Ragnarok Mafia (Scum Win) Tattered Banners and Bloody Flags

[hamfactorial]

@ TubeHunter

I don't understand why you were so quick to kill Z. You didn't express any suspicion of him as scum, and the whole exchange read like you were just angry with him tunneling you.

My role PM said that you were Odin, so you being scum didn't make sense from a flavor standpoint at all. But why would Odin have a kill that could only be used on his neighbors? The ability makes no sense from a flavor perspective either, so I'm concluding that the mafia roles aren't tied to the alignment of the mythology at all, and you could be scummy.

There's also the possibility that your kill wasn't limited to just neighbors, as Iso hasn't confirmed that at all.

I read Z as town, and now I'm going to look back at his analysis of you to see if he mentioned anything worth following up on.

@ Stardust

Why do you have zero interest in lynching TH? Is this erratic behavior normal for you? What about my behavior
have you found scummy?

[Stardust]

With regards to TubeHunter, his play lately is similar to his scumplay in the game I modded.

Yeah, he was town that game. You REALLY need to stop using meta.

As far as the WIFOM thing, I suppose that's not quite the right term. Uhm. He was basically saying you're too scummy to be scum, yes? That just doesn't work to me. Because if you take the argument at its negative: "player X is too townie to be town" it's gibberish, don't you agree? That's what I meant.

He did say those words, but what he meant was that he could see a possible town motivation
for that scumminess. If it's WIFOM (and it is), then there needs to have been both a town motivation and a scum motivation. It clearly shows that there could have been a town mindset behind that scummy post of mine. That's my point.

What is the huge difference between "trying to say things that make you look town" and "trying to say things that look like they could have came from town"?

I wasn't trying to look town with that scummy post. If I wanted to do that I would have just carried on with the status quo. Instead I wanted some reactions, so I said things that could have come from scum, but also could have come from town. That last bit is important so that I don't get lynched, but the huge difference is in the end goal. My goal wasn't to make you think I'm townie. My goal was to make you think I'
m null (and get some content in the process).

Your first name is Stardust? o.o

Yes.

Like most of your words this game, any discussion on motive results in useless WIFOM.
I'm going to rant on the WIFOM thing in a bit if I have time tonight, but first, Starbuck Stardust: can you point out more examples of me doing this? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Maybe others have a hard time telling when you're not being serious, but I could tell that most of what you were throwing out early in the game was garbage to get reactions. I can go back and get more examples later if you really
want me to, but all your "this guy + this guy scumteam. GG!" comes to mind. It's useless to discuss your motivation for posting stuff like that.

unvote votestardust

unvote stardust claims he's at l-2, true?

Was this a test for double-voters?

... [b:
k04qmg74]what.[/b]

I've been in games previously that had hidden double voters, guys that show in the count as 1 vote, but actually count for 2. There hadn't even been a votecount yet, so even a double voter who's vote did count as two would have worked. Yanni's quick vote/unvote looks innocent enough, but my thought was that he might have been looking for the quick "accidental" mislynch (obviously 100% scum motivated, if true). So I asked him about it, curious to get a reaction. Still not sure, but he's on my radar anyway.



Just a note here that hammy's posts are reminding me a lot of my posts in my first game (where I was scum). Talking about lynching active players to get more information, lynching at random being more likely to hit scum, that sort of thing. It's easiest as scum to hide behind logic. Not saying he's wrong, but the lack of actual feeling is tipping me off.

Can someone help me sort Pie? I can't get a hold on him.

I think he's town.



Yanni! Stop chasing rabbits. What are your thoughts on TubeHunter, hamfactorial, Pie and imopen?

The players who are on my watch list are TubeHunter, Kaze, you and InflatablePie. This isn't to say that I think you're mafia, but that there is enough information for me to sift through that I might get useful reads later. I'm looking for nearly any reason to fill the list of scummy suspects, so I'm sure I have false positives. There may be lurking scum that I haven't noticed (Lord_McDonald, for example), but they don't post enough to be on my radar. I went over this in my conversation with Kaze.[/
quote]
Everyone! Please note the extremely weak language here.

Hammy, I asked you for a list of who you thought was mafia. Do you think anyone is mafia, or are you just looking to lynch someone based on how much information it could give you?

I can see your "scum slip" (note that I never called it that, just unusual) from both sides. If you're town, talking about town MO, you could be trying to draw attention to yourself to generate discussion. Taking notice of who piles on could give you a short list of scum suspects to watch out for. As mafia, this could be an easy way to explain this away later with "how could I be scum? Would scum try to appear town this clumsily?" Maybe you're not aligned with either town or mafia, but there's no 3rd party stuff
mentioned in the game's first post.

