[Primer] PyroRed

[Helios]

Looks good Val

haha . . . well, FWIW, I caught that you were doing some Socratic Jedi Questioning.

Who me?

[Purp]

@TheCleaner - I don't possibly see how you could be losing to RDW with 18 removal spells. You shouldn't be casting YP$ on T2

[Valdarith]

Reposting this list since it's a new page and the formatting got buggered up due to the php bug on this site.


[deck]
Creatures (19)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (18)
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Dreadbore
2 Doom Blade
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (23)
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault
2 Swamp
11 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Dark Betrayal
2 Doom Blade
2 Dreadbore
4 Skullcrack
3 Toil / Trouble
1 Hammer of Purphoros
[/deck]

I may try this deck out on stream sometime in the next couple of days.

[Helios]

Looking forward to seeing results. Solid list is solid.

[zemanjaski]

I am not sure on two Doom Blade. Firstly because I think four terrors is too many to maindeck, unless you're not expecting any control. I know Dreadbore hits walkers, but the object of the game isn't to kill walkers, it is to kill your opponent.

The other consideration is whether it is OK to maindeck Doom Blade with MBC being so popular. Ultimate Price may be more maindeckable. Still kills Master of Waves, Desecreation Demon, Polukranos etc. Won't kill Spectre, but neither will Doom Blade. That really leaves Reckoner (relevant) and Loxodon Smiter (not relevant) as issues.

Will you see more mono black decks than decks running reckoner? I would hazard a guess yes.

You can still sideboard doom blade of course.

[Helios]

Considering the similarities between this and Walter White, 2 Dreadbore / 1 Ultimate Price seems to be in accord with your suggestion. Dreadbore's also not dead in the control matchup, which is a big plus.

[Tyrael]

Reposting this list since it's a new page and the formatting got buggered up due to the php bug on this site.

You mean 'burgered' , right? Har har har

[zemanjaski]

Dreadbore is an actual fucking joke. Love that card. If not for Master, I would just say run 4 Dreadbore.

[Valdarith]

I've been wondering this myself, Z, and I feel you are correct. Ultimate Price is the better card for that slot.

[LP, of the Fires]

Your sideboard has too much bad removal. You're basically running a million of the same card.

[Jack]

Yea, a lot of the common multicolored creatures are also black. I agree that Ultimate Price is the right choice.

[LP, of the Fires]

[quote="Valdarith » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:50 pm"]

[deck]
Creatures (19)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (18)
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Dreadbore
1 Ultimate Price
1 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (23)
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault
2 Swamp
11 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Doom Blade
1 Flames of the Firebrand(or shrivel)
3 Skullcrack
3 Toil / Trouble
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Strombreath Dragon
[/deck]

quote]

That board looks much better to me. 6 burns + dragon/mortars for UW/Esper. Cheap Diversified removal of varying manacosts.

[zemanjaski]

Can a couple of you guys respond to "Nick Newman" in my latest article? I don't want to tear him up, so if you could be nice about it, that would be great. I don't want to have to respond to every post and I am already in a bad mood. Thanks.

[LP, of the Fires]

Done.

[LP, of the Fires]

I suppose I was probably too mean but I'm in an unforgiving mood. Must be the new avatar

[Helios]

Jesus LP. That was rough.

"It's quite possible you just need to learn how to play Magic."

[magicdownunder]

Can a couple of you guys respond to "Nick Newman" in my latest article? I don't want to tear him up, so if you could be nice about it, that would be great. I don't want to have to respond to every post and I am already in a bad mood. Thanks.

Done, I tried to use logic - I hope it helps.

[zemanjaski]

Thanks guys. I can be really condescending myself, even when I mean well and sometimes I need to step back.

[LP, of the Fires]

I feel like Dr. Dre.

People think I've gone soft, but I can still deliver a solid tongue lashing.

Also Added you on facebook MDU. If you don't want to be friends, well fuck you.

[vundo]

I think this Nick Newman was the guy that posted in this thread a few weeks back about this deck not being able to beat B/x LOL

[magicdownunder]

Also Added you on facebook MDU. If you don't want to be friends, well fuck you.

