[Primer] PyroRed

[NerdBoyWonder]

@LP, no notes beyond that as I have yet to really play with the deck. Did have brief experience with Burger King at the start of the season and that card is a damn house. Originally had a Rakdos deck that had YP$, Burger King, and Cerberus in the list. Didn't work out too well. Then again the list was all over the place.

@Val, looks like I may be lucky because my meta is precisely Mono Black/Variants and Esper. Looks like I'm keeping in my one drops.

Here is my list
[deck]Creatures 19
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Instants & Sorceries 16
4 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Ultimate Price
2 Dreadbore

Planeswalkers 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Land 23
11 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault
2 Swamp

Sideboard Unfinished
3 Skullcrack
2 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Slaughter Games
2 Exava,
Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Dreadbore
1 Hammer of Purphoros[/deck]

I still have 3 more slots in my side and unsure what I should play. looking at Toil//Trouble as an option. Suggestions?

[Helios]

Ash and Spike together is an interesting concept.

[LP, of the Fires]

Spike Jester just seems so unplayable to me.

[InflatablePie]

Don't think I'm going to WNM after all. Need to get my bike fixed so I don't have to rely on my GF's schedule and/or inconvenience myself. Bah.

Also, commented on the article with a bit of praise and a few questions mostly for the players reading CFB that haven't seen this thread (Fanatic in SB, Boros Charm in SB, and thoughts on 4 Shock with 2 Flames).

[Valdarith]

Spike Jester just seems so unplayable to me.

It's a very swingy card. It ranges from OMGAMAZEBALLS (Sylvan Caryatid, Nightveil Specter, immune to Doom Blade and Ultimate Price) to absolutely terrible (Judge's Familiar, Frostburn Weird, Soldier of the Pantheon, Elvish Mystic). In my paper meta it's a house (midrange and control heavy).

[windstrider]

In Dos Rakis last season, Spike Jester was an absolute monster of a card. Going from Cackler into Jester felt really good.

Are we trying too many things at once? Pyromancer wants spells, but Tymaret wants creatures to sac. Theoretically, they should work together, but it might be that we're asking the deck to attempt too much.

[Valdarith]

In Dos Rakis last season, Spike Jester was an absolute monster of a card. Going from Cackler into Jester felt really good.

Are we trying too many things at once? Pyromancer wants spells, but Tymaret wants creatures to sac. Theoretically, they should work together, but it might be that we're asking the deck to attempt too much.

I thought so, which was why I cut Tymaret down to a one-of.

It may be perfectly acceptable to have Cackler as the only one drop. His immunity to Doom Blade and Ultimate Price is big, and if we're running Exava he has haste when she's on the field. My RB Dos Rakis deck has him as the only one drop and it feels fantastic, but that deck is built for speed and not the longevity that Young Pyromancer tends to push.

[NerdBoyWonder]

What would help fuel Tymaret + YP$ synergy would be a 2 costing token producer. Tymaret as a 1 or 2 of in a Pyro shell seems just fine.

[Helios]

that deck is built for speed and not the longevity that Young Pyromancer tends to push.

Maybe with Pyromancer and Tymaret, we can have both Looking forward to testing. One more day of college for 2 months. Sooooo much magic will happen.

[Valdarith]

Relatively speaking it's not possible. Bu running more spells for Young Pyromancer your deck will necessarily be slower. But in a vacuum the deck could still be fast. The question then is whether it's fast enough to beat the top decks in the format.

This is where I think black really shines compared to white. Dreadbore means we don't suffer from an opposing Jace or Elspeth nearly as much as the white variant. Jace especially is a huge beating against Young Pyromancer strategies but Dreadbore makes it a one turn fog essentially. Then we get to fuse Toil / Trouble without obscuring our manabase, and get to board in the best removal suite in the format for the creature matchups. It's awesome.

[zemanjaski]

If you don't feel you want 1 drops, play 4 Cackler main and 4 Satyr in your board. DONE.

[zemanjaski]

Spikejester ranges from "uncastable" to "uncastable".

[Helios]

Jace is still only a 1 turn fog against Walter White. Killing him with Dreadbore is great and all, but he's really not that big of a deal.

[Valdarith]

Spike Jester is pretty easy to cast with 12 black sources.

[zemanjaski]

The lists posted didn't have 12 sources.

[Valdarith]

Mine had 11. That's about right for a turn two Jester.

[ibejaemes]

hey zem, planning on streaming MODO any time soon? is it even up?

[magicdownunder]

hey zem, planning on streaming MODO any time soon? is it even up?

The DE are now on fixed times, since he is from Melbourne if you factor in time in work (assuming he is on office hours) and RL at most he'll only be able to play 1 DE per weekday (if he is lucky) the time would be 8-pm for him (that happens to be 7pm for me which is also my best time) - for you guys that would be some ungodly hour.

[ibejaemes]

Oh damn, I just checked and it would be 4 AM EST.

[windstrider]

The lists posted didn't have 12 sources.

Mine has 10, which is too few to cast Jester reliably by turn two. I just don't like his fragility as compared to Zealot.

[Pedros]

Mine had 11. That's about right for a turn two Jester.

Funny when some said casting Spike Jester and pack rat on turn 2 with 13 sources in my Dos Rakis List is impossible. I don't understand. How 11 black sources cast turn 2 guy, but not 13...

About 1 drops - I played Cacklers MB and Satyrs SB for a long time (with MB Reckoners), then everyone said you should stay agressive g1 and you SHOULD play 6+ one drops MD.

With Black why would you run skullcrack? Erebos is (should) be better in this slot, as it also draws you cards - sth cool vs mono black or UW control.

