Primer: R/w/x Aggro
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- dpaine88
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Is anybody feeling the lack of a 4-drop in these builds? For those wanting to play Chandra, I guess that fits the bill. But otherwise, going Phoenix t3, then t4 playing an assortment of whatever 1, 2, 3 cmc cards are in your hand, and waiting to drop dragon t5 seems like a slow curve to me. The lists are also sitting at 20 creatures but aren't as "control" as some of the pyro lists. There's no added advantage to the spells you're slinging the way YP$ gives you. I also think lists with 2 or more LI between main and side want at least 24 creatures.
Some relevant 4-drops:
Chandra, Pyromaster - I think we all know the power of the card, but she isn't necessarily for every build. This list seems set somewhere between spell-based and permanent-based, so she's probably mediocre here, though she can shine with her Phoenix.
Firemane Avenger - Everybody's &
quot;I wish this was good" card. It probably isn't. It's slow with no protection. With LI it's obviously a 4/4 flyer with that great helix battalion ability, but how often are we turning on battalion?
Fanatic of Mogis - A card we all expect in devotion builds but not necessarily in builds splitting space with creatures and spells. This probably depends on your number of Reckoner mainboard.
Tajic, Blade of the Legion - This one's interesting. He doesn't do anything the turn he comes down, but he is Indestructible so he's more likely to stick around. This is similar to Firemane where we need to question how often Battalion will trigger, but it's worth noting that he's a 3/3 Indestructible with LI on the field.
Ogre Battledriver - blech.
Some relevant 4-drops:
Chandra, Pyromaster - I think we all know the power of the card, but she isn't necessarily for every build. This list seems set somewhere between spell-based and permanent-based, so she's probably mediocre here, though she can shine with her Phoenix.
Firemane Avenger - Everybody's &
quot;I wish this was good" card. It probably isn't. It's slow with no protection. With LI it's obviously a 4/4 flyer with that great helix battalion ability, but how often are we turning on battalion?
Fanatic of Mogis - A card we all expect in devotion builds but not necessarily in builds splitting space with creatures and spells. This probably depends on your number of Reckoner mainboard.
Tajic, Blade of the Legion - This one's interesting. He doesn't do anything the turn he comes down, but he is Indestructible so he's more likely to stick around. This is similar to Firemane where we need to question how often Battalion will trigger, but it's worth noting that he's a 3/3 Indestructible with LI on the field.
Ogre Battledriver - blech.
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Dude I agree 100%. I was thinking back to Dos Rakis and was like man....I really miss Falkenwrath at 4.
I was thinking about splashing black. You would lose the scry land but is it really the end of the world?
Then we could have Excava as a 4-drop and run Dreadbore, Doom Blade/Ultimate Price and Thoughtseize. Though mana might not support Thoughtseize if you need it early.
I was thinking about splashing black. You would lose the scry land but is it really the end of the world?
Then we could have Excava as a 4-drop and run Dreadbore, Doom Blade/Ultimate Price and Thoughtseize. Though mana might not support Thoughtseize if you need it early.
Burn baby burn!
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Hmm my testing went alright. I tested Chandra and Assemble but didn't have time to try Elspeth. I ran horribly versus Esper and Mono Black (1-4 and 0-5). Most of my testing when to Mono U where we ended with like a 55% winrate. Watching MDU's videos and reading lazerburns reports, I'm inclined to think last night was a freak accident. I think I mulled all 10 games against Esper/Mono Black and flooded a ton versus U/x. One problem I had with blue was just an inability to close out games. SBD kills them fast but often I just had to hold it back to not die to non-MoW creatures. U/x has more creatures than removal. Most of my wins from balanced games (neither player getting flooded or screwed) came from high value overloaded Mizzium Mortars or an aggressive curve (Ash Zealot/Phoenix + removal). A lot of the times I just had a lot of removal and a dragon or lots of creatures and not enough removal. Just watched a little bit of
GP and Open coverage and White Weenie seems prevalent. I might switch back to Pyrodragons depending on the final results and more testing throughout this week.
GP and Open coverage and White Weenie seems prevalent. I might switch back to Pyrodragons depending on the final results and more testing throughout this week.
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Shame about the results guys, dpaine88 did you get heaps of testing in prior PTQ or did you just play that single FNM? I usually play a number of games with any given deck list on MODO to reduce the variance factor when testing, sometime I find that a particular play style doesn't work me for example: Big Boros, Br Aggro and Rb Aggro.
