Primer: R/w/x Aggro

[Pedros]

Peak eruption is goodmto get chained to themrocks, but it doesnt stop nyktos shenimgas. However I really like it.

[LP, of the Fires]

It's weird, I watch open coverage, and I see horrible play all the time on camera. Then I went to an Open, and I saw like 8 pros, most of them ranked top 25 or in the hall of fame, and non of them top 16'd.

I value the opens because information is information and people copy the placing decks all the time, so love them or hate them, the opens shape the meta to some point.

[vundo]

Quoted from our local Grim Lavamancer:

Thoughts on SCG and Pros

---

What do you think of 'pro' players?

My views on pro players are quite controversial, but I assure you that they are based on both talking to and playing against them. I firmly believe there are two types of Pros ~ Good and Bad. Examples of Good Pros: Most Japanese players, LSV, Michael Jacob, Jon Finkel, Brian Kibler. Examples of Bad Pros: the entirety of SCG Blue and Mike Flores (especially Mike Flores). This isn't necessarily two polar extremes, most players fit somewhere on the spectrum between those two points. My issue with the Bad Pros is exactly, that, they're bad. Most of these players are just known players on the SCG circuit, which if you
have not played in it, is like a big FNM ~ the skill level is many levels lower than a GP or even MTGO. Success at an SCG event means very little in the scheme of things.

My greater concern is that it is very much the bad Pros that actively court cults of personality and force their opinions into the public, for less experienced and knowledgeable players to eat up and spout like gospel. Why do they do this? Because they don't win a lot of money playing and they desperately need to supplement their income. A lot of the very best players in the world, like Finkel, Martell and Vidugiris work 50 hour weeks and still frequently Top 32 on the PT. Compare that level of achievement to the SCG Blue team who play magic full time and do....basically nothing? LSV and MJ might be full time players as well, but that is only made possible by the huge amount of success they have had.

The other common misconception is that these Pros are unbeatably good at the game. Kibler went 0-3 (after his byes) drop at
the last modern GP, and 1-3 drop at the one before that ~ and he is a top level, dual PT winning player. They can be beaten, especially the lesser ones. I have won matches against most name players online (except MJ, I have never beaten MJ in a match), and have a crushing record against Todd Anderson, which is fine, because he publicly admitted to bullying his wife to let him become a pro player ~ oh, that's the other thing, the lifestyle is not all its cracked up to be either, unless you're one of the Good Pros.

It is fine and good to respect these people, who educate and entertain us. But when it verges on hero worship, it not only doesn't help your own game develop, but it sets you back greatly ~ how can you beat someone if even in your imagination, they always have the answers?

No offense but I think this guy's opinion is stupid rather than controversial. It's kinda off topic so I won't go into it.

On topic[/i:
yxifit56] - I've definitely been liking the pyrowhite + dragon mixup and not sure what I want to do to that MB but I'm not a fan of the peak eruptions in the board. I feel like the 4th reckoner would do more good vs big boros than eruption. Whenever I casted Peak Eruption, I never felt like I could exponentially increase my advantage. Setting back big boros a turn while you have a creature or two on the field is overwhelmingly strong but more often then not, my creatures have been burned away before I cast eruption. Maybe on my turn 3, I can just play another creature to keep up my board presence but peak eruption gets substantially worse as the game continues. The other line of play I see is using peak eruption to combat enemy chained to the rocks but I don't think that's what we want to be waiting for when we have SBDs.

It seems contradictory to what I just said about using peak eruption reactively but maybe we can run a needle? Obviously jace is less of a problem for us than he is for
boss sligh but when I played boss sligh, the 1-of needle was great for jace but also for a variety of other situations.

[magicdownunder]

I mention RW because Peak is only for chains, or for being a jerk when we're on the play (it cripples burn as well since they don't run enough lands).

If you don't like Peak you can run Reck, but your already chock full of aggro hate.

