[Primer] PyroRed

[Zooligan]

G/W has been a non-issue for me. You can easily control them by killing all their guys and play around combat tricks.

How do you deal with the hexproof creatures, especially T1 Gladecover that they suit up with Unflinching Courage and Gift of Orzhova to make hexproof flying lifelinking trample abominations? Can't wait til you've got 6 mana to overload Mizzium Mortars.

[Helios]

MDU: It'll be tomorrow night before I test it, if then. I have 0 time to test during the week, pretty much all of my posting is from work/school and I have a thesis to finish in 2 weeks

[FullofGravy]

Zooligan - I believe the hexproof matchup had been defined as harder; fundamentally it's rather different.

Ultimately Esper is playing 2-3 MD Devour Flesh etc. so I figure the deck will get crushed fairly reliably by a lot of the decks at the tournaments.

[LaZerBurn]

Keep in mind I still think its in our favor but its much harder then it use to be.

Agreed I've played (and beaten) it a couple of times now and the basic strategy (check the match up guide on page 1 of the primer) remains the same.

[Zooligan]

Zooligan - I believe the hexproof matchup had been defined as harder; fundamentally it's rather different.

Unfortunately, that's where I'm seeing G/W and G/W/x decks go locally is to Gladecover Scout and Witchstalker, in addition to the usual Fleecemane Lion, Voice of Resurgence, and Boon Satyr.

I'm thinking [card]Wear // Tear[/card] to attack the enchantments themselves and hopefully catch them in a combat scenario I can turn to my advantage.

[Purp]

Does anyone have a link to the Naya Hexproof decklist? I have yet to see one, I did however face against one in an IQ a couple weeks ago (I don't think he was a relatively great player). Boros Reckoner is huge is this matchup. With them playing madcap skills I always made sure to never unleash a cackler so he could participate in a double block.

Does anyone have any thought to whether the MB FotF should become a Mizzium Mortars? While I understand it doesn't recur Phoenix, I am wondering if this weekend in paper format will be a big one for cards like Smiter, Frostburn, Fleecemane and Specter.

Also, is it unreasonable to side in 2x BE against 2 color devotion decks? Big Boros(12 non basics maybe some mutas) and BG with mutavaults(8-12 non basics) comes to mind. What about the new UW list(6-10 non basics)?

I am also moving away from BTE/FFS and back to Zealot because this weekend I expect Golgari Charm to be
popular. There is no worse feeling than watching your FFS get charmed.

[poppa_f]

Boros charm is probably the best SB card against U/W, you can survive a Verdict, burn for 4, even the double strike may be relevant if you can pump a satyr or combo it with a pump spell

[F.I.A]

... You know, guys, you can use [card]Titan's Strength[/card] against hexproof creatures...

[FullofGravy]

Yeah, I've been hearing a lot of talk about Golg Charm here.

I've found Wear//Tear backbreaking here (getting Esper with it is the best feeling), so IMO it's a valid choice. Certainly solid to deal with a lifelink cloak.

[ibejaemes]

I just saw a decklist on ML that had Blind Obediences, think it'll be good for sideboard if you have flexible spots? Extort and the tapped opp creature/artifact when entering battlefield looks awesome.

[Mage of hot stuff]

I just saw a decklist on ML that had Blind Obediences, think it'll be good for sideboard if you have flexible spots? Extort and the tapped opp creature/artifact when entering battlefield looks awesome.

I wouldnt be relying on extorting much, depending on how many white mana sources you have. Making their creatures come in tapped is pretty cool though.

[Purp]

here is the list he is talking about:

[deck]
Lands
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
6 Mountain
5 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry

Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Soldier of the Pantheon

Spells
4 Lightning Strike
4 Gods Willing
2 Warleader's Helix
4 Chained to the Rocks
2 Blind Obedience
4 Boros Charm
3 Shock

Planeswalker
3 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard
1 Blind Obedience
2 Wear/Tear
2 Peak Eruption
2 Mindsparker
3 Burning Earth
2 Pithing Needle
3 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

[Helios]

By definition, if you are capable of playing Blind Obedience, you are capable of extorting at least one spell you play per turn.

