[Primer] PyroRed

[magicdownunder]

I played RB for a few games, the removal package I used was 1 Doom Blade, 1 Dreadbore and 1 Ultimate Price MD. I still prefer RW mainly because of the scry land and the existence of BGx decks.

[RaidaTheBlade]

This is the list I'm kinda staring at atm.

[deck]
Creatures 19
4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Stormbreath Dragon

Thighs 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Removal 16
4 Lightning Strike
3 Magma Jet
3 Shock
2 Flames of the Firebrand
4 Chained to the Rocks

Land 23
12 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault

Sideboard 15
2 Firedrinker Satyr
2 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Mizzium Mortars
2 Boros Charm
2 Last breath
3 Skullcrack
[/deck]
Think that keeping 4 chained helps more then keeping 4 jet… But not 100% sure.

[magicdownunder]

Never make a tweak to a list if your not sure esp. if you net deck the original from someone else (they usually have reason for the choices they make).

When your making tweaks it is vital that you find justification in your choices, for example your local meta lacks weenies decks so you don't need shock effects thus cut a shock.

Anyways, isn't your meta chock full of Dega, Naya and GW? you should be running Mortars over anti weenies spells, though MD Boros Reckoner is solid vs Gx decks.

[vundo]

Ok I just played 15 game 1's against mono U with a friend and I got some very promising results.
Here is my new list that I tested

[deck=$@#$ mono U]
LAND 23
12 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

CREATURES 18
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Stormbreath Dragon

SPELLS 13
3 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma jet
2 Flames of the Firebrand

STUFF 6
4 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

SIDEBOARD
1 Rod of Ruin
2 Last Breath
2 Fanatic of Mogis
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack [/deck]

I went 12W-3L in testing (I only tested pre-sideboard). 2 of my losses were from the 1-of Nykthos shenanigans and 1 loss was randomly dying to a 3/4 Cloudfin Raptor while I durdled with 3 Reckoners on the ground.
I haven't tested it yet but my plan is to side out 4 Cacklers, 4 YP$ and 4 Reckoners in G2 and bring in 1 rod, 2
last breath, 2 fanatic, 2 mizzium mortars, 1 skullcrack, and 4 boros charms. I'm not sure how well it'll work but that's what testing is for.

I'm liking the idea of Reckoner MB more and more because its very strong against G/r devotion and other R/x decks. Reckoners obviously aren't great against B/x and U/x Control but overloading on charms and skullcracks might make up for the loss of satyr. I will continue testing and make necessary tweaks but as of now, I'm really liking this mainboard in a blue filled meta.

[magicdownunder]

Looks darn solid! I also love the SB

I think winning G1 vs Ux is really important, my only complaint is that you'll be almost giving away G1 to UW and Esper control (Bx should still be decent).

[vundo]

yeah I'll have to see how popular Esper is this weekend. It's not ideal, but I'd be satisfied with a very strong G2/G3 against U/x Control but I'm not sure if my current SB can do that. I don't even know if I can comfortably side in 4 Skullcracks + 4 Charms. Using mortars / chained postboard for blood baron / paladin seems extremely awkward but maybe I can just kill with skullcracks before blood baron gains any life.

[zemanjaski]

RE: black splash

Dreadbore is the most maindeckable terror, not close. Probably ultimate price after that. Doom Blade I feel is more of a sideboard card while MBC is a major deck.

Other things I'm interested in:
- Rix Maadi Guildmage vs Mono Blue
- Exava vs. anything
- Erobos in the SB

[zemanjaski]

I like that I can include Exava instead of Stormbreath; similar effect for a mana less is huge.

[vundo]

I think MattT was the one that suggested Underworld Cerberus. I personally like that as the big finisher more than Exava.

I could be wrong but I feel like the guildmage is just too slow. In the really grindy games against mono U, bident + thassa outclass guildmage so much but most U players side those 2 cards out so the grind plan with phoenix+tymaret+guildmage might be good.

[Pedros]

Guildmage is quite good because it makes combat much harder for opponent, and allows to make blocking bad.

If not for master would play dreadbore all the time.

Wait till my report to think if reckoner mb is good option. For me sdb it out vs mono u is outragous.

I wont be playing it before new set as new Set might flip the format upsitedown.

Also i missed some artifact/enchantment removal from sb.

