[Primer] PyroRed

[Helios]

Re: Doomblade- he couldn't hit cackler with it, so it at least kept the Phoenix off the field for a few turns. Still probably a bad play, but I bet that was the reasoning.

[Pedros]

I played 1 more daily playing Walter White, went 3-1 lost to ... Esper Control. Both games 1 and 2 he stayed at 1 life for 2 or more turns. I couldnt draw land to burn him twice, or attack with mutavault and cast burn, etc.

Won mirror and vs mono black twice.

Funny part is at the same time I went 3-0 and split finals in Modern to get even more value. Tried naya control in 2 man queues and it is horrible ...

I dont know if I sideboarded correctly vs Mono Black:

-4 Shock
-4 Magma Jet
+2 traitorous instinct
+2 chained to the rocks
+1 hammer of Purphoros
+2 Mizzium Mortars
+1 Assemble the Legion

When you make this changes, you only have 8 instant/sorceries for young pyro, and only 7 ways to recour Phoenix (4 Strike + 3 Chandra). Also Chained to the Rocks is really powerful, however it breaks synergy in the deck. Also it is really hard to cast (need white source AND mountain. I lost some games when I had 2
mutavaults, 2 tempes and plains with chained in hand. Also it is completely dead vs control.

What I thought of ( please dont laught at me ) is splash blue instead. And do this the same way they splashed blue in RTR BLock contructed.

What do we splash for? Turn // Burn. We dont need a lot of blue sources as it can be cast as expenive shock. Later in the game it leads to 2 for 1. It isnt dead vs control as it can burn faces and recour phoenix.

Other potential sb use of blue splash is Catch // Release, especially Catch part of this card. It is better Act of Treason, as it can steal planeswalkers to ulti them or kill them. This kind of SB card can be played later, so not many blue sources doesnt matter.

What I noticed is the fact, that in a lot matches you sb out Shocks. I would consider 2/2 split in main, with 2 more (?) Turn burns in sb.

How do we splash it? I would try 4 STeam vents (in RTR block this is the only land they used to splash) + 4 Breeding Pool. Why Breeding Pool? Because then it is
possible to run Burning Tree Emissary, as it also enables to play this card, and it is the only RR card for 2 mana.

Thoughts?

[Helios]

Splashing a third color seems far too inconsistent.

[Jack]

I'm with you, magicdownunder (how do people normally abbreviate your username?). Plains should leave the deck. At game day, I was unable to cast my Chained to the Rocks because I had a plains rather than a mountain. I kept it a singleton copy in for testing purposes, and it failed that test. I have never been in a situation where a plains let me win a game that a mountain would not have. We play 8 red 1 drops and shouldn't ever need white before turn 3. I'll continue to collect data on which is correct, but from now on I'll use a non-foil Mountain to do so rather than Plains.

[Pedros]

I never told to run 3rd color. Why would you even play white ?

[DocLawless]

About half of us splash white for Chained to the Rocks and Boros Charm. We're not variant enough from the core build that we have our own thread, but we're too different from Big Boros to be relevant over there. Hence the confusion.


("Half" may be a generous estimation...)

[Helios]

I never told to run 3rd color. Why would you even play white ?

Sorry, I misunderstood your post.

White gives you a 1 mana answer to nearly every creature in the format? Turn // Burn requires you to both have another to block and leave 3 mana open. 1 mana vs. 3 mana is a big deal. Plus Reckoner out of the side destroys a lot of decks, and if you're using Breeding Pool, you don't get Reckoner. FYI the white variant is in the first post of the thread, and has been since its inception.

[Aodh]

I'm with you, magicdownunder (how do people normally abbreviate your username?). Plains should leave the deck. At game day, I was unable to cast my Chained to the Rocks because I had a plains rather than a mountain. I kept it a singleton copy in for testing purposes, and it failed that test. I have never been in a situation where a plains let me win a game that a mountain would not have. We play 8 red 1 drops and shouldn't ever need white before turn 3. I'll continue to collect data on which is correct, but from now on I'll use a non-foil Mountain to do so rather than Plains.