If you take anything over Peak it MUST help you vs Big/Devo Red or at least control.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Here's what I'm thinking:

Medium Boros

[deck]Creatures (21)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandar's Phoenix
2 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells (16)
3 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Chained to the Rocks
3 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (23)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
11 Mountains

Sideboard (15)
4 Boros Reckoner
1 Rod of Ruin
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

VS B Devo
+2 CttR, +2 BC, +3 SC, +1 AtL, -3 Shock, -4 MJ, -1 SBD

VS U Devo
+2 CttR, +1 RoR, +2 MM, +4 BR, -4 RC, -4 FDS, -1 C,PM

VS Control
+2 BC, +3 SC, +2 MM, -2 CttR, -3 Shock, -2 YP$

Third Chandra might need to change. BC SC AtL in the SB might need adjustments in the numbers.

Might not be enough support for YP$.

[magicdownunder]

I somehow forgot about Boros Charm when I was building the SB, what are your thoughts on Boros Charm vs Bx and Rx Devotion? (I know its good vs Control)

Also nice list J_S, you run less redundant cards then I proposed so you'll have a better game vs a diverse field (though MonoU is bad enough to warrant 4 chains imo).

[Lightning_Dolt]

I somehow forgot about Boros Charm when I was building the SB, what are your thoughts on Boros Charm vs Bx and Rx Devotion? (I know its good vs Control)

Also nice list J_S, you run less redundant cards then I proposed so you'll have a better game vs a diverse field (though MonoU is bad enough to warrant 4 chains imo).

My buddy plays Mono Black and has top 8'd high level events locally.

He says that he can't beat rdw if they are playing MD boros charm. He considers it to be his worst match up.

[magicdownunder]

How does MD Boros Charm swing the favor vs Black?

Its just a 1-4-1 or four at dome, I do agree that red is a bad MU for Black - but I can't see how Charm has a massive factor in that outcome.

[Lightning_Dolt]

How does MD Boros Charm swing the favor vs Black?

Its just a 1-4-1 or four at dome, I do agree that red is a bad MU for Black - but I can't see how Charm has a massive factor in that outcome.

He badically said that the 4 damage, especially in multiples, provides so much reach that he can't stabilize.

[LP, of the Fires]

Regardless of matchup, any time I draw two boros charms, it feels like I can't lose. That's a LOT of reach.

[magicdownunder]

Gonna include Boros Charm in my SB now more for dealing with Abrupt decay and Control Sweepers, you reckon its good enough to use against U Devotion - they don't have any life-gain?

[LP, of the Fires]

That's more dubious. I'm inclined to say no since in a matchup where we're taking the control role, 4 to the dome seems meh.

[Lightning_Dolt]

That's more dubious. I'm inclined to say no since in a matchup where we're taking the control role, 4 to the dome seems meh.

I agree. That's why I think they probably shouldn't be mb.

[NerdBoyWonder]

Liking the what I'm calling "Big Walt" list that merge Walter White & Big Boros. Don't know if I will get to try any list out before Born of the Gods comes out though.

Is there a consensus though on whether YP$ makes the cut in Big Boros Shell? Last time I ran the deck was in a BWR Token brew from last season. Been wanting to put him to use.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I just lost to what I can only describe as... boros hexproof? FML lol

[Lightning_Dolt]

After testing all night, I think this (heavily based on MDU and Z's work, focussing mainly on tuning the SB) is where I want to be:

[deck]Creatures (21)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells (16)
3 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
1 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (23)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
11 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Boros Reckoner
1 Rod of Ruin
2 Chained to the Rocks
3 Boros Charm
2 Skullcrack
1 Last Breath
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

The Rod should maybe be another Last Breath? Hard to say. Beating up the four decks I care about (Mono U, Mono B, Esper, RDW) though. Pretty happy with this list for right now.

Give it a try, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Feels like the States list Dpainne /
KhaosSpawn came up with at the start of RTR standard.

[LaZerBurn]

I like the list a lot, the various builds are looking very similar now

[NerdBoyWonder]

After testing all night, I think this (heavily based on MDU and Z's work, focussing mainly on tuning the SB) is where I want to be:

[deck]Creatures (21)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells (16)
3 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
1 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (23)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
11 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Boros Reckoner
1 Rod of Ruin
2 Chained to the Rocks
3 Boros Charm
2 Skullcrack
1 Last Breath
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

The Rod should maybe be another Last Breath? Hard to say. Beating up the four decks I care about (Mono U, Mono
B, Esper, RDW) though. Pretty happy with this list for right now.