I know usually when someone else pull tons of results with one list we assume we can do the same, but that is not the case - we all have our own incline sequencing habits and trigger points in using removal or burns - if those habits/play style doesn't suit the deck your testing you won't win.
@vundo try the 18 creatures Pyrodragon list with tons of removal, its quite strong - I like lands so I'll still be pushing towards this direction.
I know usually when someone else pull tons of results with one list we assume we can do the same, but that is not the case - we all have our own incline sequencing habits and trigger points in using removal or burns - if those habits/play style doesn't suit the deck your testing you won't win.
@vundo try the 18 creatures Pyrodragon list with tons of removal, its quite strong - I like lands so I'll still be pushing towards this direction.
Last edited by magicdownunder on Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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re: losing the scry land. The old Dos Rakis lists that ran Reckoner in the board played X number of Godless Shrine. You could sub in Temple of Silence in that spot instead.Dude I agree 100%. I was thinking back to Dos Rakis and was like man....I really miss Falkenwrath at 4.
I was thinking about splashing black. You would lose the scry land but is it really the end of the world?
Then we could have Excava as a 4-drop and run Dreadbore, Doom Blade/Ultimate Price and Thoughtseize. Though mana might not support Thoughtseize if you need it early.
That's a different thread, though.
EDIT: Worked out a brew. Check your PMs, DPaine.
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I saw you were experiencing a little bit of what I was talking about with the no lands, draw dragons / stick on three, draw dragons in spite of 25 lands.Shame about the results guys, dpaine88 did you get heaps of testing in prior PTQ or did you just play that single FNM? I usually play a number of games with any given deck list on MODO to reduce the variance factor when testing, sometime I find that a particular play style doesn't work me for example: Big Boros, Br Aggro and Rb Aggro.
I know usually when we someone else pull tons of results with one list we assume we can do the same, but that is not the case - we all have our own incline sequencing habits and trigger points in using removal or burns - if those habits/play style doesn't suit the deck your testing you won't win.
@vundo try the 18 creatures Pyrodragon list with tons of removal, its quite strong - I like lands so I'll still be
pushing towards this direction.
Maybe 25 land decks with a high curve and no draw are just like that? I don't know.
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Yep, that happen quite a bit (sadly) heck if you watch that last 8-Man I posted I casted ZERO dragons.
In the following 8-man I proceed to cast 2-Dragons (variance for ya), overall I don't mind drawing lands since I prefer to cast multiple spells each turn and if I'm going to lose due to land I prefer to lose to manaflood rather then manasrew.
In the following 8-man I proceed to cast 2-Dragons (variance for ya), overall I don't mind drawing lands since I prefer to cast multiple spells each turn and if I'm going to lose due to land I prefer to lose to manaflood rather then manasrew.
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That's why I pointed the need of mana sink in this deck, especially with 25 lands.
Can you think of something other than Sunhome Guildmage?
BTW I played 5 8 mans today, won 2, 2-1 3rd and lost 2 in g1 (however I think was just unlucky. Vs mono blue I missed him on 1 life for multipple turns, then missplayed with LI blink (need to blink before combat), vs BRW had assemble AND elspeth while on 6 life, he cast rconer, clear the board and attacked with keyrune. Done this while topdecking read the bones ...)
Can you think of something other than Sunhome Guildmage?
BTW I played 5 8 mans today, won 2, 2-1 3rd and lost 2 in g1 (however I think was just unlucky. Vs mono blue I missed him on 1 life for multipple turns, then missplayed with LI blink (need to blink before combat), vs BRW had assemble AND elspeth while on 6 life, he cast rconer, clear the board and attacked with keyrune. Done this while topdecking read the bones ...)
Sig by NerdBoyWonder
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What about the Hammer?That's why I pointed the need of mana sink in this deck, especially with 25 lands.
Can you think of something other than Sunhome Guildmage?
BTW I played 5 8 mans today, won 2, 2-1 3rd and lost 2 in g1 (however I think was just unlucky. Vs mono blue I missed him on 1 life for multipple turns, then missplayed with LI blink (need to blink before combat), vs BRW had assemble AND elspeth while on 6 life, he cast rconer, clear the board and attacked with keyrune. Done this while topdecking read the bones ...)
