Primer: R/w/x Aggro

[magicdownunder]

Maybe we can cut both Assemble the Legion and add the rest of the Boros Charms. Then we can side into Adrian Sullivan's 'sledgehammer' mainboard against control

That is fine for Control, but by cutting Assemble take away our main edge against Bx Devotion.

How about this:

[deck=Sun's Champion Aggro]Lands 25
11 Mountains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate

Creatures 20
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Boros Reckoner
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 10
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Mizzium Mortars

Enchantments 4
4 Chained to the Rocks

Planeswalker 1
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

Sideboard 15
2 Boros Reckoner
2 Last Breath
1 Legion's Initiative
n1 Rod of Ruin
3 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

EDIT: LP beat me to the punch but yes LP is correct like usual, you need to broaden your vision when building SB.

[LP, of the Fires]

I'm willing to cut the rod of ruin in the board.

[magicdownunder]

I'm willing to cut the rod of ruin in the board.

Based on the number of games I had against Ux, I'll argue that Rod is a very strong tool in a deck which has the mana to support it (aka 25 land.decks) sometimes we durdle our draw while we're in control mode - when that happens and we don't finish them they end up resolving one too many MoW (which they find through jace, Scry or trident).

[vundo]

I was a huge fan of 1 Rod / 2 Last Breath package but Rod only hits Mono U and even in that, it only effectively hits MoW. MoW is a problem but not nearly as much of a problem it was with the Pyro lists. I agree with LP that we can cut the Rod possibly for more B/x hate. I'm also not opposed to adding the 3rd Reckoner. I think I really want to see him against R/x devotion, aggro decks, and G/x decks. Maybe we just have so much removal that we don't really need the Reckoner wall/threat

[vundo]

Actually it skipped my mind. U/x has way more card advantage over us (even if they are likely to side out Bidents and Thassas). And U/x is enough of a force in standard and for our deck that 1 dedicated sb slot is worth it.

[LaZerBurn]

Great posts everyone I'm going to try dropping an Assemble for another LI. I'll report back later

[LP, of the Fires]

legions initiative protects reckoner from domestication

[LP, of the Fires]

nevermind, I can't maths You can still blink the guys, but when they control it, reckoner shrinks.

[magicdownunder]

The Time Before Last Time

---

[deck=MDU's Boros Legion]Lands 25
12 Mountains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
1 Boros Guildgate

Creatures 20
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 10
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Mizzium Mortars

Enchantments 5
4 Chained to the Rocks
1 Assemble the Legion

Sideboard 15
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Last Breath
1 Legion's Initiative
1 Rod of Ruin
2 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

Here are some videos, show casing the deck against Ux and Bx (SB Plans included, really thinking about running a 2nd Legion's Initiative its really strong against Gx Devotion):

Boros Legion Experiment (2-Man) + Commentary: G1 vs Ux Devotion
[url=http://youtu.
be/Uu78VE1BgjE]Boros Legion Experiment (2-Man) + Commentary: G2 vs Bx Devotion[/url]
Boros Legion Experiment (2-Man) + Commentary: G3 vs Ux Devotion

I also finish two other 8-Man's which I'll post in the following two days (which is perfect since I won't have time to play in the next few days).

I've been thinking about MD'ing Boros Reckoner, but I have trouble justifying them when the Bx MU can be rather challenging for this variant (still in our favor but challenging).

Last Time

---

Here is the first set of 8-Mans as promised (I think I covered all the main archetypes now, so you can review and set-up your own SBP (sideboard plan) mixing your ideas with mine):

Standard Elimination G1: Boros Legion vs Gr Devotion (Event 6416524)
Standard Elimination G2: Boros Legion vs Gu Devotion (Event 6416524)
Standard Elimination G3: Split

EDIT: I'm missing the control MU, though I know from Lazer's last report he hasn't lost any full matches with them yet

here is the last set of 8-Man I collected before RL consumed me (I'll try and squeeze in 1 or 2 game tomorrow):

Standard Elimination G1: Boros Legion vs Bx Devotion (Event 6416118)
Standard Elimination G2: Boros Legion vs GW Aggro (Event 6416118)
Standard Elimination G3: Split

[Pedros]

Ok I will also get on this wagon As noone is working on RB pyro lists so I will just move here.