I don't think this is right. The only time a plains can hinder you from chaining is if it's your only land or only alongside Temples of Triumph. If plains is your
only land, then the hand should be shipped; this would be the case even if it was a mountain. The other scenarios might be better with a mountain, but I don't know how many MTN+Temp+Temp hands I'd keep either... Necessary evil, I guess.

[Jack]

I'll admit that my testing is less than comprehensive and the results interpreted with a degree of bias, but I'm sticking to my conclusion. I usually like to try out one basic of the splash color "just because," and when I did it with this deck, I saw that it just wasn't worth it. It's prevented me from casting Ash Zealot on curve enough times that I don't want it in my deck. We sacrifice consistency by playing lands that can't make red, and this one doesn't bring enough to the table to warrant this sacrifice.

[zemanjaski]

Hey Zemanjaski as promised I tested your RW list and created some videos and comment - here was the list that I ran:

[deck=Zemanjaski's Winter Aussie BBQ]Lands 23
12x Mountain
04x Sacred Foundry
04x Temple of Triumph
02x Mutavault
01x Plains

Creatures 20
04x Ash Zealot
04x Chandra's Phoenix
04x Firedrinker Satyr
04x Rakdos Cackler
04x Young Pyromancer

Planeswalkers 03
03x Chandra, Pyromaster

Enchantments 02
02x Chained to the Rocks

Instants 12
04x Lightning Strike
04x Magma Jet
04x Shock

Sideboard 15
04x Boros Reckoner
03x Skullcrack
02x Boros Charm
02x Chained to the Rocks
02x Mizzium Mortars
01x Hammer of Purphoros
01x Assemble the Legions[/deck]

My initial thoughts:
1) I miss explosive BtE starts
2)
I miss drawing into Mutavault with ease
3) I miss Firefist Striker
4) Opening hands with only Temple of Triumph and one drops to play really sucks.

Proceeded to play a daily Event of my kettles (busy days, but meh might as well) proceeded to go 3-1 which is great considering how badly I piloted the deck.

Here are the replays, they come with a warning:

G1: MonoBlack Devotion
G2: Esper Control
G3: MonoRed Devotion
G4: MonoBlue Devotion

Post Event thoughts:
1) Scry lands are quite strong
2) I still miss Mutavault
3) Losing Firefist Striker and BtE is acceptable
4) Assemble the Legions is HORRIBLE vs UW/x Control

Made some adjustments and found a more
acceptable time to play a Standard Daily Event and proceeded to go 4-0 running:

[deck=Zemanjaski's Winter Aussie BBQ]Lands 23
12x Mountain
04x Sacred Foundry
04x Temple of Triumph
02x Mutavault
01x Plains

Creatures 20
04x Ash Zealot
04x Chandra's Phoenix
04x Firedrinker Satyr
04x Rakdos Cackler
04x Young Pyromancer

Planeswalkers 03
03x Chandra, Pyromaster

Enchantments 02
02x Chained to the Rocks

Instants 12
04x Lightning Strike
04x Magma Jet
04x Shock

Sideboard 15
04x Boros Reckoner
02x Skullcrack
02x Boros Charm
02x Chained to the Rocks
02x Mizzium Mortars
02x Fanatic of Mogis
01x Hammer of Purphoros[/deck]

I'll post those videos later tomorrow, I feel that Temple of Triumph + Magma Jet + Chandra, Pyromaster is what makes this list click so well. GR Colossus is still a bad MU - threaten doesn't work so I opted to run 02x Fanatic of Mogis which go with 04x Boros Reckoner for curve and pray approach.

The only change I want to make with the MD is that
singleton Plains I drew it as my 2nd land in a critical stage it almost ruined me, I understand it purpose but I think with the scry we can just stick with 8 white sources (its not like we need to Chained a creature during the early turns often) so I'll try a extra Mutavault in its place (for now).

