[Primer] PyroRed

[Keftenk]

So, based on some testing I've been doing, I've been working on a build to try out at fnm in preperation for the IQ this weekend.

[deck]
Creatures:
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Firefist Striker
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells:
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Shock
2 Mizzium Mortars

Planeswalkers:
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Land:
20 Mountain
1 Mutavault

Sideboard:
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Skullcrack
3 Act of Treason
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Flames of The Firebrand
2 Burning Earth
[/deck]

The biggest change from what I WAS running is switching from ash zealot to bte/ffs. I love Ashley, but I've been having problems with 3-color control/midrange, and G/W aggro.
The switch was
because it gives me more momentum/tempo against the 1for1 control the 3colors (dega, mainly) are so fond of, while ffs can help push through the last little bit of damage. They also help some vs G/W aggro, by helping me race game 1, and also push through more damage.

I also added burning earth into the sideboard, to try and grab a few more free wins against naya, dega, esper, and american.

I've also been contemplating adding in 1 or 2 pyrewilds, though they lose a tiny bit without ash, they are still good. I dunno what I'd pull out though, so ideas on that'd be helpful.


So yeah, there's that. Thoughts, discussion, etc?

How well are you doing against GW with this? I may have to consider playing this as well since I have a dismal rate of actually beating them ;\ What's your SB plans vs them? Reckoners, AoT, and Mizziums in?

[Purp]

21 lands scares me.

[Elricity]

With 33 2 CMC or less spells and BTE helping out, 21 lands mainboard really isn't the issue. It's his postboard when he slams in the rest of his 3-4 cost spells that's more problematic. I would cut something in his side for an extra mutavault there to make the rest smoother.

That or cut as many of the expensive spells for cheaper replacements. Burning earth being the biggest to drop. One of the flames should probably be the 4th shock as well.

[Valdarith]

That's happened to me twice this week. Once in a phantom sealed event. Yep, phantom sealed is srs bsns.

[zemanjaski]

I'm so proud of you guys, you've come so far :')

[Keftenk]

Is there a certain way we should be playing against GW? Or is it just a race, hoping I have the better hand, removing the larger threats?

[Helios]

Is there a certain way we should be playing against GW? Or is it just a race, hoping I have the better hand, removing the larger threats?

There's a primer for that I believe it is in the matchup guide, but it has been discussed at length in the thread as well.

[zemanjaski]

You play as control vs. GW. See the works mentioned by Helios, I've covered the matchup in great detail already.

[Link]

to be honest I feel like Ash Zealot is better against G/W than BTE and FFS.

the former pushes through soldier, selescharm, x/2 experiment ones, wurms (with burn), etc.

BTE+FFS is nice to have explosvie starts, but both cards are just HIIGHLY outclassed by their shit, and its not like they fold to FFS because of flash creatures/seles charm.

also if you're on the fast plan ash zealot will get in some guaranteed damage on the play where you can finish them with phoenixes, whereas BTE+FFS take "setting up" to push through damage through, and if both your hands are on the table theres is gonna be much scarier (this is if you're not on the 'control long game' game plan like Z suggests which I also suggest. but I also understand it can be pretty scary to try and play a long game against a deck with trostani, wurm tokens, etc. so going under them I think Ash Zealot deserves a nod).

[zemanjaski]

Yeah Zealot is much better. Again, I'm in BTE because I'm trying to beat MBC and Esper; GW isn't a deck online (because it's completely terrible).

[Helios]

People STILL play it IRL too, and every time I lost to it I die a little inside.

[FullofGravy]

G/W is awful, I tested it for approximately a day before laughing at the manabase and selling the cards.

Pretty sure there's going to be enough green midrange to be on Zealot/Pyrewild this weekend, I think.

[magicdownunder]

People STILL play it IRL too, and every time I lost to it I die a little inside.

I don't understand why people still play GW when you can just play BWG and just toss all the best cards in the format into your 75 and proceed to lol at everyone (except when your manabase fails you).

p.s. By warned Aura Hexproof is a deck... (>1% because it can't beat Esper or Monoblack) but people play it to attack the Midrange decks.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Yeah Zealot is much better. Again, I'm in BTE because I'm trying to beat MBC and Esper; GW isn't a deck online (because it's completely terrible).

I prefer ash zealot against esper.

[magicdownunder]

Yeah Zealot is much better. Again, I'm in BTE because I'm trying to beat MBC and Esper; GW isn't a deck online (because it's completely terrible).

I prefer ash zealot against esper.

Agreed, I prefer BtE vs B/x midrange and small aggro decks. (MBD isn't a control deck, is it?)

Ash is better for Control and G/x or R/x midrange/ramp

[Purp]

MDU, Zem or anyone playing 4 mutas in walter white. Have you had trouble post board landing reckoner?

