Dies To Removal Mafia - Game Over (Mafia Win)

[zemanjaski]

You're next Stardust, so sit pretty (I know you can).

What is it with scum players and hitting on me? ( @ Pie)

Something about your dreamy eyes I guess?

This post is awful. I want to hit on you further, but I am not scum. Instead I will offer a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVAUlaq1iDc

[zemanjaski]

@ Hamfactorial

Checking in for the first time, man these FoS-populated games move fast. I'm heading into work, so I'll be browsing from my phone during breaks.

Is there any precedence for having multiple cop roles in the same game?

Why don't you deny my accusation?

This reads like you're asking your scum buddies whether or not you could be caught already (and look, Stardust
responded!).

If you're town, don't do what you did last time and sit around asking theory questions, that got you mislynched. Roll your sleeves up and start throwing some punches. I'll even give you a hand, do some analysis of RCWraspy when you get a chance. He finds my play scummy but doesn't want to vote for me, what do you make of that? How does that serve town?

Have fun at work redbro, I know I am

I checked into the thread on page 2 for the first time and found that you'd already gotten into a mess involving a cop role with Stardust. You were similarly aggressive in Ragnarok Mafia, so the vote on me didn't seem out of place. You voted me on day 1 there, too, but you didn't include a bonus power role gambit.

As we discussed in the closing page there, it was TubeHunter's ridiculous neighbor kill on you that got me lynched by association. Asking about theory didn'
t get me mislynched then, but I see your point about digging harder.

I'll read raspy's posts again after this reply.

Thanks!

Understand that what I am saying is not that theory questions got you killed, but that you really ONLY offered theory questions. Head down, start swinging when you can.

[Jack]

On zemanjaski:


I have many, many mixed thoughts. Obviously, he's opening his mouth the most out of all of us. Some of this seems like it could be legitimate discussion and that he's just trying to get a read on everyone, but a lot of it seems like he's just talking to keep the thread active and speed the game up.
Continued thoughts. Keep in mind that this is coming from a first-time player, and the following paragraph is completely unorganized, so some sentences might not seem to follow the last one. Actually, it's probably best just to use bullet points.
-Z seems really good at this. He's definitely putting a lot of thought into every post. I'm being John Madden right now and telling you things that you can already plainly see.
-Z is usually a man of few words. Like, I've been expecting him to make a post where the only words are "scum post is scum." The only time I've ever seen him pick
apart posts like he's doing right now is back in the MTGS RDW primer when he'd get into some very in-depth arguments as to why certain cards were bad. Possible reasons as to why he's doing this:
1. The game just calls for this type of post (most likely)
2. He's bored at work, and wants to get the game really interesting very quickly (likely that this is true, but it isn't enough of an incentive for him to be so talkative)
3. He wants to completely run this game. He didn't get to play the entirety of his first game, so he wants to make up for it with this one.
-It seems like he's trying to learn everything about everyone. The "bored at work" reason explains how he's able to do this, but I think I might have a possible "why": he has a power role. It's probably a pretty important one (although he's claimed that he isn't a cop, and so have other people, and this is fucking confusing, since I don't want to completely trust him, yet he obviously
knows the most of anyone about what he is), and he wants to be able to play it right. This would make even more sense if he was scum, since, by initiating the scumhunt, he's getting everyone else to talk and potentially learning what they are. He's also made it very apparent that he was the one who started the scumhunt, so that could be his cover, but I believe that he is a much better bluffer than to directly state his (fake) intentions.
-He could also be vanilla, and just be trying to make the most of it and make the game really interesting. He's been criticizing people for not doing things for the town, which, when taken directly, makes it seem like he's town. However, nothing seems to be direct in this game. He's definitely pulling some kind of bluff, even if the bluff is that he's bluffing. Z, you're probably loving every word of this, and you have me so confounded. I guess just voicing my thoughts is good for my growth as a player, but I should probably stop now before I say something
that gets me killed.

[Stardust]

Nice post, freedom. I like you. Want to wrap it all up? What's your current read on zem?

[zemanjaski]

/confirm

Question that I expect everyone to answer: Should I run an opening post gambit this game?

Also, Vote: GR because OMGUS.

I wonder where I got the idea So it would OK for you to do it I assume?

Unvote, Vote Wraith223.

Unvote, Vote zemanjaski.

For real this time.

@ Stardust;

confirm or deny you're actually making a counter claim.

