Primer: R/w/x Aggro

[Lightning_Dolt]

Very good post Johnny_Spike, your suggested deck-list is solid except you HAVE to play 4x Magma Jet in a 25 land deck (we can make our own luck with MJ) I would cut one Firedrinker Satyr for it because he is a huge liability at times.

I'm a bit iffy on 0x SkullCrack with Black still in the meta game, but I do understand the love for non-condition burn spells.

In regards to the Packs, can you trade them in to the LGS for store credit? In MODO I think of each pack as $3.37.

(on other new, I won another 8-Man which qualified me for MOCS1 (2014) Prelim)

EDIT: No LI for anti-Last Breath Tech?

On Magma Jet: I see the value. I was running it over Lightning Strike at one point. It is solid, but I think three is fine. I ran three
in this event and it seemed ok.

On Skullcrack: I do not think it is necesary really. None of the SCG lists have run a single copy.

On the packs: No option to trade them in. Even if I could ¥1280 < ¥1500 in spite of top 8.

[Helios]

Good work in the gpt JS!

Just a point of contention, SCG lists mean nothing. You know as well as I do that really trash decks can top / win with absolutely no problems. Just look at the red lists that get played.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Good work in the gpt JS!

Just a point of contention, SCG lists mean nothing. You know as well as I do that really trash decks can top / win with absolutely no problems. Just look at the red lists that get played.

I strongly disagree. See LPs comments. Also, there were so many misplays in the finals of the GP I wonder about how we're assessing those as well.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Keep in mind, this deck was one of the top decks in the standard portion of the Pro Tour as well, no skullcracks. Top 4 & a Top 16 in SCGO, no skullcracks.
Z scolded me for adding skullcrack too, so he's against it.

[magicdownunder]

Skullcrack can represent 5 or more damage against Bx devotion and UW/x Control decks so it shouldn't be underrated, that said I do understand the love for undisputed 4 damage thus I respect your opinion for extra Charms over cracks though I don't agree with it. (its like how I always want 4x MJ since I personally love scry, its not 100% needed but to me it is )

Last Time

---

[deck=MDU's Boros Sun Legions]Lands 25
11 Mountains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate

Creatures 19
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Boros Reckoner
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 10
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Mizzium Mortars

Enchantments 5
4 Chained to the Rocks
1 Legion's Initiative

Planeswalker 1
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

Sideboard
15
2 Boros Reckoner
2 Last Breath
1 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Rod of Ruin
3 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]
Standard Elimination G1: Boros Sun Legion vs Bx Devotion (Event 6430815)
Standard Elimination G2: Boros Sun Legion vs Esper (Event 6430815)
Standard Elimination G3: Boros Sun Legion vs Bx Devotion (Event 6430815

Here is the next set running the same list (I have 3 more after this one):

Standard Elimination G1: Boros Sun Legion vs Bx Devotion (Event 6432208)
Standard Elimination G2: Boros Sun Legion vs RW Devotion (Event 6432208)
Standard Elimination G3: Boros Sun Legion vs Ux Devotion (Event 6432208)

Here is the next set running the same list (I have 2 more after this one) I'll be taking a small break from magic since I have 15 QPs, 3 boosters and $500 extra tixs saved for when DE start up again:

Standard Elimination G1: Boros Sun Legion vs Ux Devotion (Event 6442190)
Standard Elimination G2: Boros Sun Legion vs Ux Devotion (Event 6442190)
Standard Elimination G3: Split

[LP, of the Fires]

I'm likely cutting the Elspeth for 1 Chandra on the recommendation of everyone(based in logic). Since I really want 4 ash zealots though, i'll probably just run 61 cards. We'll call the 61st legions initiative as justification since it's a high enough impact one-of that's not central to my strategy but I refuse to cut anything else.

What can I say, in my old age, I'm doing what I want.

[Pedros]

We don't need anymore manasinks, SBD, Elspeth and Mortars are more then enough.

To be honest I missed that part MDU. This is solid ignorance, to point sbd. Elsp and mortars. Are mana sinks. Not, they are not mana sinks, they are just big costed spells. Mana sinks is stuff that you take advantage of while not using any cards (ie produces card advantage), that cost resonable mana in mid game. If only Rix Maadi guildmage or Erebos was in red white...