[magicdownunder]

MDU, Zem or anyone playing 4 mutas in walter white. Have you had trouble post board landing reckoner?

I'm running 19 Red Sources with 4 Vaults and I can almost never cast reckoner on T3, however I don't really think you want to cast him on T3 anyways.

Reckoner is best played when the Opp. has at least 2 creatures online.

[FullofGravy]

yeah you want to be firebirding or removaing something for your 1/2 to get through I feel.

[Valdarith]

There's a reason why when MJ was trying GW out he affectionately called the deck GW trash.

[FullofGravy]

I remember it seming like most game losses came from failure to be able to cast Advent.

Like positive winrates but some those were people misplaying against Voice etc.

[Valdarith]

There's just so many spells in the deck that require green and white that the manabase is really shaky. The best way for the deck to be successful is to go heavier green so it's not so down the middle on colors. But even then the deck is so noninteractive that it's just not what you want to be doing right now.

[Lightning_Dolt]

MDU, Zem or anyone playing 4 mutas in walter white. Have you had trouble post board landing reckoner?

I'm running 19 Red Sources with 4 Vaults and I can almost never cast reckoner on T3, however I don't really think you want to cast him on T3 anyways.

Reckoner is best played when the Opp. has at least 2 creatures online.

So greedy! Does it seem to be working ok?

[LP, of the Fires]

People play GW because other people play poorly vs. GW. The deck does powerful things and has LOTS of tricks at it's disposal while being formidable when the mana works, but when you know how the deck operates, you learn to pick your spots, drag the game out, and eventually they can't win because you've stablized.

As the red mage, this means just killing everything they play and not walking into combat tricks unawares(wurm, charm, rootborn), as a midrange or control player, this means dragging the game out to turn 9 and then laugh at them as they can't do anything anymore.

I get the appeal of the deck, I really do. Soldier of the Pantheon is the best one-drop in standard and an amazing card. The creatures are laughably undercosted. Flash 5/5 tramplers. "easy" RDW matchup. Rootborn defenses(this card is actually really good). Unfortunately, I don't like relying on my opponents not knowing how to attack
my deck, and I want a less shaky manabase.

RE: Reckoner with 19 mountains. I don't ever cast my reckoner unless my opponent has dudes on board if I can help it and I'm killing all there dudes with my burn anyways so...it usually doesn't matter if I can't cast him till turn 5 or later so long as I'm doing something with my mana during that time. I played pyro red for a couple months with 18/19 mountain and reckoners in the board and never had noticeable issues casting my reckoners so there you go.

[zemanjaski]

You want at least 1 opposing creature out when you play your Reckoners; on a blank field you have to redirect upstairs which sucks.

[vundo]

It's not really a relevant deck but I've played against a few UWR Control decks and Reckoner is pretty good against them.

I think we've passed this discussion already but G/W has been a non-issue for me. You can easily control them by killing all their guys and play around combat tricks. I usually race the 5/5 wurm, falter it, or CttR it. The m/u becomes laughable if you get a YP$ hand.

[LP, of the Fires]

Don't know if I've asked this, but where do you play at Vudno?

[Lightning_Dolt]

I've played against it too... Burning Earth FTW.

[RaidaTheBlade]

I haven't had a chance to test the deck vs G/W or the 3-color control-midranges that have been giving me issue, yet. I was gonna do that during fnm e.e
And yes, the sideboard plan was -4 cackler, -4 satyr, +3 reckoner, +3 aot, +2 mortars. And maybe some shocks(diesnt hit much of their stuff) for skullcracks to stop some uc lifegain if i end up needing to, but I shouldn't. Fotf is also a potential option.

A lot of what you guys are saying makes sense, which makes me sad, since bte was there to get help against 1for1 removal, and ffs was the to get around that one massive creature of G/W's (specially game one e.e)

So if bte/ffs is just not as good vs those two decks, should I just go back to the zealot/pyrewild plan?

I went down to 21 lands because there are so many low cost guys, and I honestly kept finding myself running out of steam, and getting mana-flooded slightly. Also chandra's 0 hitting a mountain when
you have only mountains in your hand hurts e.e
I also used to run rdw last standerd with 21 lands, and never had too many problems hitting enough for reckoner/hellrider(hellrider was 4cmc, like BE), so I'm not too worried about that.
Using the extra slot from that, if I went back to zealot/pyrewild, i'd drop the bte's and ffs's, and add 4 ashleys, 2 pyrewilds, 1 shock, and 1 mizzium mortar(cause this card is so useful mainboard vs a lot of stuff. Like G/W )

Also, sidenote, i prefer ash vs esper, if just for the haste. The ability to throw out lots of guys is great vs mono-b, but esper had field wipes lol... I actually tend to find myself holding back slightly with bte against them.
For instance, i had 2 bte and a ffs in my hand, normally i'd throw out all three turn 2, but against epser I actually kept back 1 bte to use after the verdict. Also keeps sphere from being a 2-for-1

[Khaospawn]

Yup, Oxford, MS. Home of all things good in the world. Except Khaos. And GSM employment protection. And alcohol shipping laws. And...wait.