Why do you want to know?

Do you think you could "generate a scenario" where me trueclaiming cop is perhaps bad for the town?

Your motives are extremely suspect. There is no scenario where you can truly verify a cop (unless you'd care to claim neutral) since the mafia obviously know whether they'd get a town or scum result. The reasoning that you'd like to ignore me for today is also scum motivated - wagoning a player who later claims a PR can often look bad and is a waste of time for scum since that player won't get mislynched. Clearing people as town is helpful to the town, but outing PR's to do so (especially early in the game) is much more helpful to the scum (partly because they have a target for
their nightkill and partly because they know who they can't mislynch, like I said).

Add to that the awful vote on Wraith (immediately following my vote) and yeah, you're scum.

This seems important, so let's break it down.

- you're right in that we cannot truly verify that you're a cop (though let's be honest, the mafia would kill you ASAP and then we would know). That isn't entirely your use though; you're going to have to provide us with search results and explain why you're not dead and that's a wealth of information for town.
- I don't need to lynch you today because of the above reasons, I want the info you making it to day two and beyond will provide.
- I am not the one who outted a power role; you did by counter-claiming, or at least seeming to do. I gave the mafia no information at all, you might have done so. Please explain this.
- I agree that outing power roles helps scum.
- Please see my summary of wraith223's posts and then re-evaluate your assessment of
my vote on him. Please let me know what you think!

@ Stardust

Because if you're claiming cop then I have no real interest in interacting with you today. We may be able to generate a scenario that verifies your claim.

That said, I doubt you'd out such a power role to counter claim an obvious gambit.

Still, answer, now. You've dodged several times already. If you're making it up, why counter claim a gambit at all? Explain please.

On reread, I want to make note of the mindset in this post too. You're thinking of me only as a target, not as a potential teammate.


imopen, please elaborate on your meta read.

"On reread, I want to make note of the mindset in this post too. You're thinking of me only as a
target, not as a potential teammate." Please expand on this, I would like to discuss this more fully. It is unclear to me whether you're suggesting I am scum or town. You are a target honestly, in the same way that everyone is until I start to feel that they're town. I might not want to lynch you toDay but you're highly suspicious going in to day 2.

Holy fuck, I have no clue what's going on. I thought the start would be simple so I could learn!

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll catch on soon enough. You can start by telling me whether or not you think everything I'm saying about zemanjaski makes sense. What do you agree with and why? What do you think I'm reading too much into and why?

Good post.

Unvote, Vote Wraith223.

I know you are mysterious, but jumping ship fast...odd.

Wraith, what do you make of the fact that I've been jumping around so much?

Also, why did you vote for zem?

Conveniently you're the one providing the most content with which to hunt right now. Sure, you got a few knee-jerk reactions, but they're all fairly legit reactions to an RVS gambit like that. With
the possible exception of the potential Stardust counter-claim - it will be interesting to see what he says.

What does the bolded mean?

I guess you're pretty pissed that I didn't respond to zeman's question too, huh?

Good post.

Verdict: I actually feel that you're pretty town, at least the most town of the posters so far. Not verifying your role is good for town (so please, don't). I think the questions have been good so far and it does feel like you're actually trying to ascertain my alignment (it's town by the way, you silly goose). What gives me pause is your faulty reasoning of my gambit play, so I would like to see some more discourse on that and the answers to my posed questions. Arrigato

[Jack]

Stardust: I'm still pretty unsure. There's enough of a chance that he could be scum and also a chance that he could be a PR scum, but I don't want him to die right off the bat, since he's trying to bring out a lot of info on a lot of people, which helps the town (which people tell me that I should appear as so that the real town doesn't kill me). I'm not voting for him given what I think I know now.

[zemanjaski]

First up, great fucking post Freedom.

On zemanjaski:
I have many, many mixed thoughts. Obviously, he's opening his mouth the most out of all of us. Some of this seems like it could be legitimate discussion and that he's just trying to get a read on everyone, but a lot of it seems like he's just talking to keep the thread active and speed the game up.

I am trying to speed the game up (I have said as much in the thread). I feel that the random feeling out stage (referred to by many in this thread as "RVS") benefits scum. In this phase, people randomly vote for each other, until someone starts making accusations. The thing is that the longer we wait before starting actual discourse, the more scum benefit by being able to blend in
(acting in the same way as actual town). By jolting the game to a start and forcing reactions, especially in such a direct way, I believe it is harder for scum to blend in; it is hard enough to respond to the gambit when you're legitimate town; as scum you now need to try and imagine how legitimate town would respond, I would like to think it isn't easy!