[Keftenk]

The dog is seriously woof, but I've had it screw me over some times. If you happen to say get Underworld Cerebus out and have slaughtered their creatures, but you yourself only have 2 or 3 in your gy. All it takes is a simple Heroe's Downfall or Dreadbore and they get all their crap back while you only get your small force. I've actually lost this way. It's a monster though, but I'd be pretty scared using it against Mono B, heh.

[Purp]

Pedros can you post your list?

I would only play Cerberus in a deck that had hammer in it.

[Valdarith]

I playtested my list tonight in the practice room to get used to the playstyle. Deck is hard to play. Got nutdrawn on a lot by back-to-back-to-back Stormbreath Dragons on turns three, four, and five. I guess Jund is a thing. Also saw a lot of Sylvan Caryatid. If those become more prevalent we're going to have to find an answer to it. I know not to take much stock from the practice room though. I like this deck's chances against the devotion decks. If piloted properly it seems the matchups are favorable.

One particular deck I played had a lot of removal into a big wincon like Assemble the
Legion. It made me strongly consider taking out my creatures just to counter the strategy as I talked about before. I think this is a legitimate thing to do that can catch a lot of people off guard.

Also, Young Pyromancer has been less amazing than I expected, but still good. I kind of want something like I had in my RB deck where all but my one drops had haste, making them all pseudo burn spells. Unfortunately white doesn't have nearly as much to offer as black does. Only Viashino Firstblade and Skyknight Legionnaire fit the bill. Spark Trooper hits hard but doesn't stick around. Then again, maybe the deck could top out with him? This has my gears turning...

Malthrin on reddit runs something like this:

[deck]
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler

4 Burning Tree Emissary
4 Firefist Striker

4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Viashino Firstblade

4 Boros Charm
4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Lightning Strike
2 Shock

10
Mountain
2 Mutavault
2 Temple Garden
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
[/deck]

Might be worth exploring that avenue.

Looks promising. I'd play around with the numbers a bit, like reducing the number of Chained and Shocks and finding room for some number of Magma Jet.

[MattT]

BR have two paths I´ve noticed; either a controlish with YP, Tymaret and Dragon as burn-on-wings finisher or a more creature oriented featuring Ashley and Dog.

Cerberus is an ok meta choice as long as you md more creatures that matter when you revive them. MonoB has 15-18 creatures that are more expensive and slower out of the starting box than our guys. Hence Ashley important in that build. That said, I´m not 100% on dog. He´s more complex and riskier than dragon, but the gain may be bigger.

I tried Guildmage during last season and found it very mana hungry. A more expensive Tymaret without the ca. Yet, she´s awesome for a solving stand offs.

[Elricity]

I would prefer toil // trouble over read the bones because it has a real chance of being a finisher and/or phoenix recursion. The scry two is nice but not enough to miss the "die now please" option when we're playing aggro with redundant kill conditions.

[Valdarith]

If we're talking RB, I'll share the list I had a bit of success with early on.

[deck]
Creatures (23)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Spells (14)
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Dreadbore
3 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (23)
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Swamp
13 Mountain
[/deck]

Probably not the style everyone is looking for, but it completely dominates midrange-based metas.

[LaZerBurn]

I like this list Valdarith

[Valdarith]

I like this list Valdarith

For those that aren't tier 3, my report with the deck:

This deck is SIIIICK. All of my creatures with the exception of Rakdos Cackler are basically burn spells and that is huge. Access to black makes the midrange matchups much more manageable.

Match 1 vs Selesnya midrange: this was a casual player using a casual deck so I casually crushed him both games. We took the extra time to play some 2HG with his friends where we had a hilarious match with my teammate resolving two Assemble the Legion and them resolving a Serra Angel with his teammate putting Madcap Skills on it. We end up winning with 26 soldier tokens
anthemed up with Spear of Heliod. Really nice people and they all reminded me why we play Magic.

Match 2 vs Dega Midrange: pretty much a direct port of Khamal's archetype. Game one I blast through the gates as he durdles with his bad manabase and Read the Bones. He eventually is able to get a couple of Warleader's Helix off but I slam down an Ash Zealot and put him low. He follows with Obzedat and leaves it on the field since he's so low. I swing next turn with the Ash Zealot and force the block, and I Lightning Strike him during first strike damage step. I have lethal in my hand next turn. Game two is closer with him resolving a Demon only to be met with Dreadbore. He then resolves a Blood Baron but I'm able to power through it with multiple Phoenix and an Ash Zealot. He eventually lands Obzedat but I land Chandra for the falter and lethal.