I won't discuss the Side Board Strategies since I notice that its frowned upon on this forums but I'll PM you with em later.

p.s. 5 more QPS till I'm in the finals
p.s.s. if you have MODO you can just watch the 4-0 yourself its the Daily event 6162746

Really glad the archetype is serving you well MDU ill try out some of your changes myself, they're a different approach I had not considered!

RE: sideboarding. Discuss away. I just have an aversion to people
specifically asking me for advice like its gospel.

[DocLawless]

RE: sideboarding. Discuss away. I just have an aversion to people specifically asking me for advice like its gospel.

To be fair, your advice is always pretty solid.

[Helios]

Z, don't you tell me my idol has clay feet

[chlb]

Took BR variant to FNM and ended up with a bit disappointing 2-2. Both of my losses were to mono red decks.

I used the same list I posted earlier in the thread with updated sideboard:
[deck]
Land:
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
10 Mountain
4 Swamp

Creature:
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Spike Jester
2 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Other:
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Dreadbore
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard:
4 Doom Blade
2 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Act of Treason
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Erebos, God of the Dead (thanks Yarplus!)
[/deck]

Round 1: Esper Control 2-0
Same guy I played against on Game Day. Game one I keep up good pressure and bring out new threats while disposes of my old ones. Tymaret and Phoenix seals the deal. Game two I curve Cackler > Jester > Phoenix > Erebos
while he plays some scry lands and Blind Obedience. He plays Jace and picks up Far//Away. I draw some cards with Erebos, play another Cackler and Jester, and Searing Spear him to death while he taps out for fused Far & Away.
SB: -4 Shock +1 Hammer +1 Erebos +2 Thoughtseize

Round 2: Devotion Red 0-2
He wins the die roll and game one is really close. He fanatics me to 1 life and he is dead if I top deck a Lighting Strike (I had Magma Jet for the minotaur and 7 power while he was at 10 life). Game 2 I keep a greedy 2-land hand with lots of removal, but he pukes out turn 2 Emissary + Emissary + Firefist. I can only trade 1-on-1 with my removal and get behind on cards fast. Luckily he was a cool red mage and I had nice talk with him about red decks after the match.
SB: -4 Cackler -4 Satyr +4 Doom Blade +2 Dreadbore +2 Mortars

Round 3: Mono Red 0-2
Game one I identify his deck as bigger red or something, as I saw creatures like Ogre Battledriver and
Ember Swallower. I dediced to bring in 2 Acts in case he plays something like a dragon as well. Game two I mulligan to 5, keeping some avarage hand. He plays multiple Ashleys that I remove as fast as I can, followed by Reckoner into Fanatic. I ask about his deck after the match, and he reveals it is a devotion list but built from the cards he has opened from boosters.
SB: -4 Cackler -4 Satyr -2 Shock +4 Doom Blade +2 Dreadbore +2 Mortars +2 Act

Round 4: Dega Midrange 2-0
I start game one with Cackler into Jester that survive any thoughts he had about using Doom Blade on my creatures. He plays some dudes such as Soldier of the Pantheon and Xathrid Necromancer that I proceed to remove, leaving him with some tapped zombies. He shoots out some Magma Jets, I add more Cacklers and fly to victory with Phoenix. Game two I start to bash hard with Satyr and Jester, he taps out for Desecration Demon and I have Act of Treason in my hand. I steal his demon, swing in for lethal and he gives
me his best "well, you got me there" face.
SB: -4 Shock -3 Magma Jet +3 Act +2 Dreadbore +1 Hammer +1 Erebos

I had time before the last round ended, so I played some bonus games against mono green devotion. Game one can be tough, but after sideboarding there is just so much removal that they can't keep devotion up. Tymaret & YP is an engine of doom for them.