Continued thoughts. Keep in mind that this is coming from a first-time player, and the following paragraph is completely unorganized, so some sentences might not seem to follow the last one. Actually, it's probably best just to use bullet points.
-Z seems really good at this. He's definitely putting a lot of thought into every post. I'm being John Madden right now and telling you things that you can already plainly see.
-Z is usually a man of few words. Like, I've been expecting him to make a post where the only words are "scum post is scum." The only time I've ever seen him pick apart posts like he's doing
right now is back in the MTGS RDW primer when he'd get into some very in-depth arguments as to why certain cards were bad. Possible reasons as to why he's doing this:
1. The game just calls for this type of post (most likely)
2. He's bored at work, and wants to get the game really interesting very quickly (likely that this is true, but it isn't enough of an incentive for him to be so talkative)
3. He wants to completely run this game. He didn't get to play the entirety of his first game, so he wants to make up for it with this one.

I think you have the makings of a great analyst tbh. Point three is mostly correct, I was really enjoying my first game and was then killed off just as I was starting to feel more comfortable. I am not similarly constrained this game, I have a much better feel for how games play out (after following along for that game and reading through a bunch more). I also just like the idea of being aggressive - maybe it will backfire and I will be a day 1
mislynch; but even then there will be so much info for the townies to use.

I do think you're very wrong about saying that I don't make substantive posts though. Maybe not in the clan thread where I just mess around, but I would submit that every article I have ever written is pretty thoughtful and reflective.

-It seems like he's trying to learn everything about everyone. The "bored at work" reason explains how he's able to do this, but I think I might have a possible "why": he has a power role. It's probably a pretty important one (although he's claimed that he isn't a cop, and so have other people, and this is fucking confusing, since I don't want to completely trust him, yet he obviously knows the most of anyone about what he is), and he wants to be able to play it right. This would make even more sense if he was scum, since, by initiating the scumhunt, he's getting everyone else to talk and
potentially learning what they are. He's also made it very apparent that he was the one who started the scumhunt, so that could be his cover, but I believe that he is a much better bluffer than to directly state his (fake) intentions.
-He could also be vanilla, and just be trying to make the most of it and make the game really interesting. He's been criticizing people for not doing things for the town, which, when taken directly, makes it seem like he's town. However, nothing seems to be direct in this game. He's definitely pulling some kind of bluff, even if the bluff is that he's bluffing. Z, you're probably loving every word of this, and you have me so confounded. I guess just voicing my thoughts is good for my growth as a player, but I should probably stop now before I say something that gets me killed.

I find it interesting that you think I have a power role. My gut tells me that you think so because you may have one. We don't really know how high powered the game is (
how many power roles there are on either side).

Why would attracting attention to myself mean "I am playing the role right"? Playing like this is going to get me killed quickly; either through mislynch or through mafia night kill. It doesn't benefit town for me to die early when I have an important role. Please elaborate as I am sure you have more to say.

Why are you afraid of dying? It doesn't matter if you die as town, just that we kill all the scum. What's the town win condition again?

[zemanjaski]

Stardust: I'm still pretty unsure. There's enough of a chance that he could be scum and also a chance that he could be a PR scum, but I don't want him to die right off the bat, since he's trying to bring out a lot of info on a lot of people, which helps the town (which people tell me that I should appear as so that the real town doesn't kill me). I'm not voting for him given what I think I know now.

What the actual fuck Freedom. You're worried about real town killing you?

Unvote
Vote Freedom

[Stardust]

This post is awful.

Several times this game you've written something like this. Usually it's backed up with a short explanation of why. The change is interesting though since I searched your Ragnarok posts for similar and found nothing even close. I agree with imopen. You're different. PBPA's instead of questions. Easy reads instead of uncertainty. You've even spoiled what your read is on me (in this post) before doing the analysis. Everyone is either scum or null.

PEdit: Hmm, and now you think I'm town. I'll respond fully to that post tomorrow. In the meantime, answer this:
1) What is faulty about my reasoning of your gambit play? Do you
think I'm taking it seriously?
2) Other than that it's not targeting you, why is that one quoted post a "good post"?
3) Why do you say that I'll be highly suspicious going into Day 2, but you think I'm town now?