Match 3 vs RDW: this guy definitely knew how to pilot RDW. He's on the draw and mulls to six and stars out with BTE BTE Striker so despite being on the play Im forced to be defensive with my Shred Freaks, Spike Jester, and Ash Zealot. I eventually remove his Striker and power through with Exava and Chandra. Game two I get a nice fast start but he kept a four land hand with Boros Reckoner and I had a Doom Blade for it and win as he floods out.

Like I said earlier, RB never seems to fail me, and I honestly felt better piloting this deck than Dos Rakis a year ago, and that's saying something. I really don't think I need Burning Earth in the sideboard and think some number of Dark Betrayal and other sweet tech would be better. Midrange just likes to resolve a fatty and force me to answer and playing BE just slows my tempo.

I'm sure there are questions about Shred Freak over Satyr, but I like the decision. I'm running four guildgates so it's a solid turn one play for me. Satyr doesn't have haste which is relevant when I'm trying to topdeck gas against midrange and control. Finally not playing Satyr hedges against other aggro decks. I honestly never
missed playing it.

I could be biased but I REALLY like this iteration of Dos Rakis. I think it's the strongest build you can be running. Chandra as a falter every turn is just sick for this deck. The mana is just right. We have powerful sideboard cards. Exava goes toe to toe with pretty much everything. It's just insane.

[Valdarith]

And here's a little RW list I was eluding to earlier last night:

[deck]
Creatures (20)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Spark Trooper

Spells (18)
2 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm

Lands (22)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Mutavault
8 Mountain
[/deck]

Verdict is still out on Spark Trooper. He did a lot of work for me last night because a lot of decks used all their removal on my early plays. I really like the life swing he offers in aggro mirrors game one.

[LaZerBurn]

I like this list Valdarith

For those that aren't tier 3, my report with the deck

Thanks for sharing this, much appreciated

[LP, of the Fires]

Not a mod, but I think Vals RB list belongs in a different thread

[Valdarith]

It does, which is why I said it's not the style everyone is looking for here. Just wanted to briefly mention it since it seems many keep talking about RB. Honestly the only difference in my list is the lack of YP. Despite that the archetype is very similar.

[Elricity]

We're ending up with a few lists where YP is starting to take a back seat a bit. It's less attractive versus Jace.

[dpaine88]

Dayummmmm !!!

Pedro you the fuckin mannnn !!!!!! For real, amazing job.

Now I have 5 days to decide what deck for PTQ this weekend!!!!

R/b with Excava sounds kinda hot....

Also @MDU- Read last 5 pages and missed reasoning for running just 2 Firedrinker, kinda curious as he has been lackluster for me lately with all the Mono Blue and Red Devotion running around and he sucks cock against those decks.

[Helios]

LP is right. Serious discussion of lists without Young Pyromancer needs to take place in another thread. Ya'll are fine for now, but just be aware.

[dpaine88]

Well, I do think the whole thing comes down to a few things.

How well positioned is Stormbreath Dragon?
How well positioned is our beloved Young Pyromancer?
Is a Black splash actually competitive at the moment without the scry land and Dreadbore missing on Master of Waves?

[magicdownunder]

I agree with keeping non-YP$ list away from this thread.

RB is not as good as RW right now, it may improve later.

SBD is strong in Ux and Rx meta game.

YP$ is still very strong but requires a unique mindset when playing with him (you need to be comfortable grinding rather then winning outright, he IS good vs Ux, Bx, small aggro and Gx - he bad vs Big/Devo Rx and control).

EDIT: I moved Firedrinker Satyr into 2x and ran 4x Ash because everybody and their mother (at the time) was playing shrivel or shrivel like effects + like you I agreed that Drinker is bad vs Rx.

[zemanjaski]

New article up later this week

[Valdarith]

RW is best overall. Chained, Charm, and scryland just gives so much game.

[dpaine88]

@ Zem Finally! Checked CFB today hopin for it .

@MDU - I do loooove to grind. Played a Foundry Street all in variant at last SCG and just HATED that feeling of the game slipping away starting turn 3/4 and knowing that there isn't going to be any way to grind it out.

Could you elaborate on how YP is/can be good against MUD? I have had very very little expeirence in this matchup but on paper he doesn't seem very strong.