I really like the fact everyone is saying good things about LI. However I also noticed, you want it against every deck MDU except small agro. Doesnt that mean it is good in every matchup?

I think It is extremely good especially in game 1, where all of our 1 drops wouldnt be stone-cold dead vs walls and specters from sth like mono U. Maybe move sth to sb?

Disscuss.

Also what I noticed playing Rb, I really liked some creatures to spent mana with. Guildmage or God anyone? We have a lot of mana to spend, so I like it as a 1 off.

[vundo]

I think the gatecrash boros guildmage is too slow. Like even slower than assemble. maybe the 2/2 body can make up the different but im not too sure

[Pedros]

I know it is very slow, however I like having some kind of mana sink. Even as a 1 off that you would be happy to draw later when you have shitload of mana on board.

[PirateKingAtomsk]

Chandra might be the best planeswalker but as mdu has shown in his matchups shes not necessary, and I believe that running her will cause you to divert atleast a little attention from killing your opponent to keeping her alive to make the most of her( in this case flipping cards is the most powerful of her abilities). You could perhaps run her in the sb for the monoB and green monsters but she otherwise just makes you micro manage your rescources that could be spent elsewhere.

[LaZerBurn]

Welcome aboard Pedros

I'm interested in Mding at least one LI, I'm going to test with 2 in place of Chandra for a few games and see how it does

[Purp]

Have we considered Toil as maybe a 2 of for the control matchup?

[Pedros]

Maybe we can cut both Assemble the Legion and add the rest of the Boros Charms. Then we can side into Adrian Sullivan's 'sledgehammer' mainboard against control

That is fine for Control, but by cutting Assemble take away our main edge against Bx Devotion.

How about this:

[deck=Sun's Champion Aggro]Lands 25
11 Mountains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate

Creatures 20
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Boros Reckoner
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 10
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2
Mizzium Mortars

Enchantments 4
4 Chained to the Rocks

Planeswalker 1
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

Sideboard 15
2 Boros Reckoner
2 Last Breath
1 Legion's Initiative
1 Rod of Ruin
3 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

EDIT: LP beat me to the punch but yes LP is correct like usual, you need to broaden your vision when building SB.

Tested exatcly same 75 on modo today to 7-1 finish (won 8 man and 4 2 mans)

2-0 WW Red
0-2 Gr devotion, however think it was a fluke as in both games he was down to no cards with elspeth at 7 loyalty to topdeck nylea...
2-0 Rw devotion
2-0 Rg devotion
2-0 Ub Devotion
2-1 U Devotion
2-1 GW Ramp -interesting deck, elves, 8 2mana ramp, smiter, polukranos, colosus, garuk + elspeth, angel of serenity with courages in sb
2-0 RWb burn

Was really happy with deck, LI was very good vs everything. Even elspeth tokens get a lot of value when they are 1/2, not 1/1

So won 9 packs (for 3.17 tix) with invest of 16 tixes.

[dpaine88]

Runnin that list at FNM tonight, good job Pedros(again)

[LP, of the Fires]

I'll likely run something like this at FNM tonight as well. Now if I could fit LI into the maindeck...

Maybe LI is better then Elspeth main? Game 1's shouldn't last as long as postboard games and I THINK that pushes LI to being more impactful in the main, since it's much more castable.

[magicdownunder]

@All - you are correct after rereading my SPB (again) I did notice I pretty much bring in LI vs Everything (remember guys I only just wrote it, I haven't tested it)

Elspeth, Sun's Champion is your only I-Win card vs Bx Devotion - you can't cut her, I suggest moving one mortars to the boards and bring LI in its place.

Reasoning:
I feel that Boros Reckoner and Elspeth, Sun's Champion have a similar role to mortars anyways. Thoughts?

EDIT: guys please include explanations with your suggestion, we don't want to devolve the development into a preference war.