I have no idea how you can hold this opinion. Either my scum slip came from scum, or it came from town (or neutral, I guess), but there's not a snowball's chance in hell that it came from a townie looking for reactions. Not when it's that innocuous.

Kaze, one has to be town and one has to be scum right? What would be the point of that ability if one wasn't?

Also I'm down for lynching tubehunter anyway.

unvote
vote: Tubehunter

What the hell is this!? I thought I was your one-true-wagon? What changed, rezmo?

@ Stardust

Why do you have zero
interest in lynching TH? Is this erratic behavior normal for you? What about my behavior have you found scummy?

What's so erratic about my behaviour?

[rezombad]

things change stardust. when someone says 'im dayvigging one of two people', the stardust lynch is not going to be a thing

vote hamfactorial

[Stardust]

You're breakin' my heart, man!

Seriously, glad to see you're at least willing to be reasonable. Your tunnel vision had me worried, even though most of your posting feels like a townie.

[hamfactorial]

unvote votestardust

unvote stardust claims he's at l-2,
true?

Was this a test for double-voters?

... what.

I've been in games previously that had hidden double voters, guys that show in the count as 1 vote, but actually count for 2. There hadn't even been a votecount yet, so even a double voter who's vote did count as two would have worked. Yanni's quick vote/unvote looks innocent enough, but my thought was that he might have been looking for the quick "accidental" mislynch (obviously 100% scum motivated, if true). So I asked him about it, curious to get a reaction. Still not sure, but he's on my radar anyway.

Thanks for posting this, I didn't know that double-voting was a thing in mafia. I'll pay more attention to Yanni now, as he was previously not on my radar. I've been focusing on players who are posting a lot and players who I know from FoS.

Just a note here that hammy's posts are reminding me a lot of my posts in my first game (where I was scum). Talking about lynching active players to get more information, lynching at random being more likely to hit scum, that sort of thing. It's easiest as scum to hide behind logic. Not saying he's wrong, but the lack of actual feeling is tipping me off.

I'm turning off my emotions on purpose here. Any one of the players that I know personally from FoS might be mafia, and it's in their best interest to play dirty. I'm playing logically, so my posts will certainly lack feeling.

The players who
are on my watch list are TubeHunter, Kaze, you and InflatablePie. This isn't to say that I think you're mafia, but that there is enough information for me to sift through that I might get useful reads later. I'm looking for nearly any reason to fill the list of scummy suspects, so I'm sure I have false positives. There may be lurking scum that I haven't noticed (Lord_McDonald, for example), but they don't post enough to be on my radar. I went over this in my conversation with Kaze.

Everyone! Please note the extremely weak language here.

Hammy, I asked you for a list of who you thought was mafia. Do you think anyone is mafia, or are you just looking to lynch someone based on how much information it could give you?

Yesterday I was looking to lynch someone to get information, but TubeHunter went and did that for me.

In my PM, my neighbors were TubeHunter and zemanjaski. Assuming 2
mafia (maybe 3), the odds of both being scum were low. I didn't want to vote for TH yesterday while Z was pressuring him, since I assumed they were both town based on the flavor (see my previous post). I also didn't want to say "TH is town because we're neighbors" because I don't know how much of a role PM should be kept secret. This is my first game, so I'm trying not to overstep any hidden boundaries.

Then TubeHunter went off all half-cocked on Z and he flipped town. Now that the flavor angle has been busted open for me, I suspect that TubeHunter is scummy.

If I look at TubeHunter's behavior from a mafia standpoint, it makes sense to me.

-begin hypothetical- He had a daykill available, but suspected he was going to be lynched on day 1, so took a shot at the nearest town (Z) to shut him up and reset the votecount. With Z gone, he can argue that I am scum because Z flipped town. -end hypothetical-

oh i fucked up. oops

Vote:Ham

Note the flippant response to killing Z in the above post.

I can see your "scum slip" (note that I never called it that, just unusual) from both sides. If you're town, talking about town MO, you could be trying to draw attention to yourself to generate discussion. Taking notice of who piles on could give you a short list of scum suspects to watch out for. As mafia, this could be an easy way to explain this away later with "how could I be scum? Would scum
try to appear town this clumsily?" Maybe you're not aligned with either town or mafia, but there's no 3rd party stuff mentioned in the game's first post.