I'll add ya, but If I don't reply in weeks or months (or years) its because I don't use Facebook - its just something my school mates forced on me .

[InflatablePie]

I think I'm going to try Z's current/CFB article 75 if I get to go to WNM tomorrow night (skipping FNM again for a reddit board game night). Losing badly on Friday with Boros Burn felt bad, and I'd like to give PyroWhite another shot.

Would a Mountain or BW scryland be better over the fourth Muta? I already spent $40 on dragons last week and don't want to pay out the nose for my fourth 'vault.

Also most likely going to drop the Peak Eruptions for Charms, only because I know there's a chunk of control players at that store, but I know barely anyone brings red decks there. I could also bring in a ton of mono-U hate and add another Mortars and a Last Breath. Not sure.

[Jack]

Pie: 3 Mutavaults is fine. Really, the correct number is based highly off of personal preference. If you find yourself trying to get the most use out of every Mutavault that you draw instead of just using your mana on the cards in your hand first, instead of only turning to Mutavaullt when it creates a profitable block or attack, then you want 4. If you find yourself in the second scenario more often, than 3 is fine. I think I might drop down to 3 for this reason (and because I hate being color screwed).

[Valdarith]

I dont see a comment from Nick Newman, but I know a Nick Newman that is a local friend of mine. That's not a common name so I'm willing to bet it's the same guy. Take it easy on him...he's a good guy.

[zemanjaski]

He's from NZ.

[InflatablePie]

@freedom: Yeah, I don't like running all those Reckoners with 19 red sources... So, basic Mountain, or can this deck work with a 5th scryland? I haven't had a lot of trouble with the 8 in Boros Burn, so I might just try that. Charms might also be the answer to sub in for Eruptions if I'm dropping the 'vaults since Muta's pretty good against Control. And I love me some Boros Charm. It also helps if Cuneo UW Control gets more popular after its showing at GP Dallas, since having a charm allows for a little more overextension. Also not a bad choice to drop a 'vault for that reason as well, since attacking with Mutavaults isn't as great with Azo-Charms+Last Breaths running around (which I think there were 13 copies in Dallas' top 8 IIRC? most of them maindeck?).

[magicdownunder]

[quote="InflatablePie » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:39 am"]I think I'm going to try Z's current/CFB article 75 if I get to go to WNM tomorrow night (skipping FNM again for a reddit board game night). Losing badly on Friday with Boros Burn felt bad, and I'd like to give PyroWhite another shot.

Would a Mountain or BW scryland be better over the fourth Muta? I already spent $40 on dragons last week and don't want to pay out the nose for my fourth 'vault.

Also most likely going to drop the Peak Eruptions for Charms, only because I know there's a chunk of control players at that store, but I know barely anyone brings red decks there. I could also bring in a ton of mono-U hate and add another Mortars and a Last Breath. Not sure.[/
quote]

Just some warning the list which Z posted is a meta breaker deck designed to prey on Ux and Bx of old (pre-shrivel era) you know your meta best so you should make some tweaks and adjustments (don't treat FNM or WNM as a GP, PT or DE and focus your hate on top decks when you know Rx, BRx control or GWx is big local).

[InflatablePie]

WNM Meta: few homebrews, mostly players are playing the deck-of-the-week. skewed towards control and some midrange this season. haven't been there in a while though.
FNM Meta: tons of homebrews and a few t1/1.5 decks (1-2 MonoB, 1-2 MonoU, 1 WW, 2 or so Junk, 3-4 Maze's End, 3-4 Esper, 1 UW, tons of random red aggro, rest homebrews or fringe one-ofs (Dega/BR control, Naya midrange etc.)).

so against a mostly unknown field that is probably playing Mono-U, Mono-B, Cuneo UW and the new BW control, I think I'll take my chances with Z's list and readjust to whatever the new meta at my WNM shop is.

I'd also go there for FNMs but the payout is worse and there's tougher competition. I know going against better players makes me a better player, but it's more fun to win ten packs a week than get crushed every week. For me, anyway. >_>

[NerdBoyWonder]

With the PyroRakis deck why move the 2x Dragons from Z's Pyro list tothe side? Is it mainly to just focus more on the Burger King recurrsion plan?