[LaZerBurn]

I've been testing with 2 LI in the deck and have tweaked the SB to take this into account. Tweaked List and plan is below

SBP

---

[deck=MDU's Boros Legion, tweaked by LaZer]Lands 25
12 Mountains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
1 Boros Guildgate

Creatures 19
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Boros Reckoner
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 10
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Mizzium Mortars

Enchantments 4
4 Chained to the Rocks
2 Legion's Initiative

Sideboard 15
2 Boros Reckoner
2 Last Breath
1 Rod of Ruin
3 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack
2 Assemble the Legion
2
Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

Small Aggro

In
2 Boros Reckoner
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Last Breath

Out
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler

It might be correct to take out the LI and keep 2 Cacklers in as 1cc blockers as we don't have Shock. I know you've used this strategy before MDU, thoughts anyone? Haven't tried LB in this match up yet.
Redx

In
2 Boros Reckoner
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Boros Charm

Out
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler

Greenx

In
2 Boros Reckoner
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Boros Charm

Out
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler

Bluex

In
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Boros Charm
2 Last Breath
1 Rod of Ruin

Out
2 Firedrinker Satyr
2 Boros Reckoner
4 Rakdos Cackler

Blackx

In
3 Skullcrack
3 Boros Charm
2 Assemble the Legion

Out
2 Boros Reckoner
4 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Magma Jet
1 Boros Guildgate

Esper

In
3 Skullcrack
3 Boros Charm

Out
2 Boros Reckoner
4 Chained to the Rocks

UW Control

In
3 Skullcrack
3 Boros Charm
2
Assemble the Legion

Out
2 Boros Reckoner
4 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars

I've not gotten in many more games, RL intruded, but the testing with LI is going well as I've drawn it enough to get a feel for how it works out. I REALLY like it - your pet card is a hit Pedros If you hit one early the +1 is incredible (a T2 LI puts them on a 6 turn clock instead of a 9 turn one with a 1 drop in play) In game the effect works kinda like Chandra's +1 as the extra damage from creatures adds up and no one wants to block 3 power men with their Caryatid All our creatures can trade up, a 4/4 Reckoner is incredibly powerful and a 3/2 Ashley is formidable The blink effect is also strong and adds another line of play to to
the deck. I think 2 is the right number to run if you want to play it.

I still need to get Assemble in play (especially against MonoB) to assess how good it is.

For the record I beat Naya Control 2-1, BG GY thing 2-0 (drew LI and it won me the game, early beats and blink effect ), GR Ramp 2-0 (drew LI and it won me the game again as a 4/4 Reckoner walled him while my Phoenix nipped in), Mono B 2-0 (he took the LI with his Thoughtseize over Chains and a Mortars but also kept terrible hands so this may mean nothing). I lost 2-1 to G Devo (Nykthos utterly wrecked me in both the games I lost, I just couldn't keep up and even 2 4/4 Reckoners couldn't save me)

I have to say that I really like this deck, it's my fave of the season The core 51 cards of the deck seem solid with the last 9 flexible to allow for personal preference and local meta games - eg running Elspth and/or Chandra over LI,
running 4 Satyrs, running the 4th Zealot etc and I think the SB allows for flexibility too - if you opt for LI you may not need 3 Boros Charm for example. I'm still running it 'cos I really like to burn people out

Thoughts and feedback welcome, I'm really enjoying this deck development and discussion

[LP, of the Fires]

@All - you are correct after rereading my SPB (again) I did notice I pretty much bring in LI vs Everything (remember guys I only just wrote it, I haven't tested it)

Elspeth, Sun's Champion is your only I-Win card vs Bx Devotion - you can't cut her, I suggest moving one mortars to the boards and bring LI in its place.

Reasoning:
I feel that Boros Reckoner and Elspeth, Sun's Champion have a similar role to mortars anyways. Thoughts?

EDIT: guys please include explanations with your suggestion, we don't want to devolve the development into a preference war.

I totes agree on the reckoner/Elspeth/mortars thing. In another post, I believe I defended Reckoner as a sort of proactive/redundant mortars and Elspeth is just the biggest of
game in that regards. I still want 2 mortars main to maximize on killing nightveil spectors while being able to conserve chains so I'm iffy on making that cut.

[Pedros]

I found Elspeth is really good as a curve top end, as it act as a removal and is good vs agro. However Aurelia might be a little bit better if we want to be more agressive. With LI in play we might even attack 3 times with our team.

Elspeth is similar to assemble, one is more vulnerable however the other is somehow slow.

[magicdownunder]

That was a very good post Lazerburn:
vs Small Aggro using Cackler as a 1/1 blocker is only effective against Br and Boss Aggro (its kinda ok vs Wr but I wouldn't recommend it).
vs UW your not worried about paladins or Angels? 2 Chains too be safe seems ok to me.

vs Bx Devotion (the 2nd most played deck) is the only MU really worry about, your plan vs them is solid and with 3 MJ digging should be simple enough.