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We don't need anymore manasinks, SBD, Elspeth and Mortars vaults are more then enough.
Current data (matches undefeated) four 8-Mans (not the biggest pool esp. since I took 1 split):
Bx Devotion (WIN: 4 matches)
Ux Devotion (WIN: 4 matches)
Esper (WIN: 1 match)
RW Devotion (WIN: 1 match)
W Control (WIN: 1 match)
Thoughts:
[url=https://www.
youtube.com/watch?v=Hs7GDcyHgOU&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLBO2Co_8Gb6yuAVJnU1IvIVH71wqDYODu]Standard Elimination G1: Boros Sun Legion vs Bx Devotion (Event 6432208)[/url]
Standard Elimination G2: Boros Sun Legion vs RW Devotion (Event 6432208)
Standard Elimination G3: Boros Sun Legion vs Ux Devotion (Event 6432208)
I'll try swapping RoR for the 3rd LB tomorrow.
EDIT: I was corrected the first three are not manasinks
Current data (matches undefeated) four 8-Mans (not the biggest pool esp. since I took 1 split):
Bx Devotion (WIN: 4 matches)
Ux Devotion (WIN: 4 matches)
Esper (WIN: 1 match)
RW Devotion (WIN: 1 match)
W Control (WIN: 1 match)
Thoughts:
- I'm not sure if I like Elspeth, every time I cast her she ends up dying right after (I've yet to see her survive for two turns).
- I'm thinking about replacing the RoR for 3rd Last Breath like how Lazerburn suggested earlier, I find that I lose more rounds to thassa then to MoW so with LB I can at least deal with walls.
Last Time
Here is the next set running the same list (I have 2 more after this one):[url=https://www.
youtube.com/watch?v=Hs7GDcyHgOU&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLBO2Co_8Gb6yuAVJnU1IvIVH71wqDYODu]Standard Elimination G1: Boros Sun Legion vs Bx Devotion (Event 6432208)[/url]
Standard Elimination G2: Boros Sun Legion vs RW Devotion (Event 6432208)
Standard Elimination G3: Boros Sun Legion vs Ux Devotion (Event 6432208)
I'll try swapping RoR for the 3rd LB tomorrow.
EDIT: I was corrected the first three are not manasinks
Last edited by magicdownunder on Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I really liked Chandra because she provided a different angle of a threat. In this deck though, her falter isn't as impressive when our phoenixes and dragons get in regardless. Similarly, Elspeth provides that same planeswalker angle and is just a bit better at killing people and closing out games. The mana difference is pretty big but its probably worth it for her raw power. Chandra usually gets a few more activations in than Elspeth but I think 3~6 soldiers or a timely fatty remover outweighs 2~3 goblin shortcutters.
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First things first, WELCOME BACK to Big Boros!Top 8'd a GPT with MDU's deck today. More than a bit pissed with how it ended up. Report later on tonight.
On Elspeth: I think she is win more, but she is decent. I think maybe Elspeth and Legion's Initiative are a bit too cute and should be replaced.
Could you update the primer with the list and the report once you type it up .
Also I think LI has proven itself, its just like Shaman except its gives all your cards protection to Last breath and can dodge sweepers.
Elspeth on the other hand.... man she isn't doing what I want her to do....
I was thinking about replacing her for Assemble the Legions or Chandra but I feel weird running only 1 Chandra... thoughts? (gah I forked out $10 for her I'm going run her for a few more games till I'm absolutely sure she is horrible)
EDIT: Maybe LI really is too cute... back to 2x Chandra plan? (vundo, I know you tested the 2x Chandra list - you said the Bx and Esper MU was bad, but in theory 2x Chandra should of made those MU better then the LI + Elsepth version - how did they beat you so much?)
Last edited by magicdownunder on Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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The more PR I get the more extra cash I get so I should be thanking you for doing all that .Will do. Thank you very much for the list by the way. If it's cool with you, I'm just going to play your deck lists for the foreseeable future. In exchange, I'll try to write testing notes and like / comment your videos. Is it cool with you if I add some (or all?) of your videos to the primer too?
I think it will much too much hassle to add all the videos so just do some (or all if ya bothered), what are your thoughts on that Elspeth problem we have? (I for one will keep trying, I only played four 8-Mans with her so far so the pool isn't deep enough, but I'm not
impressed so far)
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I like this idea,What about the Hammer?That's why I pointed the need of mana sink in this deck, especially with 25 lands.