[Jack]

zem: Just a bad joke.

[Stardust]

So... I guess we're lynching freedom now? I've never been in a game that had such a blatant slip, but I can't rationalize any possible town thought process for posting that.

Unvote, Vote freedom.

zem: Just a bad joke.

Explain.

[zemanjaski]

This post is awful.

Several times this game you've written something like this. Usually it's backed up with a short explanation of why. The change is interesting though since I searched your Ragnarok posts for similar and found nothing even close. I agree with imopen. You're different. PBPA's instead of questions. Easy reads instead of uncertainty. You've even spoiled what your read is on me (in this post) before doing the analysis. Everyone is either scum or null.

I am
growing more confidant and comfortable. I was scared as fuck of being a mislynch on day 1 of Ragnarok. I initially didn't want to get killed because I wanted to play through the game there (ironic), but as I was reading articles and games (while playing in Ragnarok) it dawned on me that my death was irrelevant, all that mattered was finding scum.

My style is absolutely different, but I think you would have to agree it is just growth from my position (upon death) in Ragnarok. I definitely became more and more assertive in that game and I am going to continue that progression here.

PEdit: Hmm, and now you think I'm town. I'll respond fully to that post tomorrow. In the meantime, answer this:
1) What is faulty about my reasoning of your gambit play? Do you think I'm taking it seriously?
2) Other than that it's not targeting you, why is that one quoted post a "good post"?
3) Why do you say that I'll be highly suspicious going into Day 2, but you think I'm town now?

1. I don't think you're taking my claim seriously (which is good, its obv fake). I feel I have explained why your reasoning is faulty, please read my post. We can discuss this tomorrow after you've posted something more substantive if you like. Happy to discuss it then when you're fully caught up, and I have the benefit of not having a one-sided conversation. It's an important discussion point.

2. Its a good post because your asking players to explain their reasoning and tease more information out of them. Both players have made statements without analysis, your questions should force them to commit thoughts that we can then work through. I feel that's pro-town,

3. This is obvious if you have read my analysis correctly. I think you're leaning town (I didn't say you're conf town) because of good questions and high levels of interaction. However, you'll be suspicious on day 2 if you're maintaining the cop counter-claim. If you're not maintaining the counter-claim and are
instead just trying to guage whether I am scum, then I revert back to my lean town position.

Just one more thing for today (since you can't post substantively), what do you make of Freedom's scumslip?

[pedit]I see you already jumped on it. I leave my post unchanged for completeness.

[( G_R )]

This game has a lot of members I've never met before.

@zem: do you really think a three-vote wagon is long enough to assure that a scum is already involved in it?

I didn't lie last time I said I have trouble telling rez and zem apart.

Welcome to the party.

Not just the wagon itself, but all of the interactions going on around it. I would hazard a guess that there would be at least 1 scum though. You don't
seem to think so, why not?

I would wait for a larger wagon, personally.

By a lot, I mean two or three. That's a lot.

Wait. Is that a slip I'm reading now?

Vote zemanjaski

Do tell me more good sir.

Bah, I misread the "tactics" question you asked. The "benefit scum" part, specifically. My bad.

Unvote

[imopen2]

Z: I don't see anything especially wrong with ham's play so far. It is a little surprising that he didn't comment on your fake claim, but this is his second game, right? Not everyone takes to mafia as quickly as you

My comment about not thinking about who to lynch before the game started was in response to you saying I would "only" lynch ham with a cop result. What exactly would I base my decision to lynch ham on other than your fake result? He had zero posts at that point...this is what I'm talking about when I say your questions aren't thoughtful. You misrepresented my position (saying that I would ONLY lynch ham based on a confirmed scum result) and then asked me why I held that position.

It is scummy to go into a game and already consider lynching people before they post.

I would lynch ham as soon as I felt he
was scum. At the time of your gambit he had zero posts and at this point he has two I believe.

My opinion on him is null, like most of my reads, until he posts more.

Thoughtful is a subjective term but IMO it means that you put some solid thought into your questions in order to reduce the noise:signal ratio and garner good information for the town. I think information is great for the town, but too much information could cause us to talk in circles, jump at shadows, [insert cliche here] and mislynch townies.

Questions:
Why did you chose ham as the subject of your gambit?

Why has your opinion of how someone should play a power role changed from page 1 to page 3? You told wraith that a cop shouldn't sit back and wait (which is exactly what they should do in order to stay alive and be valuable) but then on page three you tell freedom that a PR should sit back an wait so as not to be killed by bringing attention to themselves like you are doing right now.