Give it a try, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Feels like the States list Dpainne / KhaosSpawn came up with at the start of RTR standard.

Have to give this a whirl. All major players locally have shifted to mono black + variants & mono black.

[dpaine88]

I'm really digging this deck.

Played All-In-Red at the SCG and did pretty good(6-1 start till I hit 2 Mono-U)

However, I just hated the feeling that starting turn 2, the game is basically fading for me. Couldn't grind for shit. Very little margin for error. Not evn sure why I ran it, guess I panicked and went simple.

I have been playing Pyro-Red for a bit though at FNM's and a GPT.


That said, Johnny Spike's last list looks REALLY FUCKING GOOD.

Like really love the look of this list.

Can't wait to try it out.

[magicdownunder]

Hey Johnny glad to see people are working on the general list, I recalled you had problems during with Bg Devotion with Reapers? I would recommend cutting your Boros Charms to 2x, moving 1 YP$ into the boards and running 1x Pyrewild Shaman MD.

Shaman acts like an expensive YP$ or Chandra's Phoenix, so the cut won't effect your decks overall feel, he will however greatly improve your Gr and Bg Devotion MU.

p.s. I think any list running 3x YP$+ should be in the Pyro thread, while anything running 3x Dragons+ (with 24+ lands of course) should be the Big Boros Thread.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Hey Johnny glad to see people are working on the general list, I recalled you had problems during with Bg Devotion with Reapers? I would recommend cutting your Boros Charms to 2x, moving 1 YP$ into the boards and running 1x Pyrewild Shaman MD.

Shaman acts like an expensive YP$ or Chandra's Phoenix, so the cut won't effect your decks overall feel, he will however greatly improve your Gr and Bg Devotion MU.

p.s. I think any list running 3x YP$+ should be in the Pyro thread, while anything running 3x Dragons+ (with 24+ lands of course) should be the Big Boros Thread.

That makes sense.

[dpaine88]

I tested the deck out tonight for about 90 minutes.

Very happy.

Not sure if I want the 60th card to be YP$, Chaind or Pyrewild Shaman. Could make a case for any.

[magicdownunder]

Chains vs Large meta, MonoU IS hard enough for that - lots of Hexproof then Shaman.

Heck you could cut one Dragon MD for Shaman since Dragon isn't great vs Black based decks (which are common as heck) and 1 YP$ for Chain.

Which gives you room for 1x Dragon and 1x YP$ in SB.

[deck=MDU's PyroDragon]Creatures (20)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
2 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
1 Pyrewild Shaman
1 Stormbreath Dragon

Instant (11)
3 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike

Others (6)
1 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Chained to the Rocks

Lands (23)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
11 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Boros Reckoner
1 Rod of Ruin
1 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack
1 Last Breath
1 Young Pyromancer
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

This
list is very much like soebek tweak of my old list.

[Tyrael]

I just lost to what I can only describe as... boros hexproof? FML lol

Remember some of his list?

[dpaine88]

Is Rod of Ruin really worth it or would a Last Breath just be better? Rod I guess has better application but it takes basically 2 full turns and relies on you hitting 4 mana which can be difficult.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I just lost to what I can only describe as... boros hexproof? FML lol

Remember some of his list?

Soldier of the pantheon, boros reckoner, madcap skills, ajani, gift of orzhova, fiendslayer paladin, titan's strength etc.

It was a pile.

[magicdownunder]

MTGO Meta Update: Red, Blue, Green, White and Black everywhere (its a fantastic meta).

Dragons, Demons and Merfolk are still the main enemies which in turn has forced me too pre-board most of my removal as a result the Pyro shell didn't provide enough punch to get around my lack of threats thus I've now return back to Boros Aggro (aka big boros).

Here is my current list, I'm still trying to steal/borrow [card]Legion's Initiative[/card] (I refuse to pay $3 for a card which I think is bad, but want to test) from someone so I'm currently playing 1 random wacky card.