[magicdownunder]

Lots of people use Boros Reckoner to stone wall Ux devotion, but now that we see 3x Domesticate post board its no longer the best choice.

YP$ however can provide you will a stone wall which trades with MoW tokens all day without being a liability to Domesticate, what makes him so great is that he give you CA while you go about killing everything on Control mode G2+3.

[dpaine88]

Well, they could Domesticate him if they wanted to lol I see your overall point though and how he can be good.

[MattT]

YP$ however can provide you will a stone wall which trades with MoW tokens all day without being a liability to Domesticate

Tymaret solves the Domesticate issue by forcing them to target him at which point a simple Shock destroys it for even value and gears up his recursion. I.e. it´s not much of a help to them and opens up potential ca to us.

Further Chain is counter productive vs MonoU. It´s virtual ca to not removing their Thassa. I prefer to have them have their extra copies rotting in their hand, having spent [mana]u2[/mana] on Scry1 per turn. Chain hits Master, but so does every terror spell which also triggers YP. Everything else they have dies to the burn package.

I´m not completely sold on RW. Charm is iffy and taste of win more. I burn them because I am ahead. If I am behind it´s useless. I protect my creatures in a recursive deck.
Ehh...redundancy? Black offers more recursive creatures instead of negative ca through Charm.

Not to mention how massively good Erebos is in the sb vs. control and MonoB.

The scry land gets no argument of course

[Pedros]

@MattT

Can you post your current rb shell? Want to test a lot deck before ptq, where I will find a lot of mono blue, black and boros devo..

[RaidaTheBlade]

Never make a tweak to a list if your not sure esp. if you net deck the original from someone else (they usually have reason for the choices they make).

When your making tweaks it is vital that you find justification in your choices, for example your local meta lacks weenies decks so you don't need shock effects thus cut a shock.

Anyways, isn't your meta chock full of Dega, Naya and GW? you should be running Mortars over anti weenies spells, though MD Boros Reckoner is solid vs Gx decks.

The only tweak I really had second thoughts about was going x3 jet, x4 chained, but I still think that'd be better then the other way around, for the current meta. (Though might go -1 shock, +1 jet... Not sure yet.)

My changes were made, not for
my specific meta, but the general meta since I am going to another out of town tourny this weekend.
The only thing I really did was drop 2 satyrs and a jet to add in 3 reckoners mainboard.

The 2 decks I'm expecting to see the most this weekend are mono-u and esper/uw control. Switchng reckoners for the stayrs main helps with mono-u but can cause prolems game 1 with the control decks. So i was sorta hedging it between the two.

I am also fairly interested in vundo's list, but I like the idea of trying to hedge it this way. I think it might help keep most of the main matchups favorable.



Edit: This is my edited list I'm talking about, just for the record. Also messed with the sideboard a bit more.

[deck]
Creatures 19
4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Stormbreath Dragon

Thighs 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Removal 16
4 Lightning Strike
3 Magma Jet
3 Shock
2 Flames of the Firebrand
4 Chained to the Rocks

Land 23
12
Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault

Sideboard 15
2 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Boros Charm
2 Last breath
3 Skullcrack
1 Rod of Ruin
[/deck]

[MattT]

@MattT

Can you post your current rb shell? Want to test a lot deck before ptq, where I will find a lot of mono blue, black and boros devo..

There´s 2 really. Control and aggro:

[deck=PyroBlack: Aggro]Creatures
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Underworld Cerberus

Spells
3 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
1 Dreadbore
1 Doom Blade

Planeswalkers
3 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands
2 Godless Shrine
3 Mutavault
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
10 Mountain

Sideboard
4 Duress
1 Dreadbore
1 Ultimate Price
1 Doom Blade
2 Flames of the Firebrand
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Erebos, God of the Dead[/deck]
Control has -4 Ash Zealot, -2 Underworld Cerberus, +1 YP, +3 Tymaret,
+2 Stormbreath Dragon.

[Keftenk]

So MattT, I played this. Had some really interesting games against both Mono B and Mono U. I can't tell if it's just because of the inexperience with some of these black cards such as Exava (or the fact that some of them just aren't optimal in the numbers I have them OR good vs the match ups), but I felt like I had my back against a wall each and every game. The upside? I was able to win the matches...I definitely feel comfortable playing a RW Pyro version, but this...this was....strange. I don't know...lol I was second guessing some SB decisions against Mono B for sure...