It actually seems really cute against control, adding an extra point to all of your burn spells. Granted you'd almost certainly rather just have more burn. But it's amusing.

Purp: Thanks!

[Purp]

list for this weekend, going to use Saturday for some pretty heavy testing before I decide the flex spots.

Here are some ideas I am thinking of:

[deck]4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra Phoenix
3 YP$
1 Pyrewild Shaman

3 Chandra

4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock
1 Fotb (debating on making this a mizzium mortar)

2 Chained

11 Mountain
4 Mutavaults
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph[/deck]

[deck]4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra Phoenix
3 YP$
1 Pyrewild Shaman

3 Chandra

4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock
1 Fotb
1 Mizzium Mortar

2 Chained

11 Mountain
3 Mutavaults
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph[/deck]

[deck]4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra Phoenix
3 YP$
1 Pyrewild Shaman

3 Chandra

4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock
1 Fotb
1 Titan's Str

2 Chained

11
Mountain
4 Mutavaults
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph[/deck]

[deck]4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra Phoenix
3 YP$
1 Pyrewild Shaman

2 Chandra

4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock
1 Fotb
2 Titan's Str

2 Chained

12 Mountain
3 Mutavaults
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph[/deck]

[Helios]

tl;dr- You're trying to decide on the exact number of Titan's strength / Chandra / Mutavault.

[Purp]

Precisely. I found looking at decklists helps more than trying to figure it out in my head

[RaidaTheBlade]

Alright, important question.
Given the general overall metagame right now, what method do you think is better for the mono-red versions? BTE/FFS, or Ashley/Pyrewild?

I'm currently leaning more towards Ashley/Pyrewild for the IQ, but BTE/FFS for fnm.
Basically, given all the big boros and white weenie('boros' aggro) that's around, I think the haste/first strike is more valuable, plus the pyrewild can take them by surprise.


Another thing is 21 land 22 land. I got flooded a few too many times on 22, so I've been trying 21, but been hitting some screw. If I go 21, then I have 2 or 3 mortars (2 in bte/ffs, 3 in ash/pyre).
If I go bacak to 22, I'm seriously considering cutting a copy of shock, to have 3 shock, 3 mortars. This would help against big boros, since the 4 hits mouthbreather dragon. It also stops blood baron of viskopa. And it gives me the slim chance of overloading it mainboard vs g/w or mono-u e.e

nSo, I'm currently leaning towards 4 ashley, 2 pyrewild, 3 shock, 3 mortars, and 22 land for the IQ.
The land may change based on what I see at fnm, where I'm gonna be running bte/ffs with 21 land, just to try it out.

[Aodh]

Isn't Titan's Strength just so much better than the shaman in this deck? The extra scry really emphasizes the strengths of this deck, not to mention strength can net you a token, be used defensively, and is cheaper in this mana intensive deck. Scry one now is probably about as powerful as pay one now, don't Scry, pay three later to draw a giant growth post combat.

[notap123]

Isn't Titan's Strength just so much better than the shaman in this deck? The extra scry really emphasizes the strengths of this deck, not to mention strength can net you a token, be used defensively, and is cheaper in this mana intensive deck. Scry one now is probably about as powerful as pay one now, don't Scry, pay three later to draw a giant growth post combat.

Its a hedge for mid to late game. The recursion makes for potential CA as the game progresses.

[RaidaTheBlade]

Pretty much what notap said.
The pyrewild is in there to continue the trend of the card advantage this deck can generate.

One really important difference with the pyrewild though, is it is a creature. We don't tend to use it that way, but it is important in that it means it's not a dead draw.
If you have no creatures out on the field and you draw titan's strength, it does you no real good. Pyrewild however is a 3/1 which trades with a good number of the creatures out there, and can be recurred later and used for its bloodrush.