"Why would attracting attention to
myself mean "I am playing the role right"? Playing like this is going to get me killed quickly; either through mislynch or through mafia night kill. It doesn't benefit town for me to die early when I have an important role. Please elaborate as I am sure you have more to say." -for reference

[imopen2]

Unvote, Vote Freedom

That scumslip, so amaze

[Jack]

First up, great fucking post Freedom.

I do think you're very wrong about saying that I don't make substantive posts though. Maybe not in the clan thread where I just mess around, but I would submit that every article I have ever written is pretty thoughtful and reflective.

I'm not saying that you don't make substantive posts, just that you make a lot of unsubstantial ones. You have a lot of great articles and some really nice primers, but you also seem to favor brevity.

Why would attracting attention to myself mean &
quot;I am playing the role right"? Playing like this is going to get me killed quickly; either through mislynch or through mafia night kill. It doesn't benefit town for me to die early when I have an important role. Please elaborate as I am sure you have more to say.

Why are you afraid of dying? It doesn't matter if you die as town, just that we kill all the scum. What's the town win condition again?

I do have more thoughts on this topic, I just don't know exactly how to put them. Reading your response kinda dissuaded me from my previous thinking, but I guess this would be the point of your post, as a lot of mine is pretty accusatory. You're right in that, if you're town, the scum will probably want to kill you quickly, as you seem to be doing a lot for the town. I'm back and forth between "good bluffer" and "very helpful townie" with my read on you. Now, I'm thinking that you're probably town, and that I really
don't want to see you out of this game so soon. More thoughts to come later. I had a lot more written, but I deleted it because I realized that it sounded stupid and I couldn't back up a lot of it with reasoning.

[Jack]

So... I guess we're lynching freedom now? I've never been in a game that had such a blatant slip, but I can't rationalize any possible town thought process for posting that.

Unvote, Vote freedom.

zem: Just a bad joke.

Explain.

Stupid sarcasm that I hope doesn't mean the end of the game for me.

[imopen2]

Freedom: is English your first language?

[Jack]

Oh, looks like i fucked up quoting big time in my second to last post. Somehow, I quoted a post that I will have made 14 hours and 14 minutes in the future with the things I meant to say in the present.

[Jack]

Freedom: is English your first language?

Yes.

[Jack]

I think that I speak and write in English very well (much better than most people I know, for sure), but I sometimes have trouble with quickly translating my thoughts into words. I can write a damn good paper, but it's possible that my forum posts may seem poorly composed at times.

[Wraith223]

Got a break from work.

@Zem, just talking shit and babbling to just hear yourself talk is crappy posting at it's core. Why do you keep repeating yourself (crappy posts)? Not getting the answers you want from me? I poste anything these days and you call it crappy posting. Thus why bother responding anymore to scum, mental priming. "trying to speed the game up" is a classic means for scum to survive as town folks are at risk more when they make hasty, primed decisions. Looking at the opposite perspective, Zem could really be trying to get scum to slip up as freedom did. Will still be watching Zem closely.

This is my first game and do not expect special treatment. Rushing in on calls for lynching appear odd. It gives scum oppertunity to push an agenda. Also, why are so many refering to past games? I thought that was not allowed.

@Stardust, I found the speed of which you went on the attack way odd, but I
am new. I am not a fast vote changer, but freedom's recent poste caught my attention. Although, I am not sure of the point of such poste but to change votes away from Zem? I am not sure if Scum know who each other are and will poorly defend each other.

Unvote Zem, Vote Freedom

Unfortunately, stupidity of that caliber would have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory on its own without Zem.

[zemanjaski]

- snip-

@Zem, just talking shit and babbling to just hear yourself talk is crappy posting at it's core. Why do you keep repeating yourself (crappy posts)? Not getting the answers you want from me? I poste anything these days and you call it crappy posting. Thus why bother responding anymore to scum, mental priming. "trying to speed the game up" is a classic means for scum to survive as town folks are at risk more when they make hasty, primed decisions. Looking at the opposite perspective, Zem could really be trying to get scum to slip up as freedom did. Will still be watching Zem closely.

This is my first game and do not expect special treatment. - snip -

but I am new

The bolded parts look weird to me.

I asked you questions you haven't answered. Are you really going to avoid them because I might criticize the answers?