@JS

Werent you one person who said LI is very good? Now, that metagame changed to a point it is even better (16 last breath in top 8 of gp) you want to bandon it?
I dont understand when some of you wrote it just was 2 damage. It was 2 Haste damage, that can stay for more value + protection
from sweeper.

I liked elspeth, however she often stuck in hand for very lomg time. Sometimes WW is also a problem, and having 6 taplands may destroy your curve too much. It is also not a mountain for chained which sometimes may affect our curve.

Really like having chandra back, as both of her effects seems good in this deck. She helps dragons pass collosuses and demons

[magicdownunder]

We don't need anymore manasinks, SBD, Elspeth and Mortars are more then enough.

To be honest I missed that part MDU. This is solid ignorance, to point sbd. Elsp and mortars. Are mana sinks. Not, they are not mana sinks, they are just big costed spells. Mana sinks is stuff that you take advantage of while not using any cards (ie produces card advantage), that cost resonable mana in mid game. If only Rix Maadi guildmage or Erebos was in red white...

Ouch that was harsh, your correct those are not Manasinks but really heavy costed spells, that
said I still don't think we need manasink since everything we have available for us is just horrible.

I'm content with sinking mana into vaults and burn each turn , if you believe we really need something the best other sink is Hammer (which is horrible).

[Pedros]

We don't need anymore manasinks, SBD, Elspeth and Mortars are more then enough.

To be honest I missed that part MDU. This is solid ignorance, to point sbd. Elsp and mortars. Are mana sinks. Not, they are not mana sinks, they are just big costed spells. Mana sinks is stuff that you take advantage of while not using any cards (ie produces card advantage), that cost resonable mana in mid game. If
only Rix Maadi guildmage or Erebos was in red white...

Ouch that was harsh, your correct those are not Manasinks but really heavy costed spells, that said I still don't think we need manasink since everything we have available for us is just horrible.

I'm content with sinking mana into vaults and burn each turn , if you believe we really need something the best other sink is Hammer (which is horrible).

Yeah I ight be too harsh, sorry, however you didnt ever had problem with flood? 25 lands is a lot of lands to draw, and we dont have anything to use it later. Gruul and Rakdos guildmages are perfect for it, even Heliod would be nice (if only ability cost 1 less W mana).

Sunhome guildmage isnt as bad with LI, 2/2 haste tokens areent that bad. But those are 2 cards.

Maybe make sth like Br agro - sth like rb that won gp, but with pack rats(ulimate mana sinks),
mutavaults, dragons, exava, demon but with good red and black removal? Necromancer to turn creatures into zombies? Can manabase work for this kind of deck?

[magicdownunder]

It does sound like a very creative and interesting idea, I wouldn't know how to begin to build an aggressive list with those cards though since I'll just automatically gravitate into BR control (DD, SBD, Artifact RB, Vaults, AotG and spot removal + Discards).

We should try and keep the non-boros ideas away from this thread though. Esp. now since we have some nice Boros Discussion in which direction to take the deck next.

On Topic: I Agree that we need to address the control issue with the Boros List, I'm liking the direction J_S is taking the deck.

I think the core cards now a days should be:

[deck]49 Main[/deck]
I think we can all agree that in the
current meta game these 49 cards should not change, how we move from here is important.

(after Elspeth forced me into running 10 white sources, I decided that I actually prefer it this way )

[Purp]

Haven't played much singe my IQ win but I have a GPT coming up this Saturday so I guess I need to pay attention to the events from this past weekend. I''ll be able to play Tues and Thurs night magic this week to prepare. I am getting the gyst we are moving away from PyroBoros towards Big Boros, I notice we are not really discussing the devotion route. Could this be an error on our part?

[magicdownunder]

Haven't played much singe my IQ win but I have a GPT coming up this Saturday so I guess I need to pay attention to the events from this past weekend. I''ll be able to play Tues and Thurs night magic this week to prepare. I am getting the gyst we are moving away from PyroBoros towards Big Boros, I notice we are not really discussing the devotion route. Could this be an error on our part?

Johnny_Spike mention at one stage that Devotion was the natural evolution of the original Sullivan list and I would have to agree, if you enjoy having explosive god hands and prefer winning through creatures then Devo Boros is the list for you.

The variant which were currently sporting here however is a heavy burn+removal version with a backup plan via vaults and
phoenix when things go sour.

Both decks are good, just pick the one your comfortable with.