[magicdownunder]

Just toying with the idea but isn't Guttersnipe really good against MonoU and Gx Devotion?

[RaidaTheBlade]

Why do you not love me MDU? ;P I ask for help and you ignore me ;P

Sarcasm-y, but slightly serious... You are really good at this and I'd greatly appreciate your input.

[Guttler]

Alright, important question.
Given the general overall metagame right now, what method do you think is better for the mono-red versions? BTE/FFS, or Ashley/Pyrewild?

I'm currently leaning more towards Ashley/Pyrewild for the IQ, but BTE/FFS for fnm.
Basically, given all the big boros and white weenie('boros' aggro) that's around, I think the haste/first strike is more valuable, plus the pyrewild can take them by surprise.


Another thing is 21 land 22 land. I got flooded a few too many times on 22, so I've been trying 21, but been hitting some screw

You are correct that Ash Zealot can be a kind of wall against aggro decks, but that is not the reason to play it. Vs the small Wr aggro decks you want to play the control
game and often chumping BTE is a fine play, especially since she can accel out a YP which gives you a huge advantage once you untap with burn. Playing FFS allows you to force in damage against decks that are banking on strong blockers; Polokranos, Arbor Colossus, Nightveil Specter, Desecration Demon, Frostburn Wierd, Gray Merchant, BBoV, etc. Basically, play BTE and FFS if you expect to see decks without a lot of board interaction.

Ash Zealot is better when you play in a control heavy with lots of AoG and Verdict decks, haste is important there and unlike Emily she wont overextend your field. I've been playing Ashley in my list because my local meta favors Esper and UW control and G/x Monsters, Big Boros, and Dega Midrange are something of a rarity.

As for lands, If you're going to play a version that runs BTE/FFS you'll want 22 lands because Mutavault is key for getting battalion triggers. 22 lands is the correct call for even the Ashley red version because you still need to get to 4 mana for
Chandra. I'd only consider dropping the land count if you want to eschew burn in favor of a strait sligh list, but that lacks all the CA and VCA engines of PyroRed.

[magicdownunder]

Alright, important question.
Given the general overall metagame right now, what method do you think is better for the mono-red versions? BTE/FFS, or Ashley/Pyrewild?

I'm currently leaning more towards Ashley/Pyrewild for the IQ, but BTE/FFS for fnm.
Basically, given all the big boros and white weenie('boros' aggro) that's around, I think the haste/first strike is more valuable, plus the pyrewild can take them by surprise.


Another thing is 21 land 22 land. I got flooded a few too many times on 22, so I've been trying 21, but been hitting some screw. If I go 21, then I have 2 or 3 mortars (2 in bte/ffs, 3 in ash/pyre).
If I go bacak to 22, I'm seriously considering cutting a copy of shock, to have 3 shock, 3 mortars. This would help against big
boros, since the 4 hits mouthbreather dragon. It also stops blood baron of viskopa. And it gives me the slim chance of overloading it mainboard vs g/w or mono-u e.e

So, I'm currently leaning towards 4 ashley, 2 pyrewild, 3 shock, 3 mortars, and 22 land for the IQ.
The land may change based on what I see at fnm, where I'm gonna be running bte/ffs with 21 land, just to try it out.

Whoops, I didn't read the thread - I just wanted to type out an idea

I have no idea how large an IQ event is, but I wouldn't take 3x Mortars against a large event knowing full well Esper and UW will be in force.

Also I have your concept in reverse, Ash + Pyrewild for FNM and BtE + FFS for large events (more MonoBlack and MonoU in large events so BtE + FFS will serve you better here).

[zemanjaski]

Bored at work, this is what happens:

[deck]
Creatures
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Planeswalkers
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Enchantments
2 Chained to the Rocks

Burn
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
4 Shock
2 Warleader's Helix

Lands
4 Boros Guildgate
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
6 Mountain
[/deck]

Obviously untested, but this could be a nice line to pick in the meta. You'd also be able to board into Anger of the Gods in the board, and with maindeck Skullcrack, burning out control might be ok. Needs testing, looks fun.