[imopen2]

I think that I speak and write in English very well (much better than most people I know, for sure), but I sometimes have trouble with quickly translating my thoughts into words. I can write a damn good paper, but it's possible that my forum posts may seem poorly composed at times.

Your phrasing is just poor. I'm trying to figure out how/why you would make that post as town. It's not even sarcasm...

[Jack]

Yup, nothing more than a jest. A bad one that I'd bet nobody laughed at (although I'm sure a lot of you laughed at me), but still made in jest and should not have been given any real thought at all. I don't know exactly how to convince you guys to remove your votes, but it might help that I took the time to type in [//i], which is usually indicative of sarcasm. I guess sarcasm isn't the right word for it, but I'm not so stupid as to state clearly (yet indirectly) that I'm scum.

[Jack]

Maybe we can all learn something from this, though.
4 people think that I am scum.
The scum already know who the other scum are.
The 4 that voted for me are probably town (or scum that see this as a way to disguise their alignment). Hmm, I guess this leaves us with less than I thought.

[zemanjaski]

Kind of looks like you're flailing a bit, but you could just as easily be noob town as noob scum.

For now I will leave my vote on you because I just hate that admission, even if intended as sarcasm. Like the others, I cannot fathom a town mindset; such a comment is always going to attract oodles of attention, which distracts the town from finding scum (hurts town) and may result in a mislynch (hurts town).

You talked a bunch about me bluffing, which means you're well across the idea, and it isn't uncommon, in my experience as a lawyer, for people to verbalise what they're doing when placed under pressure, even when not as an admission. Maybe you were thinking of bluffing so were looking for bluffs in my posts?

In future, if you're town, don't do things like that. If you're scum though, please keep it up

[imopen2]

Yea I'm baffled..it is such an obvious mistake that it seems too good to be true. I don't know of the "too good to be true mantra" is something to be followed or disregarded in mafia

[imopen2]

If the*

[Wraith223]

- snip-

@Zem, just talking shit and babbling to just hear yourself talk is crappy posting at it's core. Why do you keep repeating yourself (crappy posts)? Not getting the answers you want from me? I poste anything these days and you call it crappy posting. Thus why bother responding anymore to scum, mental priming. "trying to speed the game up" is a classic means for scum to survive as town folks are at risk more when they make hasty, primed decisions. Looking at the opposite perspective, Zem could really be trying to get scum to slip up as freedom did.
Will still be watching Zem closely.

This is my first game and do not expect special treatment. - snip -

but I am new

The bolded parts look weird to me.

I asked you questions you haven't answered. Are you really going to avoid them because I might criticize the answers?

Any post not worshiping your "briliiance" looks weird to you. D your own f'ing research to find out.

I somehow missed the question post. Ok, I can see you have never actually done any police work. A good LEO listens for the while, watches the first ones to speak, checks responses from others, and waits for evidence. No crime has been commited yet. It's still the first day. I would say it's a feel good session to make any big claims but...freedom. Yeah, not the brightest post. Generally, the loadest one screaming &
quot;look at someone else" is the scum. Letting the supstect talk themselves into a corner is nuub level interrogation skills. Your personality screams talk to appear the smartest guy in the room, thus a broad claim that scum hide in the shadows is missleading. The alternative is so overt; it's covert

We haven't heard from some in a great amount for analysis.

[Jack]

It wasn't meant to draw attention. I just assumed that people would read over it and possibly chuckle, and that those words would never start any discussion. Instead, people took it seriously and now I'm suddenly the most likely to die by the end of day 1. I guess it's better just to drop it and hope that I don't get any more votes.

Honestly, I was thinking of just sitting the first couple of plays out and learning how to think properly (I still haven't placed a vote), but I guess this can't happen anymore. In fact, this was probably a bad idea in the first place since, as you've pointed out, just sitting back and watching what happens is a pretty obvious scumtell.

Honestly, I am kinda flailing right now. I have more votes than anyone else, and I'm not exactly sure how to prevent myself from being killed. You said before that it doesn't matter if you die as a townie. This happens every night.
However, it does matter if people kill me instead of a scum during the day, because then the town's already two guys down.

I am town. I hope more than 6 people think this as well.

[Wraith223]

@Zem, on a side note, I rember hearing somewhere you are a lawyer? You have to know that talking just gets you in trouble.