[dpaine88]

I think that is SPOT on for the core.

I appreciate you giving the devotion decks its props MDU. Its easy to just dismiss it when you are focused on this kind of deck.

[Purp]

Well I would definitely say this bigger boros list would be what I am most comfortable with. I played a Mage in WoW, so I just feel so at home casting fire spells in magic!

[deck]Lands 25
11 Mountains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate

Creatures 16
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 4
4 Lightning Strike

Enchantments 4
4 Chained to the Rocks[/deck]

So if we are agreeing this is our core list, I guess it's time to base the relevant choices off these results of this past weekend. I personally love magma jet, so I think I would make that an auto 4 of. I like the style of magic it allows me to play, the only time I hate seeing one in my hand is when I am looking at an opponents NVS.

[deck]Lands 25
11 Mountains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate

Creatures 16
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash
Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 11
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Mizzium Mortars

Enchantments 4
4 Chained to the Rocks
1 Assemble

Planes 3
3 Chandra Pyromaster[/deck]

I just love what Chandra can do for this deck.

[Pedros]

I dont think we need 2nd boros guildgate without elspeth in the deck. However it is more important if we want reckoners or satyrs mb (I think only I played without mb satyrs and put them to sb). If we want satyrs I would say play mountains, with reckoners playing extra guildgate shouldnt be a problem. Personally I would even think about godless shrine - white source to cast cackler turn 1.

So:

Satyrs vs Reckoners vs split of them (dont want to talk more about this as I think I told enough). Somertime ago reckoners were thought to be universal answer vs monp blue, now everyone is saing it is bad, whle the u deckm didnt change (they played domestication for a while)

Extra removal:

I am happy with mortars and magma jets mb, first is good vs a field, 2nd fixes draws and is solid removal.

Chandra - falter ± extra draw + phoenix recurnce. 1 of minimal, want 2.

Dknt like talking about 4 zealots without 4 magma
jets.

[LaZerBurn]

I'm 99% happy with the core 49. I can see a case for 3 Dragons and 24 land though (and perhaps 3 Zealots too, although I personally favour 4).

I also like 4 Jets and 2 Chandra That leaves 5 - 7 slots to play with.

I see our choices as -
FDS - good against Control and Bx. Not good against Ux, Aggro and the rest of the field - Gx, GR, Rx etc
Reckoner - good against Aggro and the ROTF. Not good against Control and Bx. Good/not good against Ux depending on your views on Domesticate.
Mortars - good against everything except UW Control. Especially good with 24/25 land.
MD 'Tech' cards - LI, Elspeth, Assemble ... - all are very good cards. I am expecting an increase in UW so LI is currently the best pick of the bunch I think - LB evasion, +1 is good against Jace (and amazing in combination with Assemble). I like it's synergy with the rest
of the deck and it's casting cost is also in it's favour over Assemble and Elspeth. Shame it doesn't pump Vaults That said I think there is a case for running Boros Charm over LI as it delivers a more reliable 4 damage while still offering protection from sweepers. Recurs Phoenix too.

I'm going to go with FDS. He shines against Bx and Control and I like the early beats backed up by removal strategy with Vaults, Phoenix and Chandra for the long game. I also like switching to a control/burn heavy build post board. This isn't a widespread strategy outside of DTR as far as I can tell (my Rx opps leave 1 drops in for G2 95% of the time) and so still has a surprise factor.

Mortars also make the cut for me. They are are great against everything apart from UW Control and fit nicely into the apply pressure kill everything G1 strategy and the kill everything apply pressure G2 switch

I like running Reckoner in a full on control package with no 1 drops rather than as part of 1 drop, 2 drop, 3 drop curve so I am going to keep him in the board. I know that Pedros has very successfully ran the Reck main and FDS SB so this is purely my preference.

So my list looks like this -

[deck]Deck[/deck]
Have to say again I am really enjoying the discussion on this thread, some excellent and well thought out contributions Thanks to Johnny for the Primer, MDU for the current deck and everyone else for your input

[dauntless268]

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=159704#p159704:1h70xe7a]LaZerBurn » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:24 pm[/url:1h70xe7a]":1h70xe7a]I'm 99% happy with the core 49. I can see a case for 3 Dragons and 24 land though (and perhaps 3 Zealots too, although I personally favour 4).

I also like 4 Jets and 2 Chandra That leaves 5 - 7 slots to play with.