[deck=MDU's Boros Aggro]Lands 25
12 Mountains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
1 Boros Guildgate

Creatures 20
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 10
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Mizzium Mortars

nEnchantments 5
4 Chained to the Rocks
1 Assemble the Legion

Sideboard 15
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Last Breath
1 Haunted Plate Mail
1 Rod of Ruin
2 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

So far I've played one 2-man (vs Ux Devotion 2-1) and one 8-man (vs Boros Devo 2-1, Gr Devo 2-0 and the last round is unknown)

[LaZerBurn]

Ah the list I will give it a try

[Lightning_Dolt]

MTGO Meta Update: Red, Blue, Green, White and Black everywhere (its a fantastic meta).

Dragons, Demons and Merfolk are still the main enemies which in turn has forced me too pre-board most of my removal as a result the Pyro shell didn't provide enough punch to get around my lack of threats thus I've now return back to Boros Aggro (aka big boros).

Here is my current list, I'm still trying to steal/borrow [card]Legion's Initiative[/card] (I refuse to pay $3 for a card which I think is bad, but want to test) from someone so I'm currently playing 1 random wacky card.

[deck=MDU's Boros Aggro]Lands 25
12 Mountains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
1 Boros Guildgate

nCreatures 20
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 10
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Mizzium Mortars

Enchantments 5
4 Chained to the Rocks
1 Assemble the Legion

Sideboard 15
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Last Breath
1 Haunted Plate Mail
1 Rod of Ruin
2 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

So far I've played one 2-man (vs Ux Devotion 2-1) and one 8-man (vs Boros Devo 2-1, Gr Devo 2-0 and the last round is unknown)

No Chandra???

[magicdownunder]

No Chandra???

I know... for me that was the hardest cut I've ever made...

Anyhow here are some videos of the above deck in action (my Sb plan was a mess and it almost killed me, but meh I still have time to learn)

Standard Elimination G1: Boros Legion vs Boros Devotion (Event 6411978)
Standard Elimination G2: Boros Legion vs Gr Devotion (Event 6411978)
Standard Elimination G3: Boros Legion vs Boros Devotion (Event
6411978)

Since my last Opp. didn't concede I got 5 boosters so I brought [card]Legion's Initiative[/card] to finish my deck up which now looks like this:

[deck=MDU's Boros Legion]Lands 25
12 Mountains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
1 Boros Guildgate

Creatures 20
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 10
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Mizzium Mortars

Enchantments 5
4 Chained to the Rocks
1 Assemble the Legion

Sideboard 15
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Last Breath
1 Legion's Initiative
1 Rod of Ruin
2 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]
I stomped on Ux Devotion before the 8-Man, my initial opinion on this list is that its well positioned to take on Ux, Gx, Bx and Rx.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Very interested in this list.

[LaZerBurn]

I'm missing a Legions Initiative so I'm running a 3rd Boros Charm for the time being

[notap123]

@MDU

Would you elaborate on Legions Initiative and Haunted Plate for me/us? I assume the plate is for a late game finisher but what is legions for especially as a one of? Just to get damage in if its played early enough?

[magicdownunder]

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=155672#p155672:1n8mt5k4]notap123 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:21 am[/url:1n8mt5k4]":1n8mt5k4]@MDU

Would you elaborate on Legions Initiative and Haunted Plate for me/us? I assume the plate is for a late game finisher but what is legions for especially as a one of? Just to get damage in if its played early enough?[/quote:1n8mt5k4]

The Plate was just a filler card while I waited to steal LI, in theory plate was meant to be card which punishes players which run tons of sorc speed removals and sweepers (like Naya Control).

[card:1n8mt5k4]Legion's Initiative[/card:1n8mt5k4] is pretty much my third Boros Charm except it can help you dodge enchantments, Shrivel effects and Exile effects while also having stupid Synergy with the tokens which [card:1n8mt5k4]Assemble the Legion[/card:1n8mt5k4] produces.

[zemanjaski]

Quoted from our local Grim Lavamancer:

Thoughts on SCG and Pros

---

What do you think of 'pro' players?