[Pedros]

Zeman if we go burn way, why not play Toil // Trouble? It is the best burn we could play right now.

Played for 4-5 hours on MODO (after finally finishing my study week), am 40 tixes in plus after.

Played version with Ash zealots, 23 lands(4 muta) and 2 chandra and loved it. Problem as always was with flood, however it can happen.

My results after I started to take notes:

Deck Name Win Lost
UG Devo 1 0
Mono Red 6 5
Mono Blue 4 4
Mono Black 11 5
Esper Control 3 1
BW Control 2 0
RG Nelson 1 1
RB Agro 3 0
Big Boros 3 5
Dega Control 3 0
Bg Control 3 2
Wx Wheenie 5 1
Naya Control 1 0
Bant Krupnik 1 0
Naya agro 0 1
BUG Control 2 0
Mono B Agro 1 0
UWR control 0 2
RUG Ramp 1 0
Maze End 1 1
UB Master control 1 1
Junk 3 0
Jund Midrange 1 0
Grixis Control 1 1
GR Devo 3 0
GW Agro 0 1
Bg Agro 0 2
Rg mono red 0 1
UW Control 0 1

61 35

Will have to sort decks, as some of the archetypes are
similar.

Notice 3-0 vs Junk, 5-5 vs Master of Waves based decks (2-1 today) and GX based devotion 7-1 (3-0 today). I think sbing 12 and 14 cards in this matchup works really well.

Only hard sb choice is vs Gxx based control decks (Junk, Jund, Bug) as they play reaper of the wilds, caryatic, voices, oozes, centaur healers etc while also playing a lot of black based removal - so reckoner isnt as good choice as you might think it is. I tend to board as a hybrid - play 50-50 of reckoners and removal, to not overboard.

[zemanjaski]

Great data, ill have a look through it. Great work on your results!

Can you tell me a bit more about Toil // Trouble? It seems ok, not amazing. What am I missing?

[RaidaTheBlade]

Whoops, I didn't read the thread - I just wanted to type out an idea

I have no idea how large an IQ event is, but I wouldn't take 3x Mortars against a large event knowing full well Esper and UW will be in force.

Also I have your concept in reverse, Ash + Pyrewild for FNM and BtE + FFS for large events (more MonoBlack and MonoU in large events so BtE + FFS will serve you better here).

I'm less worried about esper and u/w, since I already have dang good matchups there,
then I am the recent aggro builds and the midrange builz, like white weenie, 'boros' aggro, big boros, and then jund, naya, and golgari.

Looking at the recent top 8s and winning decks of big paper tournies, I'm expecting a lot of that style... Bte/ffs might work better, but I still don't know. Gonna do a lot of testing on that setup pre-fnm...

[magicdownunder]

Great data, ill have a look through it. Great work on your results!

Can you tell me a bit more about Toil // Trouble? It seems ok, not amazing. What am I missing?

Its been champion on MODO by Owen Turtenwald (aka qazwsxedcrfvtgbyhnuj) as a source of CA and huge damage (its does deal upwards to 4+ damage against midrange and control decks) he run a light Black splash (4 shock lands).

I'll rather run Skullcrack (which is what he replaced) but its not 100% horrible.

[magicdownunder]

Zeman if we go burn way, why not play Toil // Trouble? It is the best burn we could play right now.

Played for 4-5 hours on MODO (after finally finishing my study week), am 40 tixes in plus after.

Played version with Ash zealots, 23 lands(4 muta) and 2 chandra and loved it. Problem as always was with flood, however it can happen.

Are you farming 2-man, Swiss or elimination? (I'll recommend Elimination)

Also what did you cut the third Chandra for? Assuming your running the list either Z or myself posted with PyroWhite.