@Valdarith

I would play deck like that if we have temples, as it would enable you to play full 8 taplands on turn 1 (would allow 3rd mutavault also), so our 2 drops are
always powered up on turn 2 with enough fixing.

[windstrider]

12 Black sources should be sufficient to run Spike Jester. Last season, we had 4 Blood Crypts, 4 Dragonskull Summits, and 4 Godless Shrines in the manabase, and it ran smoothly.

Skullcrack answers lifegain, damages the opponent, and recurs Phoenix. It's better than Erebos for what the deck should be doing: killing the opponent.

[LP, of the Fires]

Purp is a smart man I'll likely just default to his posts from now on when I feel to lazy to add anything to discussion.

Why is spike jester so good but SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad.

[RaidaTheBlade]

If I had to run r/b right now, I'd go with something like:
[deck]
Creatures 19
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 15
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Dreadbore
4 Ultimate Price

Thighs 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands 24
4 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Blood Crypt
2 Mutavault
3 Swamp
11 Mountain
[/deck]

What I like about this list is how it lets you have a lot of threats at the top, but still be quick and aggressive. It also just has delicious amounts of removal

That said, I do still think that r/w is the better choice for now. But come rotation, it will probably take something pretty dang good to keep me from making the switch.

[Tyrael]

If Pyroblack takes off I'll be jumping on that train with you guys

[MattT]

Are we trying too many things at once? Pyromancer wants spells, but Tymaret wants creatures to sac. Theoretically, they should work together, but it might be that we're asking the deck to attempt too much.

I thought so, which was why I cut Tymaret down to a one-of.

I agree. Some time later I´m starting to doubt both YP$ and Tymarets effectivness. It often comes out to cluttery and washed out. More powah wanted

[whimsicalbox]

If I had to run r/b right now, I'd go with something like:
[deck]
Creatures 19
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 15
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Dreadbore
4 Ultimate Price

Thighs 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands 24
4 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Blood Crypt
2 Mutavault
3 Swamp
11 Mountain
[/deck]

What I like about this list is how it lets you have a lot of threats at the top, but still be quick and aggressive. It also just has delicious amounts of removal

That said, I do still think that r/w is the better choice for now. But come rotation, it will
probably take something pretty dang good to keep me from making the switch.

7 spot removal spells that don't double as burn seems a lot for a deck that's looking to be aggressive.

[zemanjaski]

I'd go as far to say that it's awful. Three is already pushing the limit with a red deck in Game 1.

[Valdarith]

Yeah I'd never run more than four maindeck. Even four is pushing it but I like my second Ultimate Price as a hedge against Master of Waves and Mono Black.

[magicdownunder]

Depends on your meta game, lots of midrange and aggro? 7 removal seems fine for that.

At least with RB if you happen to face control you can point of of those removal at walkers.

That said, we have a RB thread now so please post RB idea in that one (I think we have 3 pages worth of debate on non-pyrolist now).

[RaidaTheBlade]

Well the r/b thread is generic r/b aggro. Mine was still a pyro list.

Anyway, the 7 kill spells instead of burn works imo because of the added top-end creatures.

This one doesn't burn them out as much as the r/w does, but enables exava and dragon to come in without any dangers on the field, and then smack them in the face. And they're still instants/sorceries, so it gets yp tokens as well...

-shrugs-

[Valdarith]

Well, the thread says PyroRed, not PyroWhite or PyroBlue or whatever, so whether you like it or not MDU we're going to post lists with YP$ in this thread. Sorry.

[Helios]

Calm your britches gentlemen. No need to get so confrontational.

As soon as I get the posts back, we'll add a section to the primer for the black variant. Would someone who has done a lot of testing with Tymaret give me a short write-up explaining why he's good and the key interactions? I understand him well enough, but I haven't done any actual playing yet so that should come from a better source.

[Valdarith]

If there weren't so many PyroBlack posts in here I would suggest changing the title of this thread to PyroWhite and moving PyroBlack posts to a new thread (if the latter is even possible). I recognize the two styles are a little different but the PyroBlack build is so much different than the Dos Rakis philosophy so it doesn't belong there.

I'm going to play around with Tymaret a bit more tonight, but this time as a one-of. I need to decide what I'm taking to FNM tomorrow and if I'm happy enough with the build I'll take PyroBlack. Otherwise I'll take my tried-and-true Dos Rakis build.

[finn62]

In the R/B decks that have been brought up lately there is even more recursion (Tymaret, Pyromancer, and Phoenix). Would Foundry Street Denizen be worth considering as a one drop? It could provide a decent hit late game.

[Helios]

Denizen doesn't provide any value, and this is a deck about value creatures. Even if you activate Tymaret from the GY, get an Elemental, and cast a Phoenix, you're still only swinging with a 4/1 ground creature. Denizen is better suited to all-in strategies.

[Valdarith]

The bad thing about only going to FNM once a month or so is that there's so many decks I want to try out but can only play one.

Dos Rakis?
PyroBlack?
Boros Burn?

First world problems...

[Helios]

I vote pyrorakis, so that we have more data.

[Valdarith]

Ha I actually posted that in the wrong thread.

My only concern is that my meta is so control and midrange heavy and PyroRakis doesn't have the kind of game against those two decks that Dos Rakis does. I may continue playing PyroRakis online and even stream sometime today.

[NerdBoyWonder]

I wouldn't mind a separate thread for PyroRakis/PyroKing/PyroBlack builds. It seems the deck while similar to the other Pyrobuilds may want to push into another direction. Also could open discussion up on whether Burger King fits in a PyroShell or build a shell around him.