Gah, its not that Bx Devotion is a weak or even MU (its Def. in our favor) maybe I'm over thinking it...

I totes agree on the reckoner/Elspeth/mortars thing. In another post, I believe I defended Reckoner as a sort of proactive/redundant mortars and Elspeth is just the biggest of game in that regards. I still want 2 mortars main to maximize
on killing nightveil spectors while being able to conserve chains so I'm iffy on making that cut.

I share your concerns, maybe cut 1x Ash or Magma Jet ( ).

[LaZerBurn]

I'm not convinced we need Elspeth yet but if she is so important why are we only looking at running 1? Wouldn't 2 be a better number? How about drop 1 Ash from the list above and put in a MD LI. Then run the second LI in the board and replace the Assemble with Elspeth so you can run 2 when you need her?

[Pedros]

@MDU

Ash Zealots are important in this build, LI just pushes them over the top. Dont like cutting them.

We need to disscuss following:

Elspeth over Assemble (both mb and sb and it relevance in different matchups). Both have pros and conss.

Another flying finisher. Helix Angel and Aurelia seems nice with LI, as one is protected from strike while the other from mortars. BTW helix angel kills specter with batalion.

[LaZerBurn]

That was a very good post Lazerburn:
vs Small Aggro using Cackler as a 1/1 blocker is only effective against Br and Boss Aggro (its kinda ok vs Wr but I wouldn't recommend it).
vs UW your not worried about paladins or Angels? 2 Chains too be safe seems ok to me.

vs Bx Devotion (the 2nd most played deck) is the only MU really worry about, your plan vs them is solid and with 3 MJ digging should be simple enough.

Gah, its not that Bx Devotion is a weak or even MU (its Def. in our favor) maybe I'm over thinking it...

I totes agree on the reckoner/Elspeth/mortars thing. In
another post, I believe I defended Reckoner as a sort of proactive/redundant mortars and Elspeth is just the biggest of game in that regards. I still want 2 mortars main to maximize on killing nightveil spectors while being able to conserve chains so I'm iffy on making that cut.

I share your concerns, maybe cut 1x Ash or Magma Jet ( ).

I was thinking BR (damn Jester!)and Boss Sligh, I should have specified

2 Chains Vs UW is a good call, not sure what I was thinking there

I think you may be over thinking the Bx issue, I have every confidence in your ability to crush them

I just posted on how I'd get 2 LI and 2 Elspeth into the 75 I'll have to go get Elspeth if we agree that though, are we sure Assemble isn't better?

I need to sleep now, back in the am to see what you all thought while I was snoozing

[magicdownunder]

@MDU

Ash Zealots are important in this build, LI just pushes them over the top. Dont like cutting them.

We need to disscuss following:

Elspeth over Assemble (both mb and sb and it relevance in different matchups). Both have pros and conss.

Another flying finisher. Helix Angel and Aurelia seems nice with LI, as one is protected from strike while the other from mortars. BTW helix angel kills specter with batalion.

Aurelia is really really bad, the only time when she is good is vs Gx - she is just a bad FoM (you need a board for her to be strong).
The Helix Angel again is only good vs Gx, these card are mostly liability vs Ux Devotion (No haste for 4cc no way).

Why 1/1 Split between Elspeth and Assemble? The 6cc is a real issue, both
fill similar roles (you'll be mainly shooting out tokens with Elspeth) except Elspeth can be a sweeper when she needs to be.

I wouldn't play 2 6cc spells in a 25 land deck, so I'll settle with the 2nd Assemble as Elspeth lite.

[Pedros]

I think I need to get some sleep. Not Elspeth over Assemble in mb or sb, but to decide which is better vs the field.

[LP, of the Fires]

I prefer 1 of each. They do similar things, but mana cost is an issue and they can function in different matchups. Like, Elspeth is really good vs. G/x decks since she can stonewall guys and/or wrath all their fat. Assemble beats B/x devotion period. Both get Dsphered, vs. UWx control, etc.

Directly comparing them, Assemble has more upside, Elspeth is much better when you're behind. Agree with Purp on Ashley, agree with MDU on Aurelia. I'd only play Aurelia in decks that can ramp her or have flash threats(old UWR). I could also see her something like a weird dragon control deck. We are none of those decks though, so it's moot.

