[SCD]Dragon's Mantle

[zemanjaski]

Want to get some discussion going, as I think we may have been too quick to dismiss it as 'not Stonewright, so not good'.

[card]Dragon's Mantle[/card]

Lets brainstorm first. What:
- interactions do you like?
- what sort of deck do you like it in?
- what matchups might you like it for?

Personally, I'm interested on enchanting Ash Zealot or Chandra's Phoenix. I'm not a big fan of it with the heroic red creatures.

I'm not sure if I like it in a low land count deck (emphasis on cantrip) or a high land count deck (emphasis on mana sink).

I like the card against GW and UW Control, so it might not be well positioned now.

[DocLawless]

I have played it. Not enough to pass judgement yet, but I'm working on it.

It's always been my understanding that, in Sligh, the more optimally you spend mana the better off you are. So if I have 1 or more mana per turn going unused, and I can turn that mana into damage or damage potential, then I should do that. The issue I keep running into is that it competes for slots with burn spells, which are strictly better than combat tricks because burn is indiscriminate removal and can go directly upstairs. But damage over time, firebreathing can potentially deal out more damage than a Strike or a Mortars (the potential to Overload a Mortars aside).

I like it vs. control. I can see it's uses vs. midrange, but they're more limited. Versus aggro I'd rather have the burn.

It replaces itself, which coupled with Scry can be useful. In a deck full of lands, that utility is perhaps more limited. Send two Mountains to the
bottom, then draw... a Mountain. Sounds like worst case scenario, but if I had a dollar for every time that's actually happened I'd have a 4th Stormbreath Dragon by now.

[Pyreheart Bezerra]

Seems like we would want it in the same decks we are trying Pyrewild Shaman in. Ashley and the Phoenix are the sexiest targets for obvious reasons. The cantrip is why we are giving the card the time of day. I am liking that interaction quite a bit, as long as the creature sticks. So its a cantrip that we have to play on our opponents terms. This means to me that it needs to be relegated in the side board for non-doom blade decks. Brought in for the creature matchup or decks that use sorcery speed spells as their main removal spells.

[Link]

I like it in the all in deck with loyalist and heroic stuff, because that deck floods pretty hard and its pretty effective with 1st strike and trample.


I like it against jace because it lets you answer him without overextending so its pretty house in that MU. Also against G/W when done safely... so I'm thinking maybe a SB slot?

The main issue is like doc said... sltos. SB slots are jammed.... MB is pretty streamlined for most decks... meh. 1 or 2 of in those flex spots we have that are filled by shock/fotf/?

[zemanjaski]

Yeah Stonewright was 2 main, 2 board. I think you would want something similar.

[F.I.A]

I suppose you can play this in a decklist that does not run 4 Mutavault. Muta is already a good manasink that deals 2 damage for [mana]2[/mana], so I don't really see how we can support another one.

[Yarpus]

It's a bad card. And when I say it (if I'm right) then it's really, really bad because I love most of janky cards.
The reason why this card is bad is: you can't change it's target.
The whole deal with Stonewright was turning any creature you currently have or will come onto field into a serious threat. Many games against control were won just because you were pairing Stonewright with Zealot - they kill Zealot, then you pair it with Cackler, they kill Cackler then you pair it with another Zealot they don't have removal and end up being destroyed.
Mantle doesn't allow you to do that. Cantripping in exchnge doesn't mean much.
Also, you can't cast it pre-emptively. Stonewrigh was our third 1CMC drop. This is by no means 1CMC drop as you need creature to cast it - which also creates lots of problems in matchups when it's supposed to be good (control's verdicting, GR midrange using Mizzium Mortars). It's easy to
render it useless in your hand.

Pyrewild on the other hand has it all:
- you can use it to target few creatures during the course of game
- has immediate impact, T2 +3/+1 instead of T2 +1/0.
- element of surprise
- can be used even while the field is empty (he's just 3/1 but that's better than empty card in hand that you can't even use to cantrip)

[windstrider]

FWIW, I like the idea of Dragon Mantle but not the execution. I'd rather have Pyrewild Shaman since it seems like a better use of resources. I also like the versatility of Shaman since it can also be cast as a creature, adding three power to the board on its own.

Mantle Pros:
Costs 1 mana
Repeatable uses on the same creature
Boost scales with more mana as the game goes on
Replaces itself through draw
Adds to Devotion count in decks that want that effect

Mantle Cons:
Vulnerable to being countered
Creature can be removed, resulting in 2-for-1 situation
Can be used on only one creature
Bad by itself
No toughness boost

Shaman Pros:
Good return on the bloodrush effect, 2 mana for +3/+1 is good use of mana
Bloodrush is not vulnerable to counterspells
Can be cast as a creature
Can be recurred from graveyard after combat
damage to player
Can be used on different creatures
Toughness boost is good, allowing creatures to survive (e.g., Phoenix into Spectre)

Shaman Cons:
Costs 2 for the boost
Boost does not scale with additional mana (though it can be recurred multiple times)
Recur cost of 3 can be fairly steep
Requires combat damage to recur it to hand
Creature is vulnerable to removal

[DocLawless]

I put two Dragon Mantles in my sideboard this evening to examine in what matches I would rather have them instead of something I'm running main deck. The answer, after 4 rounds, is I never do.

That said, my matches were Dega, Boros, Dega again, and Boros again. So all I really learned is that I don't want Mantle in either of those matches. Will try again on Monday at the casual Standard tournament. Maybe I'll get a wider variety of decks to play against.

[LP, of the Fires]

I like Dragon Mantle in a low land count deck. In a mid to high land count deck, your sacrificing threat denstity for power. A deck with powerful cards shouldn't need the affect of dragons mantle I don't think?

How do you lose with these midrange/big mana decks? Aside from flood/screw which happens to every deck you lose too:
-getting outtempod from them answering your threats
-Drawing all removal, no threats(less of an issue in a red midrange list)
-Getting outclassed

Using past templates, dragons mantle exacerbates all of those weaknesses not counting the last one(ash zealout with DM outclasses everything in combat without protection).

In small ball red, I like the idea of mantle a lot. You basically want to play a critical mass of bad cards and mantle functions as a form of enabler while also making your bad cards resemble good cards. Also, how do you lose with small red?

-flooding
-outclassed early
-
cheap sweepers.

Mantle helps solve the first 2 holes and digs you out of the third hole. I like mantle in small red.

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

I'll try this as a a 1-of in the Titan's Strength/Pyrewild slot in my Pyrowhite list. I might put a second copy in the board if I can find room. I'll let y'all know what I think of it. It seems really good against control and green-based decks. It might be the tech to give us the edge over U/W control which is the deck of the week/month right now.
Edit: There is also the Gitaxian Probe-type effect where it essentially lets you run a 58 or 59-card deck, improving your consistency.