I have no idea how you can hold this opinion. Either my scum slip came from scum, or it came from town (or neutral, I guess), but there's not a snowball's chance in hell that it came from a townie looking for reactions. Not when it's that innocuous.

I don't know what to make of you yet, I'm just posting my thoughts on each player as they develop.

@ Stardust

Why do you have zero interest in lynching TH? Is this erratic behavior normal for you? What about my behavior have you
found scummy?

What's so erratic about my behaviour?

I meant TubeHunter's behavior as being erratic, not yours. Obviously you think I'm scum, but what about TubeHunter?

[rcwraspy]

i don't think my vote counts any longer, but just for posterity's sake:
UNVOTE TubeHunter

Vote: Hamfactorial

I'd like to see a claim once we get Ham to L-2

[hamfactorial]

I'll claim right now. I'm vanilla town.

[DroppinSuga]

Oh boy, that never ends well.

[hamfactorial]

It's an unusual game, so I'm interested to see what you guys make of my townie corpse after the flip.

[rezombad]

i lol'd at the claim

[rcwraspy]

I'll claim right now. I'm vanilla town.

Ugh. That really doesn't help. Of course, if you ARE vanilla town, it's not your fault that it doesn't help.

So Tube had a dayvig that he can kill a neighbor and claimed Ham and Zem as neighbors. He killed Zem and Zem flipped town.

It would make sense that a neighbor would be scum, right?

Scum usually claim vanilla town.

Or Iso could just be fucking with us.

[Stardust]

I'll claim right now. I'm vanilla town.

... other than the fact that you're a neighbour, right?

I wish Z had claimed. It hadn't occurred to me that Iso probably wouldn't be revealing the full PM's or I would have phone posted that last night.

[hamfactorial]

I'll claim right now. I'm vanilla town.

... other than the fact that you're a neighbour, right?

I wish Z had claimed. It hadn't occurred to me that Iso probably wouldn't be revealing the full PM's or I would have phone posted that last night.

Yes, Z and TubeHunter are my neighbors. I assume that the name of my character doesn't matter, but I'm Huginn, Messenger of Odin. By vanilla I mean that I don't have any abilities.

[Stardust]

If I look at TubeHunter's behavior from a mafia standpoint, it makes sense to me.

-begin hypothetical- He had a daykill available, but suspected he was going to be lynched on day 1, so took a shot at the nearest town (Z) to shut him up and reset the votecount. With Z gone, he can argue that I am scum because Z flipped town. -end hypothetical-

99% of day killers are town aligned. This is a bit different in that he was restricted to shooting his neighbours, but I'd be more inclined to think all three of you were town than to think that Tube is scum.

I meant TubeHunter's behavior as being erratic, not yours. Obviously you think I'm scum, but what about TubeHunter?

TubeHunter cracks under pressure. He completely flips out when people are going after him, and assumes it's because they're scum. Actually, I should stop this.

TubeHunter! Why did you shoot zemanjaski?

[Yannaria]

oh...

unvote vote starudst

[Stardust]

Yanni, answer my question.

[rcwraspy]

oh...

unvote vote starudst

Official policy of the Boston MBTA: see something, say something.

[TubeHunter]

Beacause I knew with my ability, one of them had to be scum... Right? Z was hounding me the entire game after I made a post that I didn't even think was that bad, so I got flustered and thought I didn't have a choice. If I got lynched without using my ability and z was scum. I would've felt terrible (unsurprisingly like how I feel now). And I figured that even if I somehow didn't hit right, ham has to be scum.

[Yannaria]

Yanni, answer my question.

what question

[hamfactorial]

Beacause I knew with my ability, one of them had to be scum... Right? Z was hounding me the entire game after I made a post that I didn't even think was that bad, so I got flustered and thought I didn't have a choice. If I got lynched without using my ability and z was scum. I would've felt terrible (unsurprisingly like how I feel now). And I figured that even if I somehow didn't hit right, ham has to be scum.

Not necessarily. I thought we were all town based on our roles, but the flavor took a hit with you getting a daykill ability. If you get me lynched, I'll flip town and everyone will think you're scummy.

I'm in over my head here, so I'm leaving it to the more experienced town members to make sense of this mess after the bodies pile
up.

[Stardust]

Yanni, answer my question.

what question

Yanni! Stop chasing rabbits. What are your thoughts on TubeHunter, hamfactorial, Pie and imopen?