I see our choices as -
FDS - good against Control and Bx. Not good against Ux, Aggro and the rest of the field - Gx, GR, Rx etc
Reckoner - good against Aggro and the ROTF. Not good against Control and Bx. Good/not good against Ux depending on your views on Domesticate.
Mortars - good against everything except UW Control. Especially good with 24/25 land.
MD 'Tech' cards - LI, Elspeth, Assemble ... - all are very good cards. I am expecting an increase in UW so LI
is currently the best pick of the bunch I think - LB evasion, +1 is good against Jace (and amazing in combination with Assemble). I like it's synergy with the rest of the deck and it's casting cost is also in it's favour over Assemble and Elspeth. Shame it doesn't pump Vaults That said I think there is a case for running Boros Charm over LI as it delivers a more reliable 4 damage while still offering protection from sweepers. Recurs Phoenix too.

I'm going to go with FDS. He shines against Bx and Control and I like the early beats backed up by removal strategy with Vaults, Phoenix and Chandra for the long game. I also like switching to a control/burn heavy build post board. This isn't a widespread strategy outside of DTR as far as I can tell (my Rx opps leave 1 drops in for G2 95% of the time) and so still has a surprise factor.

Mortars also make the cut for me. They are are great against everything apart from UW
Control and fit nicely into the apply pressure kill everything G1 strategy and the kill everything apply pressure G2 switch

I like running Reckoner in a full on control package with no 1 drops rather than as part of 1 drop, 2 drop, 3 drop curve so I am going to keep him in the board. I know that Pedros has very successfully ran the Reck main and FDS SB so this is purely my preference.

So my list looks like this -

[deck]Deck[/deck]
Have
to say again I am really enjoying the discussion on this thread, some excellent and well thought out contributions Thanks to Johnny for the Primer, MDU for the current deck and everyone else for your input [/quote:1h70xe7a]

Hi Lazerburn, funny I run almost the exact same maindeck (4th SBD instead of Legion's Initiative, 1 Guildgate instead of a Mountain) on MODO for some time now. Quite like it, though I feel it isn't yet where I want to be.

Here's a few thoughts / experiences:
[*] I haven't had many issues getting to 5 mana with 24 lands - I was myself positively surprised but Jet and Temple definitely help here
[*] I have made the switch to 2 Mizz Mortars MD recently (before, I ran 2 FotF). I know it helps against the Devotion decks, but I wonder if our control Matchup is still good enough Pre-Board with 6 Terrors?
[*] My main
issue with the deck is that sometimes I get stuck with a 1 drop, a 5 drop and too little to do in between. This hurts e.g. when you play MBD. Problem is that you don't really want to activate Mutavaults early with a SBD in hand. Feel like the deck would either benefit from adding 2 two-drop-threats (YP$ or Gore House Chainwalker? But what to cut?) or go indeed 1 level bigger with Elspeth like MDU suggests - this PW takes over games in an amazing way.

On the SB
[*] I like a singleton Glare of Heresy SB against both control (hits Detention Sphere) and Rx Devotion (exiles Reckoner)
[*] Rod of Ruin was already good in Pyro Red, shouldn't it be even better in here because of the extra land(s) we run?
[*] Consider an extra Chandra in the SB vs. control?
[*] How many Reckoners? These days we don't bring in Reckoners anymore against Mono U Devotion, so may 2 be enough? But maybe we still need more for the Rx and Gx Devotion matchups. Not really sure here...

[PirateKingAtomsk]

@dauntless i like the idea of a single glare for control over a 3rd crack, deals with what you mentioned plus opposing elspheth's. rod is tech against mow, where last breath does the same for cheap at the cost of healing your opponent it can also be used on your own creatures in a pinch for lifegain. reckon still holds some value is certain matchups but not much so 3 of in sb seems fine cause when you want them you still need to draw them.personally i think chandra is good for advantage but can divert your attention towards protecting her so i'd run her as a 1 of and run an assemble mainboard for b/x.

[LP, of the Fires]

I think that is SPOT on for the core.

I appreciate you giving the devotion decks its props MDU. Its easy to just dismiss it when you are focused on this kind of deck.