Can you think of something other than Sunhome Guildmage?
BTW I played 5 8 mans today, won 2, 2-1 3rd and lost 2 in g1 (however I think was just unlucky. Vs mono blue I missed him on 1 life for multipple turns, then missplayed with LI blink (need to blink before combat), vs BRW had assemble AND elspeth while on 6 life, he cast rconer, clear the board and attacked with keyrune. Done this while topdecking read the bones ...)
going to try it
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Did not get in "heaps" of testing. I guess I felt pretty comfortable since I top16'd a 5k with Adrian's original list in October and it isn't THAT different from these lists. Just 3-4 more creatures.Shame about the results guys, dpaine88 did you get heaps of testing in prior PTQ or did you just play that single FNM? I usually play a number of games with any given deck list on MODO to reduce the variance factor when testing, sometime I find that a particular play style doesn't work me for example: Big Boros, Br Aggro and Rb Aggro.
I know usually when someone else pull tons of results with one list we assume we can do the same, but that is not the case - we all have our own incline sequencing habits and trigger points in using removal or burns - if those habits/play style doesn't suit the deck your testing you won't win.
@vundo try the 18 creatures Pyrodragon list with tons of removal, its quite strong - I like lands so I'll still be pushing
towards this direction.
I wish I had more practice vs Mono Blue as I played a pretty well known dude Ross Merriam round 2 and he got me good. I just didn't have any threats at all. Tons of removal but his Thassa scry got him what he needed while I just flooded out without seeing a single creature.
Then played this weird Bant list and once again I just didn't have enough threats to get through until he got his Rev. Went like Plant into Voice, Into Smiter into Wurm into Rev both games I lost.
It kills me to say this but maybe I am not on the skill level JUST YET for this deck. I really thrive with more creatures and post Board this deck is very threat-light.
Maybe I am wrong but I always feel like I get so much more value with removal when I have a threat out.
In lots of the games I had answers but I would just answer their threat and not have any threats to take advantage of an open board.
Its possibly something more aggresive would be the right call for me personally, but I just felt like since I did so good with the very similar deck, but maybe those extra threats made the difference.
I will also say prop to MDU for making your plays that seem correct so fuckin fast and rarely mess up. I see now why you win so much. You are very good.
Burn baby burn!
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So this is where I'm at - it's untested, RL has been most needy of my time this weekend Cliffes Notes for the lazy ones - I brought back Chandra
Latest list
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I've actually got the 2nd Assemble in there over the FotF at the moment. Trying a 2nd LI over the 3rd Charm too. I'm favouring the second LI and Assemble cos while I like Wear/Tear and Glare I don't like singletons. I'm actually pretty happy against the big 3 (Esper, Ux, Bx) now
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I'm starting with this Pedros - 4 Chains - 2 Mizz - 2 Reckoner + 3 Crack + 2 Charm + 2 Assemble + 1 LI - thoughts?
EDIT Glare could be very strong here too
EDIT Glare could be very strong here too
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I think it's significantly harder thar Esper. Esper has to draw perfectly, or you are taking chunks out of their life total until you can grind them out.Just wanted to point out that UW is easier then Esper for the 4x Dragon variant.
Uw actually plays spells.
Azorious Charm fucks up your tempo and denies you land draws, so you won't hit five lands on time.
Supreme Verdict makes sure your dragon (when he arrives late to the party) will attack alone.
Celestial Flare. Rage Tears.
Also, Elspeth -3.
The are playing azorious charms instead of cipt lands. I hate hate hate that card / deck.
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@Johnny_Spike
I've been having a better time against UW then Esper, your cards require more unique answers (they need to fill conditions) rather then Esper all-in-one doom blades or HDF.
Either way, if I recall your previous post you'll agree that control is still in our favor - I'm still more concern about Bx then control.
I've been having a better time against UW then Esper, your cards require more unique answers (they need to fill conditions) rather then Esper all-in-one doom blades or HDF.
Either way, if I recall your previous post you'll agree that control is still in our favor - I'm still more concern about Bx then control.
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Depends on opponents / draws. More on this later.@Johnny_Spike
I've been having a better time against UW then Esper, your cards require more unique answers (they need to fill conditions) rather then Esper all-in-one doom blades or HDF.