My views on pro players are quite controversial, but I assure you that they are based on both talking to and playing against them. I firmly believe there are two types of Pros ~ Good and Bad. Examples of Good Pros: Most Japanese players, LSV, Michael Jacob, Jon Finkel, Brian Kibler. Examples of Bad Pros: the entirety of SCG Blue and Mike Flores (especially Mike Flores). This isn't necessarily two polar extremes, most players fit somewhere on the spectrum between
those two points. My issue with the Bad Pros is exactly, that, they're bad. Most of these players are just known players on the SCG circuit, which if you have not played in it, is like a big FNM ~ the skill level is many levels lower than a GP or even MTGO. Success at an SCG event means very little in the scheme of things.

My greater concern is that it is very much the bad Pros that actively court cults of personality and force their opinions into the public, for less experienced and knowledgeable players to eat up and spout like gospel. Why do they do this? Because they don't win a lot of money playing and they desperately need to supplement their income. A lot of the very best players in the world, like Finkel, Martell and Vidugiris work 50 hour weeks and still frequently Top 32 on the PT. Compare that level of achievement to the SCG Blue team who play magic full time and do....basically nothing? LSV and MJ might be full time players as well, but that is only made possible by the huge amount of
success they have had.

The other common misconception is that these Pros are unbeatably good at the game. Kibler went 0-3 (after his byes) drop at the last modern GP, and 1-3 drop at the one before that ~ and he is a top level, dual PT winning player. They can be beaten, especially the lesser ones. I have won matches against most name players online (except MJ, I have never beaten MJ in a match), and have a crushing record against Todd Anderson, which is fine, because he publicly admitted to bullying his wife to let him become a pro player ~ oh, that's the other thing, the lifestyle is not all its cracked up to be either, unless you're one of the Good Pros.

It is fine and good to respect these people, who educate and entertain us. But when it verges on hero worship, it not only doesn't help your own game develop, but it sets you back greatly ~ how can you beat someone if even in your imagination, they always have the answers?

No offense
but I think this guy's opinion is stupid rather than controversial. It's kinda off topic so I won't go into it.

Offence taken.

[JdubCT]

@MDU

Would you elaborate on Legions Initiative and Haunted Plate for me/us? I assume the plate is for a late game finisher but what is legions for especially as a one of? Just to get damage in if its played early enough?

The Plate was just a filler card while I waited to steal LI, in theory plate was meant to be card which punishes players which run tons of sorc speed removals and sweepers (like Naya Control).

[card]Legion's Initiative[/card] is pretty much my third Boros Charm except it can help you dodge enchantments, Shrivel effects and Exile effects
while also having stupid Synergy with the tokens which Assemble the Legion produces.

If you ran Fanatic of Mogis or Purphoros, God of the Forge the flicker is a pretty big finisher.

[notap123]

I've been going back n forth on whether to let YP go myself. I've been testing just 2 in the MD but it seems kind of pointless. As far as "to Chandra or not", I think its not just about Chandra but the amount of loss interaction with phoenix you lose when you drop her as well as burn. Here is what I am thinking about:

[deck]Creature (20)
4x Ash Zealot
4x Chandra's Phoenix
4x Firedrinker Satyr
1x Pyrewild Shaman
4x Rakdos Cackler
3x Stormbreath Dragon
Sorcery (2)
2x Flames of the Firebrand
Enchantment (3)
3x Chained to the Rocks
Land (23)
11x Mountain
4x Mutavault
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple of Triumph
Instant (10)
4x Lightning Strike
3x Magma Jet
3x Shock
Planeswalker (2)
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
Sideboard (15)
2x Boros Charm
3x Boros Reckoner
1x Chained to the Rocks
2x Last Breath
3x Mizzium Mortars
1x Rod of Ruin
3x Skullcrack[/deck]

Is 23 lands too low for three dragons?

[LaZerBurn]

Is 23 lands too low for three dragons?

It's pushing it I think PyroDragons ran 2 off 23 ok but for 3 I'd want 24/25.

[PirateKingAtomsk]

From my experience running rakhammer last standard on 3 dragons you'll want to run 24 land to geth then out closer to curve , and not that your aiming to make them monstrous but 24 will help you hit that soon too.

[notap123]

I'll have to goldfish for awhile but I might just end up running 2 chains MD for the 24th land.