For those interested in exploring red devotion(nykthos based), you need to become VERY familiar with the archetype before playing it in tourney. In the quarterfinals of dallas, Huey's opponent lost a very favorable matchup in a game where he was in dominant position by playing his nykthos combo deck like a normal magic deck. Part of Nykthos red is knowing when to keep very loose hands, and knowing when to overcommit to the board.

In short, it's not something you just pick up and play.

[LaZerBurn]

Hi Lazerburn, funny I run almost the exact same maindeck (4th SBD instead of Legion's Initiative, 1 Guildgate instead of a Mountain) on MODO for some time now. Quite like it, though I feel it isn't yet where I want to be.

Here's a few thoughts / experiences:
[*] I haven't had many issues getting to 5 mana with 24 lands - I was myself positively surprised but Jet and Temple definitely help here
[*] I have made the switch to 2 Mizz Mortars MD recently (before, I ran 2 FotF). I know it helps against the Devotion decks, but I wonder if our control Matchup is still good enough Pre-Board with 6 Terrors?
[*] My main issue with the deck is that sometimes I get stuck with a 1 drop, a 5 drop and too little to do in between. This hurts e.g. when you play
MBD. Problem is that you don't really want to activate Mutavaults early with a SBD in hand. Feel like the deck would either benefit from adding 2 two-drop-threats (YP$ or Gore House Chainwalker? But what to cut?) or go indeed 1 level bigger with Elspeth like MDU suggests - this PW takes over games in an amazing way.

On the SB
[*] I like a singleton Glare of Heresy SB against both control (hits Detention Sphere) and Rx Devotion (exiles Reckoner)
[*] Rod of Ruin was already good in Pyro Red, shouldn't it be even better in here because of the extra land(s) we run?
[*] Consider an extra Chandra in the SB vs. control?
[*] How many Reckoners? These days we don't bring in Reckoners anymore against Mono U Devotion, so may 2 be enough? But maybe we still need more for the Rx and Gx Devotion matchups. Not really sure here...

Hi Dauntless

You're braver than me running 4 Dragons off 24 land Interesting to hear you've had no issues.

Esper is fine with 6 Terror's. I've not played UW enough to be certain that it is too but I've not had any trouble so far. Scry helps with this too obviously.

I find that too sometimes. I personally wouldn't run GHC in this build and I'm not sure you'd get enough value from YP in here - I think PyroDragons is a better option if you want to run him. Reckoner main is a possibility, Pedros has had success with this and MDU's last Boros Legions list had 2 MD. MDU has been running Elspeth recently too. She doesn't solve the gap issue though and I think you would need to add the 25th land for her. I've not tested her myself.

Glare is good (MDU has been testing it) and might find it's way in, my SB is almost always a WIP

Rod is still good, LB is just way more flexible and with Dragons it's easier
to make up the life gain than in the Pyro builds so I wanted to test 3 over 2 and a Rod.

I don't think I could find room for Chandra in the SB.

I want 3/4 Reckoners because if I run them I want to see them

[dpaine88]

I think that is SPOT on for the core.

I appreciate you giving the devotion decks its props MDU. Its easy to just dismiss it when you are focused on this kind of deck.

For those interested in exploring red devotion(nykthos based), you need to become VERY familiar with the archetype before playing it in tourney. In the quarterfinals of dallas, Huey's opponent lost a very favorable matchup in a game where he was in dominant position by playing his nykthos combo deck like a normal magic deck. Part of Nykthos red is knowing when to keep very loose hands, and knowing when to overcommit
to the board.

In short, it's not something you just pick up and play.

Could you elaborate a little bit on

" very favorable matchup in a game where he was in dominant position by playing his nykthos combo deck like a normal magic deck. Part of Nykthos red is knowing when to keep very loose hands, and knowing when to overcommit to the board."

[LP, of the Fires]

So, game 1 he's ahead on board with ash zealot and BTE or something I think. he also has a domri ticking up, a nykthos and around 5/6 cards in hand. Huey's at a middling life total with a million cards in hands as well, and he either tapped out for a jace, a divination, or had passed with no action. I don't remember, but some or all of those things where going on. Now, Carlos had a mogis and a stormbreath in hand, but was "playing scared" as JVL said. The normal thing to do when you're ahead on board vs. control is just beat with 2 guys. WIth the devotion deck, you just play a bunch of spells and ask your opponent how they feel about taking 9 damage from a mogis. Even if he verdicts after that wiping gyour board, you still have a domri close to ultimate, and you'd spells to play with it while your opponent has zero breathing room.

