The Fate of Zombie Gutter

[ExarionUniverse1]

Whose side are you on Onar

Honestly , my own.

Now if you are talking about MTGS or here , I am oddly neutral toward Thrillo or Pendlum.


Just trying to joke around.

[Yannaria]

the internet is srs bsns onar

[ExarionUniverse1]

the internet is srs bsns onar

Your telling a programmer this?


I know , I have made 8 sites before this one , just because I trusted my business admins

[Kaitscralt]

Whose side are you on Onar

Honestly , my own.

Now if you are talking about MTGS or here , I am oddly neutral toward Thrillo or Pendlum.


Just trying to joke around.

I'm just joking around with you too.

[Yannaria]

the internet is srs bsns onar

Your telling a programmer this?


I know , I have made 8 sites before this one , just because I trusted my business admins

do you guys have sarcasm in russia?

[ExarionUniverse1]

the internet is srs bsns onar

Your telling a programmer this?


I know , I have made 8 sites before this one , just because I trusted my business admins

do you guys have sarcasm in russia?

You excel in your way , thats why I can't differentiate

[FaheyUSMC]

Whose side are you on Onar

"Side? I am on nobody's side, because nobody is on my side, little hobbits! Hurrumph!"

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

filthy little buggers

[Kaitscralt]

Whose side are you on Onar

"Side? I am on nobody's side, because nobody is on my side, little hobbits! Hurrumph!"

treemo

[Col. Khaddafi]

The last few months, this website has spent a great deal of its time deriding the maturity, effectiveness, and communication skills of the staff on Salve, and those are obviously valid accusations, thanks to Mr. Leak. But now you're thinking that the staff is mature, effective, and, um, communicable enough to simply hand over the Gutter without thinking about the (also entirely valid) possibility that it could just fuck up your code enough to, oh, I don't know, find out the identity of Mr. Leak?
It just doesn't make any sense: the staff raped you in May, and then again in September, and now you're just going to assume that they're not going to rape you again? What, because you've proven that you can rape them right back? Gals is a fool for thinking
that the escalation stops if he just hands over your Precious, and you're fools for thinking that the staff doesn't want revenge.

Come now Pendulum, I think you are blowing things out of proportion because:

1) Even if we get the SQL dumps they are in vbulletin format, and they need conversion to phpbb3 format.

2) When you manage a big site, you cannot afford to do mistakes like those you suggest and put malicious code just like that. Those guys at MTGS run a "legitimate" op, and they are not a bunch of criminals trying to steal CC codes or something. The odds of they succeeding in getting a backend access are slim because they don't know how I am going to handle those dumps, and the odds of this blowing in their hands would be too big. Thats what can shoot sites down.

3) iridium cannot afford having more drama (although that banning of our community account, and trying to conceal it through not putting it in the banned members thread was another dumb move by them),
because this affair cost them already:
a) the deal with Curse, which won't go forward for a long time, and if it does, it will mean the de-staffing of most of them;
b) The loss of 1/2 the WCT activity since Viricide was replaced by Teia, Frox and Senori;
c) One clan that moved to facebook due to the draconian application of rules (the NYC Knights); another Clan that is a zombie of its former self and who has not met his members quota for months, while the clans mods whistle and pretend not to notice so they don't have to retire it (The Called);
d) Mafia took a big hit with the banning of half its members (Nai understood this and cleverly tried to throw the forum a bone bringing it to front in the forum list).
e) Lord Voldemorts baby which was supposed to be The Gutter's replacement (the speakeasy) is moribund
f) well, The Gutter obv.
g) Its fairly evident to everyone and their dog that Hannes doesn't give a fuck about his site.

4) iridium cannot rape anyone around here. We do not live on a
concentration camp anymore

5) Not having the sql dumps yet is a mixture of staff's incompetence, Hannes apathy, and maybe some grudges. It doesn't hurt asking for them, its not like something dramatic is occurring because they didn't sent them. We want them for having a little piece of our history, if we don't get them... well, I have the html's of tbgte and the most important threads back to 2005. What do you think I was doing for a whole month with the assistance of the Battles account that Clock King gave me? I was saving the Gutter's history and preparing a new site, because I knew already what had been set in motion by a morally corrupt administration.

[Col. Khaddafi]

tl;dr: this "drama" is something on the sidetracks really. I mean, part of the staff at MTGS may just believe this is just some giant troll attempt, and they are in their right to believe whatever they wish for, but the thing is that the major things that are taking place are not actually the hypothetical porting of some hidden section of a magic forum. Instead, we are working hard with improving the forums structure and software, I have recently given full backend access to GR who is coding some serious javascript for deck tags and other nice things. We are preparing some very nice surprises for the end year, and there will be a lot to come soon.