I probably run the same list again for wednesday standard tournament, and just try to play more carefully against Devotion Red and draw the nut hands. I also saw a blue devotion player packing evil things like Wall of Frost, which makes me want to play with either black or white splash rathen than sticking to mono red.

Sideboard was good, but I really miss Reckoner. Something to fight against the Emissary train would be nice, but in addition to Reckoner and Frostburn Weird I can only think of questionable cards such as Returned Phalanx or Corpse Blockade. Maybe in the next expansion...

[zemanjaski]

RB is so bad against straight mono red

[dpaine88]

Wait, wtf, Zemans word isn't gospel?! Haha maybe not but its usually good advice.


RE: The plains, I think a lot of us are used to splashing 10 sources for a color dating back to Falkenwrath Aristocrat. We said 9-10 was minimum and now we run 8.

I'm going to a different FNM tonight...lots of scrubs. I've been twice, not lost even a single game. If there are any notworthy games or competitors, I will write something up about it. Running Mono Red with Burning Tree.


Started foiling this bitch out and damn is it sexy but wtf with YP Foil going for fucking $12? I thought we were the only crazy bastards playing this guy

[Khaospawn]

Wait, wtf, Zemans word isn't gospel?! Haha maybe not but its usually good advice.


RE: The plains, I think a lot of us are used to splashing 10 sources for a color dating back to Falkenwrath Aristocrat. We said 9-10 was minimum and now we run 8.

I'm going to a different FNM tonight...lots of scrubs. I've been twice, not lost even a single game. If there are any notworthy games or competitors, I will write something up about it. Running Mono Red with Burning Tree.


Started foiling this bitch out and damn is it sexy but wtf with YP Foil going for fucking $12? I thought we were the only crazy bastards playing this guy

Are you foiling out your Mountains? If so, which kind? I have a bunch of foil mountains, but I need about 10
more featuring the purple-looking underground lair Mountain by Jon Avon from RTR.

[zemanjaski]

^ YP is one of the best new cards in legacy.

[chlb]

RB is so bad against straight mono red

Got any tips for the matchup, zem? Or is it just hoping they don't have too many emissaries?

[Elricity]

I know this is a bad idea when I say it. I'm now going to say it anyway.

You have 12 black sources and 22 lands. Is it remotely possible that Whip is actually better than hammer (or both?) for what you're doing with Tymaret? It even allows you to recur YP to have a shot at more token triggers...you know, if you have...5-6 mana. But seriously, it's extra fling damage versus control and gives you a narrow, albiet unlikely, chance to claw back in vs red. You can run one of both and not smash into the legendary rule.

Is anything else giving you problems? If not, maybe 2-3 flames of the firebrand is a better choice than more mortars or doom blade.

[dpaine88]

Wait, wtf, Zemans word isn't gospel?! Haha maybe not but its usually good advice.


RE: The plains, I think a lot of us are used to splashing 10 sources for a color dating back to Falkenwrath Aristocrat. We said 9-10 was minimum and now we run 8.

I'm going to a different FNM tonight...lots of scrubs. I've been twice, not lost even a single game. If there are any notworthy games or competitors, I will write something up about it. Running Mono Red with Burning Tree.


Started foiling this bitch out and damn is it sexy but wtf with YP Foil going for fucking $12? I thought we were the only
crazy bastards playing this guy

Are you foiling out your Mountains? If so, which kind? I have a bunch of foil mountains, but I need about 10 more featuring the purple-looking underground lair Mountain by Jon Avon from RTR.

Haha yes I am Actually. I love the RTR RIchard Wright mountain, 269/274. Its like a big dark dooming tower. Not even a mountain in the picture but it looks fuckin badass.

Also got lucky with a Foil Media Promo Chandra's Phoenix for cheap

[Khaospawn]

Wait, wtf, Zemans word isn't gospel?! Haha maybe not but its usually good advice.


RE: The plains, I think a lot of us are used to splashing 10 sources for a color dating back to Falkenwrath Aristocrat. We said 9-10 was minimum and now we run 8.