I definitely remember there being a spot where he could have taken huey to 2,
and from there, he just needs to resolve reckoner, + literal any other creature and he just goes domri, reckoner, fight my own guy, dome you fro lethal if Huey ever taps out again in addition TO PRESENTING LETHAL DAMAGE ON BOARD. Instead, what happened is the game stayed close, huey eventually killed an unanswered turn 3 domri that got up to 7 counters with a fucking mutavault and displayed mastery in general over his opponent who should have won rather easily if he had been less risk averse.

[LP, of the Fires]

As far as the "loose keeps" go, you pretty much have to resign yourself to keeping most all mountain, nykthos burning-tree emissary hands since you can afford to miss a lot of land drops and still be able to recover, especially if you have multiple BTE. In testing some games where won after discarding 3 times ang going to six, then you shock yourself for stomping ground, play triple emissary, weird, mogis, take 9, untap, have access to way to much mana, and do degenerate things while putting your playtest partners on tilt.

[magicdownunder]

Good discussion guys, I'll argue the 2nd Boros Guildgate is a necessary evil when/if your running 10+ white sourced spell in your 75. In regards to Firedrinker Satyr/Boros Reckoner its a meta call, control has regain the helms in large events thus swarming tactics is again the better choice. In Modo I'll keep some Boros Reckoner MD maybe 1 or 2.

Still on my mini-break but here is what I'm thinking of running:

[deck=MDU's Boros Legions]Lands 25
11 Mountains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate

Creatures 19
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
1 Boros Reckoner
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 09
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
1 Mizzium Mortars

Enchantments 5
4 Chained to the Rocks
1 Legion's Initiative

Planeswalker 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard 15
2 Boros Reckoner
2 Last Breath
1 Flames of
the Firebrand
3 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

Notes:
2x Assemble the Legion is needed for the Rx Devotion and Bx Devotion MUs
I'm keeping [card]Legion's Initiative[/card] MD because I value Last Breath Protection and the ability to kill */3 creatures
I'm running Boros Reckoner/Mizzium Mortars split because they fill a similar role
Flames of the Firebrand is for Ux and */1 decks
Elspeth is horrible

[LP, of the Fires]

Ok, we keep Chandra. She's proven her worth to me again. Killed an esper player from 15 with BB on board with Chandra ult into skullcrack+dragon/phoenix for exacties.

[LaZerBurn]

Notes:
2x Assemble the Legion is needed for the Rx Devotion and Bx Devotion MUs
I'm keeping [card]Legion's Initiative[/card] MD because I value Last Breath Protection and the ability to kill */3 creatures
I'm running Boros Reckoner/Mizzium Mortars split because they fill a similar role
Flames of the Firebrand is for Ux and */1 decks
Elspeth is horrible

Is Assemble quick enough Vs Redx Devo?

Can you expand on the Mortars/Reckoner role please? I know it was mentioned earlier in the thread but I'm missing something here

I like FotF but is a 1 off enough? If I want to see a card I generally like 2 is all.

Phew,
glad I didn't buy Elspeth now

[Lightning_Dolt]

＠Pedros: Initial testing was promising. I tried to run it as a 4 of, then a 3 of, then a 2 of, then cut it, but re-added it after seeing it do some work in MDU’s videos. However, VS a more competitive field it turned out to be really lack lustre. I personally think the card is really only good on T2. After that, it just seems like a terrible top deck. It is not a threat or something which must be dealt with. As a 1 of, you’re only going to see it 1 in 4 games, and in your opener (where you want it) 1 in 8. I personally do not think it’s good enough to dilute the deck for, or to harm our consistency for. I don’t think we need utility cards, as much as we need threats.

＠ Manasink discussion: We have 4x Mutavault and 2-4 Firedrinker Satyr. We cannot play hammer. It is such a non-bo in this deck. We want to hit 5-6 land. We can’t do that if we’re sacking land. Not to
mention that all our non-1 drop creatures already have haste. Yes, you will flood sometimes. If you play this deck, you accept it and move on. The guildmages are, in my opinion, not constructed playable.

＠ Magicdownunder: I really prefer the 10 white sources too. It’s just so much more consistent.

