*

[Valdarith]

This deck....hooooo boy...

Will report tomorrow. One note: Tymaret won me two games today. Excellent one-of.

[NerdBoyWonder]

This deck....hooooo boy...

Will report tomorrow. One note: Tymaret won me two games today. Excellent one-of.

My question is whether you want him in a majority of games. I've always been leery of one-ofs but after running Big Boros I've been more accepting of that option.

[MattT]

I think Pedros stumbled over something in the RB Aggro thread that is worth looking at for PyroBlack: Pack Rat instead of YP$. I find Tymaret a bit lackluster beside YP$, but in this case there'd be an incentive to "toss him to the rats". Alongside Mutavault to grow rats even further is there even a need to have anything higher on the curve than Chandra herself?

[Pedros]

Valdarith also has the correct discard option for the current meta.

Please elaborate on this

[Elricity]

Of the major decks where you would want discard, they all have one key card that if it wasn't in their deck, they probably just lost.

[Valdarith]

Alright, here are my thoughts after about 10 matches last night:

1) Tymaret as a one-of feels perfect. I never tested having two, but did test three, and that felt very clunky. He saved my ass a couple of times. One match I was able to sac my Phoenix in response to Anger of the Gods, then buy back the Phoenix with a Shock EOT to swing lethal next turn. The other time was when I had YP$ and a token on board needing to topdeck a burn spell to close the game out that turn, and I topdecked Tymaret with six mana on board. Ballgame.

2) Sideboard feels good, but might benefit from tuning. I want Hammer of Purphoros in the aggro matchup for card advantage but I also have four terror effects in the side. The second Doom Blade is actually in there for midrange matchups so it doesn't bother me to go -4 Cackler, +1 Doom Blade, +1 Dreadbore, +1 Ultimate Price, +1 Hammer, but maybe I'm just being too conservative with my
deckbuilding.

3) Speaking of midrange, I'm wondering if my sideboard strategy is correct. I know against nonblack strats I want +2 Doom Blade, +1 Ultimate Price, +1 Dreadbore, but what do I want to take out? The Cacklers? I tried that and it seemed fine since Cacklers tend to line up poorly against their larger creatures, not to mention it allows me to play a grindy matchup. I feel like I should be the control deck against them and with eight terrors postboard I think I can play that role pretty effectively. As a matter of fact I can't recall a single game I lost against midrange postboard with this strategy.

4) I never got to play Mono Black Devotion but I'm not sure about my sideboard strategy their either. Shock is obviously bad so I want -3 Shock, but I definitely want +1 Ultimate Price, +1 Dreadbore, +4 Skullcrack. I just don't know what to take out. Is it -3 Shock, -3 Magma Jet? I think that's the right call with Magma Jet only serving to rebuy my Phoenix and scry (with an outside shot of
Exava killing Desecration Demon outright).

5) Two Chandra is the right number. Never really felt the need for three. Between Tymaret, YP$, and Phoenix the deck already has plenty of value. It was hilarious how many times my red opponents two- or even three-for-oned themselves to get rid of her.

6) Slaughter Games - this one is for you, Pedros. I think what Zem is eluding to (and what I happen to believe) is that discard options like Duress and Thoughtseize are rather lackluster in this deck vs control. They're terrible topdecks and are only proactive when in your opening hand. When I cast Slaughter Games I know exactly what I'm afraid of in the matchup, so regardless of whether or not the card is in their hand, I'm still stripping away the card in their deck I find the most frightening based on the board state. For instance, if I know that I can win the game in three turns as long as he doesn't cast Blood Baron, I'm going to name Blood Baron because I really don't care if he draws four and gains
four off Sphinx's Revelation (depending on board state of course). If I have Slaughter Games in my opening hand and I get to turn four without an aggressive board state, you can bet your ass I'm naming Revelation and leaning on burning out Blood Baron if he hits the board. To put it more eloquently, control has only a couple of powerful wincons available to them and Slaughter Games strips whatever wincon I find most threatening to my chance of winning regardless of whether or not it's in their hand.

7) Exava was exactly what the deck was missing last time I tested PyroBlack. She's a haymaker. I knew she was good in my Dos Rakis deck, but I feel like she's even better here with all the spells I play. There isn't much that can really beat her.

[InflatablePie]

disclaimer: all thoughts are based off PyroRed/White/Dargons experience:

2) I don't like Hammer against aggro personally. Am I crazy here? It seems okay, I just always have better stuff to sub in or would rather just take out their creatures. I only sub it in against control. If you're expecting lots of Br Aggro (Nuwen's list / the one from GP Santiago) though, that could work (extra blocker for Madcapped stuff, intimidate blocker, Doom Blade is bad here).

3) This is probably the best cut. YP$ gives you stuff to block non-tramplers with, Zealot and first strike is useful, you're not subbing out Phoenix/Exava/most of your removal. I'd also consider cutting a Shock or two (or 1-shock/1-Jet against GR for Elvish Mystic) for Augur Spree/Mortars. You still have Jets and Shocks to take care of mana dorks, but the 4 damage can deal with more threatening things (notably Polukranos).

4) MDU mentioned in his PyroDragon vs
MonoB vid that Jet is only good against them in that it helps dig for your SB cards. I'd feel weird running only one Jet though. Maybe you take out Tyramet here due to all of their removal making it harder to stick a YP$/more than one or two dudes?

Keeping an eye on PyroBlack myself for when BotG releases. I have my one Tyramet but I think I might wanna stock up on them now in case the deck gets popular enough.

In other news, for when I finally do get the chance to play Magic (goddamn reddit board game meetups and me wanting to play face-to-face Mafia...) I've settled on a hybrid of Z's SB and one of MDU's SBs (I actually watched most of those PyroDragon videos): 3 Reckoner, 3 Skullcrack, 3 Mortars, 2 Boros Charm, 2 Last Breath, 1 Chained, 1 Hammer.

Doing lots of solo testing and seeing how the deck feels post-sideboarding, subbing in 3 Mortars always feels... clunky. Not sure if I like that. The deck feels like
it has a better chance against mono-U though (-8 one drops, +3 Mortars/2 Charm/2 LB/1 Chained). inb4 none of the blue players show up to my next constructed event. <_<

[Valdarith]

Have you ever actually played Hammer against aggro? If I'm going to turn 6+ against an aggro deck (which is always) and I resolve a Hammer it's game over 95% of the time.

[InflatablePie]

Admittedly I haven't tried it (or if I did I never drew it). My SB plan is usually take out all my one-drops, add Mortars/Reckoners/Chained/one-of (Charm/LB/etc.). I guess I could try out a Hammer in my next aggro match and see if I would have rather had a Last Breath or something.

[Valdarith]

Two things about Hammer:

1) It makes every card in your deck live. That's invaluable vs aggro.
2) 3/3 tokens beat 2/1 and 2/2 creatures.

[Valdarith]

FNM in three hours.

I think I'm going to make a last-minute change and take out a Mutavault for a Mountain. I want to reduce my chances of Mutavault + Swamp hands as much as possible, plus it gives me a 17th untapped source for turn one Cackler and a 19th red source for Ash Zealot on turn two.

Too conservative?

[zemanjaski]

Nah seems fine. For FNM I like the idea of playing the most consistent deck possible, whereas for a large event it's better to try and get lucky. GL!

I'll read through the thread and provide notes when possible.