[Keftenk]

Bored at work, this is what happens:

[deck]
Creatures
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Planeswalkers
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Enchantments
2 Chained to the Rocks

Burn
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
4 Shock
2 Warleader's Helix

Lands
4 Boros Guildgate
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
6 Mountain
[/deck]

Obviously untested, but this could be a nice line to pick in the meta. You'd also be able to board into Anger of the Gods in the board, and with maindeck Skullcrack, burning out control might be ok. Needs testing, looks fun.

Wow lol This list is hilarious vs UW Control

[Valdarith]

Ive been brewing something similar in my head for awhile now but I just haven't had the balls to test it. I think it would be very successful in the current meta. Worth a shot for sure. I may try it once modo prices bottom out and I can make some purchases.

[Keftenk]

Just blanked Golgari Midrange with it as well, not that MBC, Golgari, or UB was ever hard for a Pyro list to begin with, but just another notch on the belt..

[Helios]

Z: Moar lands!

Raida: I think you need to play the hell out of one list. Switching back and forth is only going to mess you up.

Whoever is playing 2 Pyrewild: I tested him some and found him hyperbad in multiples. You pretty much can't get two online, ever.

[windstrider]

Nice work, everyone. It's amazing how tuned this deck has become.

I'm headed out to FNM with this. Last few times, there were quite a few Mono U decks running around. So far, that's been my worst matchup. I'm expecting control with some green/white thrown in as well.

[deck]
Lands:23
12 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Creatures:20
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
1 Pyrewild Shaman

Spells:14
2 Chained to the Rocks
3 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
1 Flames of the Firebrand

Planeswalkers: 3
3 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard:15
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Boros Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Skullcrack
4 Boros Reckoner
1 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Rod of Ruin
[/deck]

I could go -1 Mountain for +1 Mutavault, but I really like having 20 red sources for consistency.

[Helios]

Rooting for you windstrider! I played almost the same list last week, -1 Chandra, +1 YP.

[windstrider]

Rooting for you windstrider! I played almost the same list last week, -1 Chandra, +1 YP.

Thank you, my friend.

That is the tension in the deck. Do I want more Chandra or the deck's namesake card? I'm leaning towards Chandra because she's just so good, but Young Pyro is so much fun.

Decisions, decisions.

[F.I.A]

Whoever is playing 2 Pyrewild: I tested him some and found him hyperbad in multiples. You pretty much can't get two online, ever.

Yeah, he's pretty underwhelming, so I have been using [card]Titan's Strength[/card] in his place. In exchange for inability to recur, I get to:

1) Kill some */5 on defense
2) Spawn a 1/1 elemental (And a 4/2 elemental? A sight to behold)
3) Fix my topdeck, or get me a card closer to those cards I sided in (Rod of Ruin? You betcha)

... You guys might have enough of the crap with me singing about TS, but it's something you have to try (Especially if you're running PyroRed, the shell I am testing it in. I suppose Walter White just has too much options to
consider it).

I could go -1 Mountain for +1 Mutavault, but I really like having 20 red sources for consistency.

Better not. There was a few games where I lost due to majority of my lands being Mutavaults instead of mountains. And since you're running Reckoners, let's not get too greedy.

[magicdownunder]

Rooting for you windstrider! I played almost the same list last week, -1 Chandra, +1 YP.

Thank you, my friend.

That is the tension in the deck. Do I want more Chandra or the deck's namesake card? I'm leaning towards Chandra because she's just so good, but Young Pyro is so much fun.

Decisions, decisions.

With less MonoBlack running around -1x YP$ is the correct call (I did the same) he is most likely a turn 3 or 4 play anyways.

[F.I.A]

Actually you can play Pyro as a turn 2 against any deck that won't kill it in response. That excludes red aggro, Big Boros, Esper and MBC.

Yes, Chandra is certainly the better card, but you surely need some creatures to protect her with, and Pyro with his tokens is just ideal of the job.

Edit: @MDU: Of course, you side out pyros in matchups that run Jace, so maybe our approach is different.