[LP, of the Fires]

FWIW, played PyroRakis today and did terribly, but I did learn something. 1, the one-drops mostly sucked and 2, that tymaret is absurdly powerful. I look forward to post rotation playing with this guy.

[windstrider]

FWIW, played PyroRakis today and did terribly, but I did learn something. 1, the one-drops mostly sucked and 2, that tymaret is absurdly powerful. I look forward to post rotation playing with this guy.

I'm very interested in your insights and experiences with the deck, LP. How did the manabase work out in your testing?

[Valdarith]

FWIW, played PyroRakis today and did terribly, but I did learn something. 1, the one-drops mostly sucked and 2, that tymaret is absurdly powerful. I look forward to post rotation playing with this guy.

I had mixed experiences with PyroRakis last night.

1) Agreed that the one drops sucked. They were good against control. That's it. In almost every other matchup I was siding them out. Of note, I never played mono black devotion.
2) Tymaret is pretty damn good, but 3 is too many. He's terrible in multiples and that happened to me a couple of times. Considering going down to 1-2.
3) Dreadbore = lol. Of course I already knew this because I've been playing RB for awhile now, but damn, it's SO nice in the Pyro version because you're
running more burn so you can use your burn as removal and Dreadbore as a last resort to planeswalkers. There was one game where my opponent landed Chandra and two Domri Rade and I STILL won that game because of a clutch Dreadbore I was sandbagging.
4) Like PyroWhite, we are highly favored in the pseudo-mirror, but even moreso in black because of our comparatively superior removal suite. Boros Reckoner doesn't do a damn thing against us. Sideboarded Frostburn Weird is underwhelming against us. We eat Chandra with Dreadbore or a combination of burn and hasty creatures. Stormbreath Dragon eats Doom Blade and Ultimate Price. I went on the draw in every postboard game vs red and won every game.
5) Esper feels like 50/50, even postboard. I feel like I'm incredibly unlucky because Chandra almost always gets eaten by Dsphere or Hero's Downfall despite how much pressure I put on in the early game. It's infuriating.
6) I switched to Spike Jester halfway through testing as a hedge to Esper and it felt pretty
good. Doesn't give a damn about Sylvan Caryatid and powers through Nightveil Specter. Unfortunately it's stonewalled by Elvish Mystic, Voyaging Satyr, Frostburn Weird, and Judge's Familiar, so I've found it's best to just sandbag it in this deck as a backup burn spell or for when Chandra comes online.
7) Speaking of Chandra, I want three, just like in my other RB deck.
I feel like I want Exava in some number. She's so powerful and would help in every matchup. There's not a lot that can block her and win.

[LaZerBurn]

I dont see a comment from Nick Newman, but I know a Nick Newman that is a local friend of mine. That's not a common name so I'm willing to bet it's the same guy. Take it easy on him...he's a good guy.

I can't see it either, maybe it was removed?

[Valdarith]

It was removed, and apparently it's another Nick Newman. Small world.

[Helios]

Thanks for all the info Val! Can you elaborate more on the 1-drops being awful?

[windstrider]

FWIW, played PyroRakis today and did terribly, but I did learn something. 1, the one-drops mostly sucked and 2, that tymaret is absurdly powerful. I look forward to post rotation playing with this guy.

I had mixed experiences with PyroRakis last night.