Actually, the situation of MTGS as the main site is less than comfortable because it has an absent and apathetic owner, and an administration that carries a heavy baggage of mistakes which have already cost dearly to the site (as the value loss of MTGS can attest), plus the
fact that the site has an increasingly bad reputation over the greater MTG internet community (and the recent developments have been far from swaying those who think the site and its management are nothing but a big joke). We, as the challengers, don't have such a big burden, because we are getting a fresh start, and we are avoiding making the same mistakes that are ultimately costing so much to MTGS, so any "battle" fought on us is a losing one. Best approach would be to simply ignore our existence if I was on the "other side". What have we to lose? We don't want to have a meteoric start. We just aim for a steady growth that will lay the foundations of a successful site. I am not hoping to have something "big" in a year or two, and its allright really, the community around here is already awesome and tight knight like this, and this is the biggest gift that an internet forum can bring, which is to foster friendship and camaraderie.

Really, some people at MTGS might be
blinded into thinking there is some full blown war raging on (as Kaitscralt put it, "Forums are Life" amirite?), but for me this is just a big bag of lulz that gives me some good laughs in the intervals I am taking from fine-tuning and improving this site.

[Second Harkius]

good use of the word 'moribund'

[Shalako]

If it messes with their site too much it could affect the transferred files here, especially the hyperlinks, for one thing.

Whatever, though, personally I think you guys are stone cold crazy to go asking for unfiltered SQL files from the people you just bent over the barrel in the first place, so it's not like my opinion carries any weight.

We didn't bend them over the barrel.

It's not like we were negotiating with them and then lied to them for MONTHS.

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

Just love through all the major mistakes one site has this one has been learning from.

[iamabadman]

learn from the past

[FaheyUSMC]

This entire debacle boils down to one word.

Trust.

The people who legitimately care about Sally have no trust in the staff and the administration. Because of this fact, the staff have no trust in anyone on the forums. This is obvious in the way they conduct business, and with the very noticeable way they say one thing in public, then do another (case in point: banning the MTGC name because N_S made it).

The staff wants people to trust them. Nai, Megs, and Galspanic have tried. ExpiredRascals doesn't give a shit. That has been obvious from day 1. You have the controversial moderators from Sally creating accounts on here, partly to cause more problems ("answering questions asked of them") and berate us, and yet they can't even keep their own house in order.

I said it once, and I'll say it again. Sally has become MTGNews.
Senori can say all the bullshit about it not even being close to true, but trust was an issue on both sites, and history repeats itself.

[Second Harkius]

[Kaitscralt]

The difference is that this time there are enough mindless Rumor Mill zombies for it not to matter.

[Thrillho]

what matters in metrics is quantity over quality, but also that quality breeds quantity.

for the time being, i would rather establish a quality operation that attracts new members than have 600 people jumping ship to post "first" and "wow hot a what magic card"

while those types are an inevitable segment of growth, i want a stronger signal than mtgs has had over its lifetime.

[Neo Metal Sonic]

what matters in metrics is quantity over quality, but also that quality breeds quantity.

for the time being, i would rather establish a quality operation that attracts new members than have 600 people jumping ship to post "first" and "wow hot a what magic card"

while those types are an inevitable segment of growth, i want a stronger signal than mtgs has had over its lifetime.

I support it 100%. It is horrible to go to mtgs and find 438758927 posts in a spoiler topic with just "this card is crap" or "wow this is good". I think: "if you don't have anything good or useful to say, don't post" (that's why I'm just a lurker, lol).

I have hope in MTGC, to bring quality over quantity.
I like the way you guys think.

And I guess I went offtopic. Sorry.

[Col. Khaddafi]

And I guess I went offtopic. Sorry.

Hehe its OK really, I never understood why people would get so bothered about conversation going offtopic back at MTGS. Here people can chat about what they want, and if things go really offtopic, then a mod can just simply split the thread into two new ones. Doing this "organically" (saproling style) is not a big fuss (like for the Advice from iridium split thread), and we don't need to bother people, asking them to remain offtopic.

I think our motto is that the best moderation is the one that makes itself unnoticed.

[( G_R )]

I guess some people have MTGS-induced posting traumas. Come heal with us.

[voltan]

they aint doing it. plain and simple.