[Yannaria]

Yanni, answer my question.

what question

Yanni! Stop chasing rabbits. What are your thoughts on TubeHunter, hamfactorial, Pie and imopen?

thought tubes was scum, now he's pretty much confirmed town
in my eyes. ham is giving me noob town vibes. pie I think is scum but is acting pretty towny but his miller claim is a pretext to that so idk. imopen is being imopen

[Stardust]

Hmm, just reading up on the flavour now, zemanjaski and hammy are ravens who bring Odin (TubeHunter) information. The flavour of the kill ability seems weird, but the neighbours thing is cool. I'm really wondering now if all three are town. hammy's latest posts have me doubting my resolve, and this is the kind of thing that Iso would love to balance around.

TubeHunter! Do you have any other abilities?

[rezombad]

Hmm, just reading up on the flavour now, zemanjaski and hammy are ravens who bring Odin (TubeHunter) information. The flavour of the kill ability seems weird, but the neighbours thing is cool. I'm really wondering now if all three are town. hammy's latest posts have me doubting my resolve, and this is the kind of thing that Iso would love to balance around.

TubeHunter! Do you have any other abilities?

what if odin found out one of his messengers was working for the frost giants, but he isn't sure which?

[Stardust]

Well, yeah, you can justify the flavour either way. I wouldn't use flavour to clear someone regardless. It's hammy's latest posts that are giving me doubts. When he says he's town, it feels genuine, and thinking ahead to beyond his death is a townie thought process.

[TubeHunter]

None, just the neighbors and the kill

[rezombad]

Well, yeah, you can justify the flavour either way. I wouldn't use flavour to clear someone regardless. It's hammy's latest posts that are giving me doubts. When he says he's town, it feels genuine, and thinking ahead to beyond his death is a townie thought process.

You mean that post where he claims vanilla town?

Also, since the three of them are neighbors, you'd think they would work together a little bit in their own chat or whatever first before bringing all that in here.

[Stardust]

This post, rezombad.
|
|
v

Beacause I knew with my ability, one of them had to be scum... Right? Z was hounding me the entire game after I made a post that I didn't even think was that bad, so I got flustered and thought I didn't have a choice. If I got lynched without using my ability and z was scum. I would've felt terrible (unsurprisingly like how I feel now). And I figured that even if I somehow didn't hit right, ham has to be scum.

Not necessarily. I thought we were all town based on our roles, but the flavor took a hit with you getting a daykill ability. If you get me lynched, I'll flip town and everyone will think you're scummy.

I'm in over my head here, so I'm leaving it to the more
experienced town members to make sense of this mess after the bodies pile up.

None, just the neighbors and the kill

So... you're saying you can't perform the mafia nightkill?




2. Stardust - town
3. imopen2
4. Lord_McDonalds
5. hamfactorial- town
6. rezombad - town
7. Yannaria - town
8. InflatablePie
9. Kazekirimaru - town
10. rcwraspy
11. DroppinSuga - town
12. TubeHunter - town

Ugh. I'm running low on reads. Someone do something scummy or I might have to lynch imopen.

[Stardust]

Also, since the three of them are neighbors, you'd think they would work together a little bit in their own chat or whatever first before bringing all that in here.

I guess. They're all newbies. I imagine their chat wasn't very useful to them. TubeHunter should have claimed the kill ability in the chat ahead of time. That would have gotten them talking.

[rezombad]

Stardust, they're 3 neighbors. Ham is scum, get your head in the game.

[Stardust]

Stardust, they're 3 neighbors. Ham is scum, get your head in the game.

But that's what Iso wants me to think!!!

My vote is still on ham. But him flipping town is definitely in the realm of possibility. I hate modgaming, especially in an Iso game. But I guess I did catch some scummy stuff?

[hamfactorial]

Also, since the three of them are neighbors, you'd think they would work together a little bit in their own chat or whatever first before bringing all that in here.

I guess. They're all newbies. I imagine their chat wasn't very useful to them. TubeHunter should have claimed the kill ability in the chat ahead of time. That would have gotten them talking.

Yeah, it didn't do anything for us. It was locked only an hour or two after the game started, before I'd made my RVS vote.

[rcwraspy]

Ham, what are your scum reads?

[Stardust]

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1970&p=144066#p144066 - Legit RVS vote.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1970&p=144401#p144401 - Legit unvote.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1970&p=144428#p144428 - Pointing out an imopen/Pie fight. "What's going on here? It looks scummy the way they're arguing and making inferences about each other over something that hasn't happened." Possibly looking for experienced player backup on something he found (if town). Possibly setting up a false dichotomy (if scum).