1) Agreed that the one drops sucked. They were good against control. That's it. In almost every other matchup I was siding them out. Of note, I never played mono black devotion.
2) Tymaret is pretty damn good, but 3 is too many. He's terrible in multiples and that happened to me a couple of times. Considering going down to 1-2.
n3) Dreadbore = lol. Of course I already knew this because I've been playing RB for awhile now, but damn, it's SO nice in the Pyro version because you're running more burn so you can use your burn as removal and Dreadbore as a last resort to planeswalkers. There was one game where my opponent landed Chandra and two Domri Rade and I STILL won that game because of a clutch Dreadbore I was sandbagging.
4) Like PyroWhite, we are highly favored in the pseudo-mirror, but even moreso in black because of our comparatively superior removal suite. Boros Reckoner doesn't do a damn thing against us. Sideboarded Frostburn Weird is underwhelming against us. We eat Chandra with Dreadbore or a combination of burn and hasty creatures. Stormbreath Dragon eats Doom Blade and Ultimate Price. I went on the draw in every postboard game vs red and won every game.
5) Esper feels like 50/50, even postboard. I feel like I'm incredibly unlucky because Chandra almost always gets eaten by Dsphere or Hero's Downfall despite how
much pressure I put on in the early game. It's infuriating.
6) I switched to Spike Jester halfway through testing as a hedge to Esper and it felt pretty good. Doesn't give a damn about Sylvan Caryatid and powers through Nightveil Specter. Unfortunately it's stonewalled by Elvish Mystic, Voyaging Satyr, Frostburn Weird, and Judge's Familiar, so I've found it's best to just sandbag it in this deck as a backup burn spell or for when Chandra comes online.
7) Speaking of Chandra, I want three, just like in my other RB deck.
I feel like I want Exava in some number. She's so powerful and would help in every matchup. There's not a lot that can block her and win.

Cool. Thanks for the insights.

I still think Zealot is the better choice over Jester for maintaining board presence. The Jester is a Lightning Bolt on legs, which is great for killing x/3s, but he doesn't stick around against a lot. That
first strike gives Zealot a lot of staying power when combined with a Shock or Strike.

My list on the previous page had 2 Tymarets, 3 Chandras, and 2 Exavas in the main. I really want to try that configuration since it seems to address some of the problems you're describing. Exava does a lot of things that Stormbreath provides in the other builds.

Other cards to consider in this build are Chainwalker for its power and Legion Loyalist for the first strike it brings.

[NerdBoyWonder]

Will post my PyroRakis list soon. After a brief break from Magic started to hop back in and decided to put big Boros away and delve into A Pyrobuild. Did limited testing with Z's latest build and loved the card interaction. Tested mainly against U/w Devotion. Game was always in control until he dsphered chained to Rocks to get master of waves back. After that I realized I really just wanted hard answers for it as well as hard answers for my Mono Black/variant infested meta.

Some notes:
- Exava i think is better positioned compared to Strombreath. Dodged Doom blade AND ultimate Price. Should be in the 75.
- Ult Price is better MB at the momemt as Z has said.

[LP, of the Fires]

Other notes? Talking with a friend of mine whose much better at magic then me, he suggested playing 4 tymaret and 4 thoughtseize, both things I agree with. Tymaret is bad in multiples, but the deck is so much more powerful when you have one. I was highly favored to win a game in which I drew something like 10 lands because I had tymaret, YP, and Hammer going. Thoughtseize on the other hand is just a powerful spell. Being able to disrupt the opponent is key I think. Since the 1 drops where terrible for whatever reason, I see the deck becoming slower, and thoughtseize is great in slower decks.

Other things I was thinking of include playing some number of toil trouble main. Early, I believe read the bones was being discussed as a potentially solid card, and toil trouble is a less powerful read the bones that's also a randomly broken burn spell. After that, it's a bunch of fringe ideas. Human subtheme for xathrid necromancer/
tymerat synergies. Underworld cerberous similarly makes tymaret broken. Shit like that. Pyreweild shaman as an excellent mana-sink.

The one thing that's for sure; DroppinSuga. Or Firedrinker satyr. Whichever.

[Valdarith]

The problem with the one drops in this deck are that they are unwanted in almost every matchup. The only time I really want them is vs Mono Black Devotion and UW/Esper. Because I'm running fewer creatures I can never really take the role of aggressor in the R/x and midrange matchups, so they feel dead 80% of the time. At least cards like Ash Zealot and Exava have haste. I'm actually considering taking out the one drops altogether.

[deck]
Creatures (20)
4 Ash Zealot
4 Spike Jester
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Spells (17)
3 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Dreadbore
2 Ultimate Price
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (23)
4 Rakdos Guilgate
4 Blood Crypt
2 Mutavault
3 Swamp
10 Mountain
[/deck]

[TheCleaner]

Okay guys, beat my red Buddie in all 4 Games we just played. Never got below 10 Life.
Thanks for your help and tips.