This probably doesn't count for much, since it's already been said, but anyway. Only Hannes can provide the SQL dumps.
Everyone on staff wants to give you the Gutter's posts. So yes, we are going to do it, as soon as we actually can (i.e. Hannes gets online and does it).
You don't have to believe me on this, since GR was on staff and he can confirm that we're not bullshitting you. We want you to have what's rightfully yours and you guys made the Gutter, so it's only fair, IMO, that you should be the ones to keep its records.
It's not like I can do much at this point, but I confirm what I have said on prior ocasions: I will do anything in my power to get you those SQL Dumps. And I don't even
have to do anything, since all of the iridium shares my resolve on this subject.

[Checkbox]

oh shit, forgot you were staff

[Yannaria]

you're confusing him and votan. he's totally not voltan

[Blackhound]

Find it slightly ironic at the timing a certain someone has just been unbanned.

[Col. Khaddafi]

He was prolly unbanned for making the last Zombie Gutter post

[jonnyjonski]

He was prolly unbanned for making the last Zombie Gutter post

That's the dumbest thing I've seen so far from all of the dumbness that's occurred on sally over the past year.

[iamabadman]

He was prolly unbanned for making the last Zombie Gutter post

That's the dumbest thing I've seen so far from all of the dumbness that's occurred on sally over the past year.

welcome to the world.

[Blackhound]

What did he post out of interest ?

[Shalako]

Well he was Gutterbanned and there are no more Gutter Mods.

So...Unless the staff reinstated him as a Gutter Member while denying everyone else that privilege...

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

We should be able to see once the SQL dumps come... oh wait...

[iamabadman]

))<>((

[iamabadman]

that sums up the whole thing dump shit. back and forth foreveeeeer

[Blackhound]

I swear KCW is trying to get himself banned again, currently he is arguing with Nai in CI.

[Pendulum]

See, 'cuz they can't! Have you seen Scream 4?

---

The movie is just a huge piece of crap, but the one actual worthwhile part of the whole mess is the description of 'meta' in horror movies: they explain that back when the first Scream movie came out, and when what became known as the 'slasher' movie in general first became popular, the easiest way to become a victim was to be in some way different than the target audience (i.e. white males); blacks, gays, and anyone who didn't fit into a very narrow definition of normalcy was considered fair game for death. Now, however, as they describe in the movie, it's come full circle: not only has Political Correctness taken full effect, but above and beyond that your average audience goer simply values diversity (i.e. non-white males) so the best way to survive a horror movie is to be different! A
black/hispanic gay woman (for example) is therefore practically immortal.... and here's the kicker:
they would know it.

[Blackhound]

So it's come to this. My first infraction appeal post-unbanning. Just like old times, huh? I don't mean that about you specifically. You weren't around last time. A lot has changed. I'm sure you realize that.

ExpiredRascals, what do you feel? Are you comfortable? Is your monitor well-adjusted to avoid neck and eye strain when you read this post? Is your chair properly calibrated to allow for a natural sitting position? You should be relaxed when reading this post. I want only the best for you. Perhaps you prefer reading on a laptop, with the fans whirring inside their plastic prisons, the computer itself sitting on the table at some cafe (or, heaven forbid, Starbucks) so that you can sip a nice coffee and ponder the passer-by as you moderate your forum. Some people prefer iPads or similar touch-based tablet computers, so they can recline on the sofa or even lay down in bed to read over their chosen material. Is the text
the appropriate size? That can be adjusted. It's in the settings and available via scroll wheel, if you're on a traditional dekstop or laptop, and via touch (isn't everything available via touch?) on iPads. Maybe you're even on your phone, skimming through the forums on your way to work. I hope you're not driving while doing that. It would be unsafe.

I wouldn't want you to be uncomfortable. If I were to instruct you, in this post, to turn the sides of your mouth down and growl animalistically, that would be "deliberately provoking a hostile reaction from other users," which is the site's definition of trolling. I would never want to do this. I want only the best for you, ExpiredRascals, and I hope that if your reaction to me is hostile, I hope you know that I sincerely was not deliberately provoking you. So, when we get to the real meat of the issue at hand here, I want us to discuss this in a calm, rational, cordial manner.

First, that "unreadable text" business. Smaller
text is certainly readable. If size one text is "unreadable," then I would advise it be removed from the options of text (since it would serve no purpose other than to receive infractions, which no one wants). Custom title text and "location" text are both smaller than post text, yet are certainly readable.