I really loved the interaction of Exava vs Desecration Demon though, shooting the demon with a Magma Jet on blocks.

Any thoughts? I'm pretty skeptical honestly...

[deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Rix Maadi Guildmage
4 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Land[/b:
1hh20v53]
4 Mutavault
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Triumph
7 Mountain

Instants
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Shock
1 Ultimate Price

Sorcery
2 Flames of the Firebrand
3 Dreadbore
2 Read the Bones

Planeswalkers
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Skullcrack
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Duress
1 Doom Blade
1 Ultimate Price
[/deck]

[MattT]

So MattT, I played this. Had some really interesting games against both Mono B and Mono U. I can't tell if it's just because of the inexperience with some of these black cards such as Exava (or the fact that some of them just aren't optimal in the numbers I have them OR good vs the match ups), but I felt like I had my back against a wall each and every game. The upside? I was able to win the matches...I definitely feel comfortable playing a RW Pyro version, but this...this was....strange. I don't know...lol I was second guessing some SB decisions against Mono B for sure...

I really loved the interaction of Exava vs Desecration Demon though, shooting the demon with a Magma Jet on blocks.

Any thoughts? I'm pretty skeptical honestly...

[deck]

Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Rix Maadi Guildmage
4 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Land
4 Mutavault
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Triumph
7 Mountain

Instants
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Shock
1 Ultimate Price

Sorcery
2 Flames of the Firebrand
3 Dreadbore
2 Read the Bones

Planeswalkers
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Skullcrack
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Duress
1 Doom Blade
1 Ultimate Price
[/deck]

Sure kef, here´s some observations.

Well, your manabase in a committe imho. -1 Mutavault, -1 Temple of Triumph, +3 Mountains for at least 23 land. As of now you look like you want to be control (everyone LOVES Scry, I know) and poor Phoenixes and Exavas languish in the starting blocks.

Exava is a finisher in an aggro deck, but you
stumble yourself with the mana and the mid field creatures are of the control variety. Bones is also a control feature. Thus does your deck looking like it wants to be both control and aggro. To many of her too, better 2-3.

FotF is a 1 of maybe and Dreadbores are 1 md with the rest sb (this is only because of the reign of MonoU. In the future we can switch back to md). Instead pick the spot removal that fits your meta. My local is ahead in the curve in so far as MonoB is vaning. Thus do I have Doom Blade md instead of UP.

The sb suffers too. Erebos counters MonoB, making Gary an overcosted burn. Exchange the Skullcracks. Mortars are of little use when you have Erebos. Blood Baron turns into 5 mana for a walking 4/4. Pick something that counter your meta for that space.

I think you need to decide which direction you want to go; control or aggro? Tymaret will help you in the control case and Ashley in aggro for a start. Finishers are upp for discussion. I´m testing Underworld Cerberus in aggro, but
Dragon or Exava might fit better.

Good point with Exava + burn. I think that is what Zem alluded to a few pages back.

[Elricity]

If you're running r/b with phoenixes and even considering read the bones, there is almost no reason not to swap it to toil/trouble. You lose the scry two but you gain reach, particularly with the fuse, plus the option to get phoenixes back from the graveyard. It's not even a contest.

Matt's right on the mana base. 18 sources for reckoner SB is awful.

[Valdarith]

Exava is just incredibly well-positioned right now vs everything. Doesn't die to Doom Blade, Ultimate Price, or Lightning Strike. Wins vs Loxodon Smiter, Sylvan Caryatid, Frostburn Weird, Nightveil Specter, and Stormbreath Dragon. Wins vs even bigger creatures with burn in hand. I really enjoyed playing RB and Exava was a big reason why. She DESTROYS midrange decks.

With that said, I just don't see the incentive in running YP in black builds. I really enjoyed playing black because of all the extra hasty guys I was able to fit in my list. It made almost all of my dudes burn spells when topdecked and that's a thing that's hard to trade. Being able to play Dreadbore and Doom Blade in the 75 is just icing on the cake.

My opinion: if you're going to play white without Boros Charm in the 75, then why are you playing white? Black removal is BETTER than Chained to the Rocks because it can't be hit by removal spells like
Abrupt Decay and Peak Eruption and Dreadbore has the added benefit of hitting planeswalkers which is not insignificant. The only upside white offers if you aren't playing Boros Charm is the scryland. Black offers better removal, better creatures, and more speed. And the speed is exactly why you don't play YP$ in black (as much as I love him).