At least it's a beautiful place.

You know what'd make it a better place?

A little bit of Khaos.

[F.I.A]

I have some successes beating down an advent wurm with Titan's Strength.

You certainly wants to play control against GW. An instant removal will save you a lot of trouble like preventing a Unflinching Courage to be played. They don't run Nylea, God of the Hunt and Arbor Colossus, so both pyro and phoenix help a lot against them.

[warwizard87]

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... yromaster/

Constructive comments in the comments welcome.

I was getting ready to post I think someone snipped your deck then I read the article and was LIKE OMG YAY. great article bro, know im late to the party. but well done.

[magicdownunder]

@Helios, have you tested 1x StormBreath Dragon with 23 lands yet? I'm looking for some new tech to beat the new UW. (I know 2x can be a bit much)

[Guttler]

@Helios, have you tested 1x StormBreath Dragon with 23 lands yet? I'm looking for some new tech to beat the new UW. (I know 2x can be a bit much)

I started playing 1 in my board this week with only 22 lands, but the last tournament I played in paired me on the other side of the top 8 bracket from the UW decks so I haven't given the card it's dues. Maybe I'm a little biased/greedy with just 22 lands, but I'm known for being the guy that always floods out.

In theory, the UW match up will be either you blow them out early or they wrath successfully and durdle until they can find a win condition. If the later case happens you're very likely to see 5 lands and failing to see 5 lands in that case means you've drawn gas off the
top so they have to answer that stuff. As a 1 of board card you probably don't want to try and aggressively mulligan for it considering that they can counterspell it. You'll want to be a bit more careful with your mutavaults in that matchup too.

I have my own sideboard conundrum. I've been running 2 Flames of the Firebrand (1 maindeck / 1 sideboard) I absolutely love the card, but should I consider cutting the AB one in favor of Warleader's Helix? In theory they are both good in the aggro match up with Warleader's Helix being good against midrange decks. The downside is that at 4 cmc it doesn't let me answer x/3's like Nightveil Specter as well and doesn't 2 for 1 against aggro or mono U dev.

[Pedros]

I think we should have more results noted now, that there is no daily events and premier to look what is popular.

[poppa_f]

for UW, would you say a good strategy is to side in a load of skullcracks and just try to steam-roller them before they can stabilize? I'm thinking if they miss the life from the first Sphinx then they probably die the next turn if you have any creatures or burn left in play

[magicdownunder]

for UW, would you say a good strategy is to side in a load of skullcracks and just try to steam-roller them before they can stabilize? I'm thinking if they miss the life from the first Sphinx then they probably die the next turn if you have any creatures or burn left in play

That is your goal, but keep in mind the newer version of UW runs Elixir of Immortality MD, with other horrible cards like Fiendslayer Paladin, Trading Post and/or Blind Obedience from the side.

Celestial Flare also makes it hard to just bank on Proc white creatures to take the game as well.

Keep in mind I still think
its in our favor but its much harder then it use to be.

[FullofGravy]

resolving a Chandra and pushing to ultimate can also be real given they only have D Sphere to answer her.

[RaidaTheBlade]

for UW, would you say a good strategy is to side in a load of skullcracks and just try to steam-roller them before they can stabilize? I'm thinking if they miss the life from the first Sphinx then they probably die the next turn if you have any creatures or burn left in play

That is your goal, but keep in mind the newer version of UW runs Elixir of Immortality MD, with other horrible cards like Fiendslayer Paladin, Trading Post and/or Blind Obedience from the
side.

Celestial Flare also makes it hard to just bank on Proc white creatures to take the game as well.

Keep in mind I still think its in our favor but its much harder then it use to be.

How prevalent would you say this brand of U/W is getting? Do you think it should be a concern while deckbuilding? Or what about just fiendslayer in general?

I guess what I'm getting at is, would it be a better call to go back to ash zealot/pyrewild, with that being a thing? Zealot trades and pyrewild enables pretty much anything else (but satyr, curse you 1 toughness!) to trade with it.

[poppa_f]

Coordinated assault would probably get you a trade (and maybe an extra bonus damage). Maybe something to consider as a sideboard option as it would do some work against other fast aggro decks as well

[FullofGravy]

Assault is OK but I'd rather spend a slot on a more powerful card with wider applications than it.