You claim that, because I was infracted for unreadable text SIX YEARS ago, that is still considered on file, and therefore enforced. Now, while I do remember receiving this infraction SIX YEARS ago, that's mostly because a) it was one of the three used as reasoning behind banning me, b) it was, at the time, remarkably weak, even for an MTGS infraction (and there is some stiff competition in the ol' Weak MTGS Infractions arena, as I'm sure you know), c) Azrael noted himself that b) was the case, and as such disregarded it as legitimate, meaning that I didn't pay attention to the fact that I got an unreadable text warning SIX YEARS ago because admins didn't even think that it
should have been an infraction in the first place, d) the rules have changed so tremendously since I received that infraction SIX YEARS ago that regarding an infraction I received then as some sort of "precedent" would lead to a whole host of other interpretations and other such consequences (eg since my infractions from SIX YEARS ago are still "on the books" so to speak can I also take as an implication the opposite, that anything I did not receive as an infraction was itself not against the rules and therefore alright to post, and if so could I receive this in writing and perhaps with some sort of time allotment with which I may safely take a break from my mundane day job and go out into the street to celebrate because hoo boy were some of those uninfracted posts great and I could really use some arguments against similar ones being infracted), basically like if you look at the rules that were in place SIX YEARS ago and compare them to the present day eg the ones that I am certainly
following to the letter with each and every post I make, you will find that they bear little resemblance other than in being extremely long and complex and with lots of specifics and even more generalities, and therefore the only real conclusion we can draw from an infraction I received SIX YEARS ago if we look at a)-d) in their sum total is the fact that I got a lot of infractions then, and any more would be a huge reach and basically I'd be better off ignoring them entirely because well let's add an e) here, the people enforcing the rules are so different than the ones from 2006 (both in attitude and in there not being any people at all, that I can see, who were mods/admins back then that still are at this present day except maybe Annorax and I don't even think he was an admin by the time I got banned), which is a separate issue from the rules themselves being different (because rules systems themselves are essentially meaningless other than as a reference, and what really matters is enforcement eg
local areas that have decriminalized certain drugs depsite them being illegal, or certain entirely philosophically unrelated local areas that have effectively criminalized through enforcement eg being a young male minority), and the fact that Moderator X way back when thought that a certain thing fell under a punishable category tells us approximately cream-cheese-and-lox-bagel about what Moderator Y in the present day thinks about those good ol' trolling rules and their enforcement.

Now, I know your response will be something along the lines of "well, even if the text is fully readable, the usage of it is still Trolling and Trolling is bad, and your post was clearly Trolling since it used the same font as Harkius." That's a hypothetical paraphrase, right there, of you. If that's not accurate, please issue a correction. I'm sure you might even concede that size uno TNR might be a-ok with the mods under any other circumstance. I attempted to bring up the issue with you that my post did not
seem to fall under any sort of published definition of "trolling," and you say that it's hard to pin down. Does this mean that you can basically infract any post as trolling? Because if that one is, then woo boy have we got a trolling epidemic on our hands. Posting in a different font is not me trying to provoke Harkius, it's poking some gentle fun at his style. It's like a small kid putting on his little suit and starting a speech to his teacher and classmates and assorted classroom pets with "my fellow Americans." It was harmless. It is innocuous. It provoked nothing, because using a different font says nothing about anything because it's just a font.

I used to post people's fonts/colors back at them my first time around, too. So did former admin Goblinboy. So did then-moderator Kijin. If you're going to throw precedent at me, then you also have to see that I was posting something previously allowed.

Also, I consider you calling my posts "discourteous" and "
antisocial" personally harmful and trolling. I would like you to infract yourself.

Also, the new admin Bouillabaisse said that a previous post of mine was passive-aggressive. I would like you to infract him. If not, then I would like permission to call people passive-aggressive.

I'm picking my nose right now.

LOVE
KCW

[Pendulum]

Spring is when the bears wake up.

[iamabadman]

bears live in caves

[ExarionUniverse1]

So it's come to this. My first infraction appeal post-unbanning. Just like old times, huh? I don't mean that about you specifically. You weren't around last time. A lot has changed. I'm sure you realize that.

ExpiredRascals, what do you feel? Are you comfortable? Is your monitor well-adjusted to avoid neck and eye strain when you read this post? Is your chair properly calibrated to allow for a natural sitting position? You should be relaxed when reading this post. I want only the best for you. Perhaps you prefer reading on a laptop, with the fans whirring inside their plastic prisons, the computer itself sitting on the table at some cafe (or, heaven forbid, Starbucks) so that you can sip a nice coffee and ponder the passer-by as you moderate your forum.
Some people prefer iPads or similar touch-based tablet computers, so they can recline on the sofa or even lay down in bed to read over their chosen material. Is the text the appropriate size? That can be adjusted. It's in the settings and available via scroll wheel, if you're on a traditional dekstop or laptop, and via touch (isn't everything available via touch?) on iPads. Maybe you're even on your phone, skimming through the forums on your way to work. I hope you're not driving while doing that. It would be unsafe.