[
quote="hamfactorial » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:59 pm"]I don't know enough about either player to make any real assumptions based on posting behavior. Stardust confused me by talking about a town MO. He pretty quickly got up to L-2 but didn't seem concerned. Either he's super cool under pressure or he knows that a mislynch could help reveal a scummy player on day 2.[/quote]
Not sure what to make of this. I feel like it should be alignment indicative, but I can't quite get there. He thinks I'm trying to get mislynched to give the town more information?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1970&p=144467#p144467 - Starts a series of posts talking about coaching in the pregame. Slight scumtell for a new player.

I didn't imply Z was mafia aligned, just giving my thoughts about him in response to TH asking me about him and Stardust.

That is very confusing to me. He's either acting silly on purpose to draw information out or playing next level mind games to make people reading him as scum look scummy. The signal/noise ratio is low, so any read on him feels weak.

Here we start the standard of hammy not calling anyone scummy, ever. This is easily the biggest strike against.

Everything here is next level to me, this is my first game. He's
an experienced player, so I don't know why he would mention a town MO unless he's doing it on purpose.

Or, you know, I could be scum, which is really where your mind should be going here.

I'm browsing on my lunch break at work, reading through the posts by members I haven't paid much attention to yet like Yanni and rez.

This one's townie.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1970&p=144615#p144615 - viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1970&p=144621#p144621 - viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1970&p=144626#p144626 - I mentioned this previously, but posts like these remind me very much of my first scum game.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1970&p=144806#p144806 - Continues not calling anyone scum, most notably me. If he truly believes everything he's saying about me, I should be the strongest scum read ever.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1970&p=144815#p144815 - Deferring to the majority again. Might be town, probably scum.

Thanks for posting this, I didn't know that
double-voting was a thing in mafia. I'll pay more attention to Yanni now, as he was previously not on my radar. I've been focusing on players who are posting a lot and players who I know from FoS.

Hmm, this is interesting considering this post. He previously was looking into Yanni.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1970&p=145203#p145203 - viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1970&p=145209#p145209 - viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1970&p=145227#p145227 - Three most recent
posts, all of which feel townie to me.


Anyway, glad I did that. My resolve is back. Let's lynch hammy.

[Stardust]

Also, since the three of them are neighbors, you'd think they would work together a little bit in their own chat or whatever first before bringing all that in here.

I guess. They're all newbies. I imagine their chat wasn't very useful to them. TubeHunter should have claimed the kill ability in the chat ahead of time. That would have gotten them talking.

Yeah, it didn't do anything for us. It was locked
only an hour or two after the game started, before I'd made my RVS vote.

It was locked? What does that mean? You were only able to chat at night?

[rezombad]

Stardust, they're 3 neighbors. Ham is scum, get your head in the game.

But that's what Iso wants me to think!!!

My vote is still on ham. But him flipping town is definitely in the realm of possibility. I hate modgaming, especially in an Iso game. But I guess I did catch some scummy stuff?

You need to be resolute. This 'I'm gonna vote for hamfactorial, but run around yelling about how he is town' is bs and makes me think you are trying to prevent your scumbuddy from
being lynched while staying on the wagon just in case it picks up steam so you can get get towncred when he flips. So far the only thing he's said is 'im going to flip town'

pedit: lol

[Stardust]

I don't know enough about either player to make any real assumptions based on posting behavior. Stardust confused me by talking about a town MO. He pretty quickly got up to L-2 but didn't seem concerned. Either he's super cool under pressure or he knows that a mislynch could help reveal a scummy player on day 2.

Not sure what to make of this. I feel like it should be alignment indicative, but I can't quite get there. He thinks I'm trying to get mislynched to give the town more information?

Oh, oh! I got it! It's a slip! He knows I'm going to be a mislynch!

[rcwraspy]

Ok, so after Stardust's Index post, I have 2 questions for Ham. The first I've already asked - who are your scum reads?

The new question is - can you elaborate on why you seemed to fence-sit on Stardust? It seems like you really didn't like what he was doing or how he was acting but you couldn't pull the trigger in your mind to call him scum. Why? You've already talked about it a bit, but I'd love an elaboration.

[Stardust]

Oh boy, that never ends well.

Suga, what do you think of the current situation here? Is one of TubeHunter/hamfactorial scum? Which one? Any other leads?

[Stardust]

Hey rcw! Having fun as town? Tell me about it.