Is there a town lawyer for Freedom? Sadly, the more Freedom cries he is not scum; the more he seems scum. I didn't see any explination on the statement that called his status into question. Instead we got "not me". If he wants to survive; please explain your thoughts on that statement more as I am listening.

[imopen2]

Z, now that I've asked you a couple questions you go silent?

[zemanjaski]

- snip-

@Zem, just talking shit and babbling to just hear yourself talk is crappy posting at it's core. Why do you keep repeating yourself (crappy posts)? Not getting the answers you want from me? I poste anything these days and you call it crappy posting. Thus why bother responding anymore to scum, mental priming. "trying to speed the game up" is a classic means for scum to survive as town folks are at risk
more when they make hasty, primed decisions. Looking at the opposite perspective, Zem could really be trying to get scum to slip up as freedom did. Will still be watching Zem closely.

This is my first game and do not expect special treatment. - snip -

but I am new

The bolded parts look weird to me.

I asked you questions you haven't answered. Are you really going to avoid them because I might criticize the answers?

Any post not worshiping your "briliiance" looks weird to you. D your own f'ing research to find out.

I somehow missed the question post. Ok, I can see you have never actually done any police work. A good LEO listens for the while, watches the first ones to speak, checks responses from others, and waits for evidence. No crime has been commited yet. It's still
the first day. I would say it's a feel good session to make any big claims but...freedom. Yeah, not the brightest post. Generally, the loadest one screaming "look at someone else" is the scum. Letting the supstect talk themselves into a corner is nuub level interrogation skills. Your personality screams talk to appear the smartest guy in the room, thus a broad claim that scum hide in the shadows is missleading. The alternative is so overt; it's covert

We haven't heard from some in a great amount for analysis.

OK, you're frustrated town. Thanks I think you can leave the personal attacks for the clan thread though, I am very happy to take it up there or in PM.

FYI scum to hide in the shadows in mafia, there are lots of articles on it.

[pedit]Wraith, yes I am a lawyer. And I would disagree that talking gets you in to trouble. I don't work in criminal law, I
am a commercial laywer so it is a different mindset. It's my job to get people talking and agreeing.

I think not talking broadly benefits scum. If no one says anything, then we'll never find them. Thoughts?

I agree with you that freedom now finds himself in a difficult position. An alternative for him to avoid being the lynch toDay would be to find someone more scummy that we can lynch instead.

[zemanjaski]

Z, now that I've asked you a couple questions you go silent?

Sorry, I can't find any questions you have posed for me that I haven't answered, can you direct me to them?

[zemanjaski]

Post 94 right? Sorry man, I missed it. Will write something up ASAP.

[imopen2]

Z: I don't see anything especially wrong with ham's play so far. It is a little surprising that he didn't comment on your fake claim, but this is his second game, right? Not everyone takes to mafia as quickly as you

My comment about not thinking about who to lynch before the game started was in response to you saying I would "only" lynch ham with a cop result. What exactly would I base my decision to lynch ham on other than your fake result? He had zero posts at that point...this is what I'm talking about when I say your questions aren't thoughtful. You misrepresented my position (saying that I would ONLY lynch ham based on a confirmed scum result) and then asked me
why I held that position.

It is scummy to go into a game and already consider lynching people before they post.

I would lynch ham as soon as I felt he was scum. At the time of your gambit he had zero posts and at this point he has two I believe.

My opinion on him is null, like most of my reads, until he posts more.

Thoughtful is a subjective term but IMO it means that you put some solid thought into your questions in order to reduce the noise:signal ratio and garner good information for the town. I think information is great for the town, but too much information could cause us to talk in circles, jump at shadows, [insert cliche here] and mislynch townies.

Questions:
Why did you chose ham as the subject of your gambit?

Why has your opinion of how someone should play a power role changed from page 1 to page 3? You told wraith that a cop shouldn't sit back and wait (which is exactly what they should do in order to stay alive and be valuable) but then on page three you tell freedom that a
PR should sit back an wait so as not to be killed by bringing attention to themselves like you are doing right now.

"Why would attracting attention to myself mean "I am playing the role right"? Playing like this is going to get me killed quickly; either through mislynch or through mafia night kill. It doesn't benefit town for me to die early when I have an important role. Please elaborate as I am sure you have more to say." -for reference

Did you miss this whole post?

[zemanjaski]

Sorry about missing this post, have interactions with so many people going on!