I wouldn't want you to be uncomfortable. If I were to instruct you, in this post, to turn the sides of your mouth down and growl animalistically, that would be "deliberately provoking a hostile reaction from other users," which is the site's definition of trolling. I would never want to do this. I want only the best for you, ExpiredRascals, and I hope that if your reaction to me is hostile, I hope you know that I sincerely was not deliberately provoking you. So, when we get
to the real meat of the issue at hand here, I want us to discuss this in a calm, rational, cordial manner.

First, that "unreadable text" business. Smaller text is certainly readable. If size one text is "unreadable," then I would advise it be removed from the options of text (since it would serve no purpose other than to receive infractions, which no one wants). Custom title text and "location" text are both smaller than post text, yet are certainly readable.

You claim that, because I was infracted for unreadable text SIX YEARS ago, that is still considered on file, and therefore enforced. Now, while I do remember receiving this infraction SIX YEARS ago, that's mostly because a) it was one of the three used as reasoning behind banning me, b) it was, at the time, remarkably weak, even for an MTGS infraction (and there is some stiff competition in the ol' Weak MTGS Infractions arena, as I'm sure you know), c) Azrael noted himself that b) was the case, and as such
disregarded it as legitimate, meaning that I didn't pay attention to the fact that I got an unreadable text warning SIX YEARS ago because admins didn't even think that it should have been an infraction in the first place, d) the rules have changed so tremendously since I received that infraction SIX YEARS ago that regarding an infraction I received then as some sort of "precedent" would lead to a whole host of other interpretations and other such consequences (eg since my infractions from SIX YEARS ago are still "on the books" so to speak can I also take as an implication the opposite, that anything I did not receive as an infraction was itself not against the rules and therefore alright to post, and if so could I receive this in writing and perhaps with some sort of time allotment with which I may safely take a break from my mundane day job and go out into the street to celebrate because hoo boy were some of those uninfracted posts great and I could really use some arguments against
similar ones being infracted), basically like if you look at the rules that were in place SIX YEARS ago and compare them to the present day eg the ones that I am certainly following to the letter with each and every post I make, you will find that they bear little resemblance other than in being extremely long and complex and with lots of specifics and even more generalities, and therefore the only real conclusion we can draw from an infraction I received SIX YEARS ago if we look at a)-d) in their sum total is the fact that I got a lot of infractions then, and any more would be a huge reach and basically I'd be better off ignoring them entirely because well let's add an e) here, the people enforcing the rules are so different than the ones from 2006 (both in attitude and in there not being any people at all, that I can see, who were mods/admins back then that still are at this present day except maybe Annorax and I don't even think he was an admin by the time I got banned), which is a separate issue from
the rules themselves being different (because rules systems themselves are essentially meaningless other than as a reference, and what really matters is enforcement eg local areas that have decriminalized certain drugs depsite them being illegal, or certain entirely philosophically unrelated local areas that have effectively criminalized through enforcement eg being a young male minority), and the fact that Moderator X way back when thought that a certain thing fell under a punishable category tells us approximately cream-cheese-and-lox-bagel about what Moderator Y in the present day thinks about those good ol' trolling rules and their enforcement.

Now, I know your response will be something along the lines of "well, even if the text is fully readable, the usage of it is still Trolling and Trolling is bad, and your post was clearly Trolling since it used the same font as Harkius." That's a hypothetical paraphrase, right there, of you. If that's not accurate, please issue a correction. I'm
sure you might even concede that size uno TNR might be a-ok with the mods under any other circumstance. I attempted to bring up the issue with you that my post did not seem to fall under any sort of published definition of "trolling," and you say that it's hard to pin down. Does this mean that you can basically infract any post as trolling? Because if that one is, then woo boy have we got a trolling epidemic on our hands. Posting in a different font is not me trying to provoke Harkius, it's poking some gentle fun at his style. It's like a small kid putting on his little suit and starting a speech to his teacher and classmates and assorted classroom pets with "my fellow Americans." It was harmless. It is innocuous. It provoked nothing, because using a different font says nothing about anything because it's just a font.

I used to post people's fonts/colors back at them my first time around, too. So did former admin Goblinboy. So did then-moderator Kijin. If you're going to throw
precedent at me, then you also have to see that I was posting something previously allowed.

Also, I consider you calling my posts "discourteous" and "antisocial" personally harmful and trolling. I would like you to infract yourself.

Also, the new admin Bouillabaisse said that a previous post of mine was passive-aggressive. I would like you to infract him. If not, then I would like permission to call people passive-aggressive.

I'm picking my nose right now.

LOVE
KCW

ahem... Boub is not an admin , he is the new owner of MTGS..

I think your a little charged to say the least...