＠ Purp: The devotion route is definitely an option, but it plays quite differently, and plays a lot of cards I personally hate. I won’t be going that way. Like MDU said, there was one point where I believed that was the natural evolution of the deck, but it forced you to play with so many cards that are individually horrid in the name of synergy. I like this list better because it focusses on individual card quality and plays like an aggro deck, not a combo deck. Test it and see if you like it

＠ Last Breath. Everyone chill the fuck out. If they last breath,
they last breath. We hope they don’t last breathour phoenixes, but if they do, c’est la vie. We’re already favored against the decks running last breath. I’d rather see last breath than azorious charmmost of the time. With how well the control decks did this weekend, we’ll see a swing toward more control, and in turn, the control decks will have to play more anti-control cards and less hate for us. Regardless, main decks should be adjusted for the coming influx of control.

＠ The group: Good discussion guys. MDU asked me for a SB guide for my proposed deck list. Ask and you shall receive.

None of this is written in stone. If you think something doesn't make sense, let me know. Hoping to generate discussion.

Vs small aggro: -4 Rakdos Cackler, -4 Firedrinker Satyr, +4 Boros Reckoner, +2 [
card]Last Breath[/card], +2 Flames of the Firebrand

You are playing full control. Flames is very good VS all the X/1's, but be mindful of Brave the Elements.
Last Breath should be reserved for fiendslayer paladin.

Vs R/x: -4 Firedrinker Satyr, -4 Rakdos Cackler, -2 Chandra, Pyromaster, +4 Boros Reckoner, +2 Assemble the Legion, +2 Boros Charm, +2 Flames of the Firebrand

Edit: Updated after MDU's feedback, which I agree with. Helps to have a sober second thought.

.
Vs Green/x: -4 Rakdos Cackler, -4 Firedrinker Satyr, +4 Boros Reckoner, +2 [card]
Assemble the Legion[/card], +1 Flames of the Firebrand, +1 [card]Elspeth, Sun's Champion[/card]

1 Flames for dorks. You should be able to get a 2 for 1. Token generators because they lack trample if you chain Nylea. You are hoping to wall up and go over the top.

Vs: Blue/x: -4 Firedrinker Satyr, -4 Rakdos Cackler, +2 Flames of the Firebrand, +2 Last Breath, +3 Boros Charm, +1 [card]Elspeth, Sun's Champion[/card]

Elspeth is good VS Master of Waves as MDU has demonstrated. They have zero life gain, so Charm is good here too.

Vs: Black/x: -4 Stormbreath Dragon, -3 Magma Jet, -2 [card]Chandra, Pyromaster[/card:
27oycttz], +4 Boros Charm, +2 Assemble the Legion, +1 [card]Elspeth, Sun’s Champion[/card], +2 Flames of the Firebrand

Dragons are bad here. Token generators are good. I don't like Chandra here, because of [card]Hero's Downfall[/card]. If the HD your Elspeth, she's already had a high impact on the board.

Vs: Esper : -4 Chained to the Rocks, +4 Boros Charm

Chains are bad here. Mortars is acceptible because of Blood Baron of Vitzkopa.

Vs: UW : -2 Chained to the Rocks, -2 Mizzium Mortars, +4 Boros Charm

I think Chained is a little better than mortars here because their Archangel of Thunetends to
grow and you might not have the answer in hand.

Feedback welcome and appreciated.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I'm not sute I would go as far as to say Elspeth is horrible. She is really good in certain match ups (B/x, G/x,, U/x, possibly R/x, but she might be too slow). I think she's worth a 1 of in the SB.

[LaZerBurn]

Excellent guide Johnny, thanks

[magicdownunder]

@Johnny_Spike

I was activity trying to find some faults in your SB list and plan but it seems like all your cards have purpose in multiple MUs (no real niche cute cards) thus its an very effective use of your 75.

The only recommendation I can make is that in the R/x (Devo/big) MU I wouldn't recommend keeping Chandra, Pyromaster, because FoM and Dragons kinda ruin her day thus making room for Boros Charm.
I also don't like Last Breath here either mainly because it almost costed me a few games, so I'll take flames over it as away to kill a creature and bring back [card]Chandra's Phoenix[/card] or as another card to kill Boros Reckoner.

I look forward to your testing results, I'm still pushing for my proposed 75 for when DEs come back due to my beliefs in MJ and SC.

@LaZerBurn, where is your 75 at now?