Z: I don't see anything especially wrong with ham's play so far. It is a little surprising that he didn't comment on your fake claim, but this is his second game, right? Not everyone takes to mafia as quickly as you

Sure, but the way he reacted specifically is a bit iffy to me. I might be overthinking it, but I would rather start from a position of suspicion.

My comment about not thinking about who to lynch before the game started was in response to you saying I would "only" lynch ham with a cop result. What exactly would I base my decision to lynch ham
on other than your fake result? He had zero posts at that point...this is what I'm talking about when I say your questions aren't thoughtful. You misrepresented my position (saying that I would ONLY lynch ham based on a confirmed scum result) and then asked me why I held that position.

It is scummy to go into a game and already consider lynching people before they post.

I would lynch ham as soon as I felt he was scum. At the time of your gambit he had zero posts and at this point he has two I believe.

My opinion on him is null, like most of my reads, until he posts more.

I think we're misunderstanding each other. I didn't mean to suggest that you would only lynch with a confirmed cop result; I was finding it strange that you thought that me not leading with the gambit in my first post was relevant. I've got enough info on this point now to satisfy my curiosity, but please do ask more questions if you have them.

Thoughtful is a subjective term but IMO it
means that you put some solid thought into your questions in order to reduce the noise:signal ratio and garner good information for the town. I think information is great for the town, but too much information could cause us to talk in circles, jump at shadows, [insert cliche here] and mislynch townies.

I hadn't really considered that, mostly through ignorance. I appreciate that too much information can be overwhelming. Like I said though, I am really trialing a new approach, so the critique is very valuable to me. Keep it coming.

Questions:
Why did you chose ham as the subject of your gambit?

I already RVS voted for him. Then I saw SD mention a gambit and I was like, "fuck it, that sounds like exactly the thing to generate discussion". I went with Ham because I had already RVS'd him and I thought it would look even more obvious than it already did to unvote and then vote someone else.

Why has your opinion of how
someone should play a power role changed from page 1 to page 3? You told wraith that a cop shouldn't sit back and wait (which is exactly what they should do in order to stay alive and be valuable) but then on page three you tell freedom that a PR should sit back an wait so as not to be killed by bringing attention to themselves like you are doing right now.

I was talking more to wraith in the sense of town generally. I still don't think town should hold back. I am only in my second game and its likely I don't fully grasp how important power roles are yet; SD's post about cop's gave me some more insight. I have no idea how mafia sniff out power roles, as it didn't really happen in the Ragnarok game. It doesn't matter though, I am not a cop.

[zemanjaski]

Z: I don't see anything especially wrong with ham's play so far. It is a little surprising that he didn't comment on your fake claim, but this is his second game, right? Not everyone takes to mafia as quickly as you

My comment about not thinking about who to lynch before the game started was in response to you saying I would "only" lynch ham with a cop result. What exactly would I base my decision to lynch ham on other than your fake result? He had zero posts at that point...this is what I'm talking about
when I say your questions aren't thoughtful. You misrepresented my position (saying that I would ONLY lynch ham based on a confirmed scum result) and then asked me why I held that position.

It is scummy to go into a game and already consider lynching people before they post.

I would lynch ham as soon as I felt he was scum. At the time of your gambit he had zero posts and at this point he has two I believe.

My opinion on him is null, like most of my reads, until he posts more.

Thoughtful is a subjective term but IMO it means that you put some solid thought into your questions in order to reduce the noise:signal ratio and garner good information for the town. I think information is great for the town, but too much information could cause us to talk in circles, jump at shadows, [insert cliche here] and mislynch townies.

Questions:
Why did you chose ham as the subject of your gambit?

Why has your opinion of how someone should play a power role changed from page 1 to page 3? You told wraith
that a cop shouldn't sit back and wait (which is exactly what they should do in order to stay alive and be valuable) but then on page three you tell freedom that a PR should sit back an wait so as not to be killed by bringing attention to themselves like you are doing right now.

"Why would attracting attention to myself mean "I am playing the role right"? Playing like this is going to get me killed quickly; either through mislynch or through mafia night kill. It doesn't benefit town for me to die early when I have an important role. Please elaborate as I am sure you have more to say." -for reference

Did you miss this whole post?

Please read my post #116...

[InflatablePie]

which helps the town (which people tell me that I should appear as so that the real town doesn't kill me)..

not voting freedom yet though, this is too easy.

I need to go back and actually read all of the fucking text walls y'all have posted, which is a chore.