Either way, if I recall your previous post you'll agree that control is still in our favor - I'm still more concern about Bx then control.
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It is a VERY corner-case situation. I've only done it a few times, and only in situations where almost any non-land top-deck OTHER than the one they Azo Charm there or the Shock used to kill the Cackler/Satyr would win me the game.I've considered that, but I think it's a poor use of resources.I always Jet/Strike my Phoenix's/Zealots (depends on the situation actually), and Cacklers when they charm my shit. Assuming I have at least another threat card in hand or on the field.
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GPT Shizuoka Report 12/ 8/ 2013
Last GPT before GP: Shizuoka. I finished 8th, which is my second consecutive GPT top 8 this season. I'm feeling relatively confident going into the GP on the 21st. Unfortunately I'll only have one BYE, but such is life. My goal for this GP is to have a better record than my last two (5-4) and I'd be totally stoked if I could make Day 2.
Here's what I played yesterday:
[deck]MagicDownUnder's Big Boros
Lands 25
11 Mountains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
Creatures 20
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Boros Reckoner
4 Stormbreath Dragon
Spells 9
3 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Mizzium Mortars
Enchantments 5
4 Chained to the Rocks
1 Legion's Initiative
Planeswalker 1
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Sideboard 15
2 Boros
Reckoner
2 Last Breath
1 Rod of Ruin
3 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]
There were 44 players for the day. Three of my friends attended too, including forum member solemn10.
Round 1: VS UWR Control (guy from my LGS, I'm about 60% against him)
Round 2: VS MUD
Round 3: VS Jund
:
2-1-0Round 4: VS RW Devotion (deck check)
3-1-0
Round 5: VS All Foil Esper
4-1-0
Round 6: VS B/R Aggro (forum member Solemn10)
Quarter Finals: VS Esper (eventual winner)
4-2-1
Then,
what happened next makes me monstrous.
Rant
Thoughts on the Deck:I think this deck is softer to control than we thought it would be. I think one of the resons is that we've lost cards like Chandra, Pyromaster and [
card]Firedrinker Satyr[/card]. I cast [card]Legion's Initiative[/card] twice, and it was useless. Getting in for a couple extra damage is nice, but I think we're diluting the deck too much. Elspeth was good when I cast her (once all day), but I think I could have won without her. Other games she rotted in my hand. I do like the additional white sources she forces us to play though.
Moving forward:
We need Chandra, Pyromaster. She is our only means of card advantage.
Boros Reckoner is not good in the MD. He is only good vs Hexproof Plant decks and small aggro.
[card]Legion's Initiative[/card] / [card]Elspeth, Sun's Champion[/card] are cute / win more respectively.
Recommended Updates:
[deck] Lands 25
11 Mountains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
nCreatures 20
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon
Spells 9
4 Lightning Strike
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Magma Jet
Enchantments 4
4 Chained to the Rocks
Planeswalker 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Sideboard 15
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Last Breath
4 Boros Charm
2 Assemble the Legion
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion[/deck]
Feedback welcome and appreciated as always. Thanks for reading.
- Lightning_Dolt
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(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO) - Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:51 am
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- magicdownunder
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(View: POSTS_VIEWTOPIC /POSTS_VIEWTOPIC_INTO) - Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:55 pm
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Very good post Johnny_Spike, your suggested deck-list is solid except you HAVE to play 4x Magma Jet in a 25 land deck (we can make our own luck with MJ) I would cut one Firedrinker Satyr for it because he is a huge liability at times.
I'm a bit iffy on 0x SkullCrack with Black still in the meta game, but I do understand the love for non-condition burn spells.
In regards to the Packs, can you trade them in to the LGS for store credit? In MODO I think of each pack as $3.37.
(on other new, I won another 8-Man which qualified me for MOCS1 (2014) Prelim)
EDIT: No LI for anti-Last Breath Tech?
I'm a bit iffy on 0x SkullCrack with Black still in the meta game, but I do understand the love for non-condition burn spells.
In regards to the Packs, can you trade them in to the LGS for store credit? In MODO I think of each pack as $3.37.
(on other new, I won another 8-Man which qualified me for MOCS1 (2014) Prelim)
EDIT: No LI for anti-Last Breath Tech?
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