[magicdownunder]

I prefer 1 of each. They do similar things, but mana cost is an issue and they can function in different matchups. Like, Elspeth is really good vs. G/x decks since she can stonewall guys and/or wrath all their fat. Assemble beats B/x devotion period. Both get Dsphered, vs. UWx control, etc.

Directly comparing them, Assemble has more upside, Elspeth is much better when you're behind. Agree with Purp on Ashley, agree with MDU on Aurelia. I'd only play Aurelia in decks that can ramp her or have flash threats(old UWR). I could also see her something like a weird dragon control deck. We are none of those decks though, so it's moot.

How is this:

[deck]Boros Sun Aggro[/deck]

Glare of Heresy is my anti-Chain, Boros Reckoner, Elspeth and Dsphere Tech.

[LP, of the Fires]

Glares probably way better then wear/tear, yeah. Not sure. Destroying whip/connections probably isn't important since blacks a good matchup and glare killing Elspeth makes it always live(I've lost with wear/tear being the last card in my hand).

[Lightning_Dolt]

Wear // Tear is good vs Mono U too though.

I for one, do not like elspeth at all. Sweeping fat what we play fat seems counter productive. Mana cost and double W is also prohibitive. Also much worse with legion's initiative.

Also not sure it's correct to cut chandra at all. 15 damage for four mana happens often enough for me to want her. I don't know guys...

[magicdownunder]

I like Chandra as well, but we're the minority here .

It doesn't really matter right now since we're just in the development stage, crunching numbers and testing unorthodox cards.

In-regards to Elspeth, you only sweep when you want/NEED to sweep - she is mainly a token producer.

[Keftenk]

Loving this list MDU...
Mono B just folds to it, amazing...

[Lightning_Dolt]

Loving this list MDU...
Mono B just folds to it, amazing...

Really? It looks really soft to mono black to me.

[magicdownunder]

Really? It looks really soft to mono black to me.

He is most likely referring to the Elsepth version, its softer then the pyrovariant obv. but its still favorable.

Anyhow, had time to run through one quick 8-Man:

[deck=MDU's Boros Sun Legions]Lands 25
11 Mountains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate

Creatures 19
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Boros Reckoner
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 10
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Mizzium Mortars

Enchantments 5
4 Chained to the Rocks
1 Legion's Initiative

Planeswalker 1
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

Sideboard 15
2 Boros Reckoner
2 Last Breath
1 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Rod of Ruin
3 Boros
Charm
3 Skullcrack
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]
Standard Elimination G1: Boros Sun Legion vs Bx Devotion (Event 6430815)
Standard Elimination G2: Boros Sun Legion vs Esper (Event 6430815)
Standard Elimination G3: Boros Sun Legion vs Bx Devotion (Event 6430815

I like Elpeth, she has been good for me.

P.S. I decided to run four 4x MJ over 4x Ash because MJ are better vs Ux which is more important.

[Keftenk]

Yea, sorry! It was the Elspeth version!
My opponent even dropped 3 Hero's Downfall on various targets and I still smoked him.

I question my SB options though. In PyroDragons I'd SB out the SBD's (was this correct?) but in this, I wouldn't (is that even correct?).

Also to mention, in G2 Legion's Iniatiave did work.It only made 2 of my creatures do 2 more damage, but it was enough...

[Lightning_Dolt]

I can't wrap my head around playing Chandra's Phoenix without Chandra. Isn't it not that good without Chandra to recur it?

Dammit MDU, your videos make me want to play this deck, but I'm pretty sure I have no money for Elspeth...

[magicdownunder]

I can't wrap my head around playing Chandra's Phoenix without Chandra. Isn't it not that good without Chandra to recur it?

Dammit MDU, your videos make me want to play this deck, but I'm pretty sure I have no money for Elspeth...

she is less then $10 online (cheaper then dragons) I got another 8-Man down, beating Bx (2-0), RW Devo (2-0) and Ux (2-1) I'll post it tomorrow.

[LaZerBurn]

@MDU - agree on 4 Jets

@Johnny_Spike - Phoenix is still great, even without Chandra - 8 MD recursors - is this a real word? - and 6 in the board is working fine You may be able to get away with a 2nd Assemble over Elspeth too.

I'm going to keep the 2nd LI in the board over FotF for now and try 2 Assemble because I am too tight to buy Epseth