P.S. Assembles can but
quite slow vs Rx but I find that many games usually come down to topdeck mode after the board is wiped when this stage happens Assemble shines. In-regards to the relationship with Reck and Mortars, they're both anti-Aggro/Midrange cards which are usually left in the SB, one can be toss at creatures - the other a extremely effective blocker.

@All: Z's new article is out now: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/playing-with-fire-thinking-about-red-cards-in-standard/

[LP, of the Fires]

@MDU, never addressed this in your vids, but mono-black players bring in lifebane zombie vs. you soley because it's a creature and they don't have enough cards to bring compared to everything they're taking out. Huey Jensen among others have said as much.

[magicdownunder]

@MDU, never addressed this in your vids, but mono-black players bring in lifebane zombie vs. you soley because it's a creature and they don't have enough cards to bring compared to everything they're taking out. Huey Jensen among others have said as much.

Ooooo its only been recent that I've seen people bring in lifebane zombie against me, I assumed it was for Boros Reckoner thus I just scoff at it. What are they taking out against me anyway? Most of their list is decent vs Big Red (heck even thoughtseize is decent).

[Tyrael]

Man I hope Z gets paid for that

A+ article

[Lightning_Dolt]

@Johnny_Spike

I was activity trying to find some faults in your SB list and plan but it seems like all your cards have purpose in multiple MUs (no real niche cute cards) thus its an very effective use of your 75.

The only recommendation I can make is that in the R/x (Devo/big) MU I wouldn't recommend keeping Chandra, Pyromaster, because FoM and Dragons kinda ruin her day thus making room for Boros Charm.
I also don't like Last Breath here either mainly because it almost costed me a few games, so I'll take flames over it as away to kill a creature and bring back [card]Chandra's Phoenix[/card] or as another card to kill Boros Reckoner.

I look forward to
your testing results, I'm still pushing for my proposed 75 for when DEs come back due to my beliefs in MJ and SC.

@LaZerBurn, where is your 75 at now?

P.S. Assembles can but quite slow vs Rx but I find that many games usually come down to topdeck mode after the board is wiped when this stage happens Assemble shines. In-regards to the relationship with Reck and Mortars, they're both anti-Aggro/Midrange cards which are usually left in the SB, one can be toss at creatures - the other a extremely effective blocker.

@All: Z's new article is out now: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/playing-with-fire-thinking-about-red-cards-in-standard/

That makes sense. Will update.

[Purp]

I am expecting to see a rise in the most recent burn list from the GP tonight at TNM. What is the strategy against this deck? Force them to use removal on my creatures instead of burning me?

Also MDU, you mind posting a quick SB for your list? I'll give it a run tonight and post some feedback. Confused on when LI is coming in and out.

[Narcasus]

If they are playing it card for card, you just want them to use all of their burn on your creatures and resolve a dragon that will be a nightmare for them to kill. The list from the GP holds no main or sideboard answers to dragon without a 2 for 1. i would consider holding your own burn for either YP or chandra pyromancer. I have had good sucess against smaller red decks but have a hell of a time any decks playing with a dragon. I would think many people will add in mortars though, so this may or may not work out perfectly.

[LaZerBurn]

@LaZerBurn, where is your 75 at now?

Here you go Still working on the SB plan, as ever

[deck=LaZer's Current 75]
Lands 24
12 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Creatures 19
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra’s Phoenix
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 11
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Flames Of The Firebrand

Thighs 2
2 Chandra, BCIS

Enchantments 4
4 Chained to the Rocks

Sideboard 15
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Skullcrack
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Last Breath
2 Assemble The Legion
n2 Boros Charm
1 Rod Of Ruin
[/deck]

[LaZerBurn]

@LaZerBurn, where is your 75 at now?

Here you go Still working on the SB & plan, it's not quite right yet

[deck=LaZer's Current 75]
Lands 24
12 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Creatures 19
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra’s Phoenix
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 11
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Mizzium Mortars
1
Flames Of The Firebrand

Thighs 2
2 Chandra, BCIS

Enchantments 4
4 Chained to the Rocks

Sideboard 15
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Skullcrack
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Last Breath
2 Assemble The Legion
2 Boros Charm
1 Rod Of Ruin
[/deck]

[Purp]

How has landing Assemble on 24 lands been Lazer?

[LaZerBurn]

Fine so far. I wasn't sure if it was the right call when I first dropped the 25th land but I've had no problems thus far.