I'm going to a different FNM tonight...lots of scrubs. I've been twice, not lost even a single game. If there are any notworthy games or competitors, I will write something up
about it. Running Mono Red with Burning Tree.


Started foiling this bitch out and damn is it sexy but wtf with YP Foil going for fucking $12? I thought we were the only crazy bastards playing this guy

Are you foiling out your Mountains? If so, which kind? I have a bunch of foil mountains, but I need about 10 more featuring the purple-looking underground lair Mountain by Jon Avon from RTR.

Haha yes I am Actually. I love the RTR RIchard Wright mountain, 269/274. Its like a big dark dooming tower. Not even a mountain in the picture but it looks fuckin badass.

Also got lucky with a Foil Media Promo Chandra's Phoenix for cheap

I have 6 of your Mountains.

Got 6 of the one I need?

[Woj]

RB is so bad against straight mono red

Absolutely, One if the reasons I am on a variant of your straight mono red Zem. Although I so badly want to play thoughtseize Aggro in this format, however the Black base aggro decks (like Ari Lax's PT deck) and the Red splash black seem poorly positioned right now =/

I am actually hedging vs aggro a bit playing only 2 mutavault, 20 mountains (rather than Zem's 4, 18 split) to allow me the Reckoners in the board; thoughts?

[Pedros]

Played 4 * 2 man queues and 1 daily with Pyro Izzet

3-1 in daily:

1-2 vs GB reanimator control????

He got every removal in the world, whip, sylvan caryatid + scavnging ooze and commune to nature and grisly salvage. Sylvan caryatid stopped early agresion, while removal, ooze and whip gave him time.

2-0 vs Big Red

Turn burn used to kill reckoner in combat, and earlier to kill ash zealot.

2-0 vs Mono Black

Turn burn used to kill pack rats without splash mana, later to recur phoenix and kill him with burn.

2-1 vs Collosal Grull

Turn Burn used to kill early mana dork, later to kill monstrous Polukranos in response to activation.

Manabase:

4 Steam Vents
4 Mulavault
14 Mountain

Didnt play Catch Release in Sb, just normal act of treason. Why Act of treason not Traitorous Blood btw? Most games I easily have 4 lands on board.

in 4 * 2 man queues:

0-2 collosal groul. Scavenging ooze is so
hard to kill. Only this one time chained would be better.

2-0 esper

2-0 mono black

2-1 devotion red.

[chlb]

@Elricity: I like hammer against control because of the haste it gives. And like you said, whip might be too slow against mono red decks. Changing 2 mortars into 2 flames might be good, though. Then I can kill emissary & firefist/satyr with one card.

[Elricity]

I kind of think you should drop 2 doom blade first unless you really need the instant mode. Just having the chance to overload mortars is really valuable.

[chlb]

We got GR/Naya/GW ramp and midrange in our meta and I like the blades against them. But now I feel it's the mono red that's giving me more trouble so testing the mixture of removal over the weekend.

[zemanjaski]

Doom Blade is really bad against other red decks; it's almost always just worse than Shock. So you're contorting your mana base (which increases mana issues plus you shock yourself) and you don't get Mutavault (less threat density). Oh and no Reckoner who's still the best card in the matchup.

[Yarpus]

Another take on Mono PyroRed

[deck]Creatures:
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge

Planeswalkers:
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Burn:
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike

Artifacts:
1 Hammer of Purphoros

Lands:
3 Mutavault
20 Mountain[/deck]

[DocLawless]

See... someone a few days ago asked me to "what about Purphoros?" and I blew them off, but I've been secretly wondering ever since then how he would actually work out.

[LaZerBurn]

Check back in the thread; Purp was mentioned a few pages back and someone (can't remember who) reported that he wasn't great in testing, not that that prohibits further testing of course

[Helios]

Walter white, go! FNM time.

[Yarpus]

In theory it should work well. Both damage triggers and pump ability synergizes crazily with tokens.
Fuck reality not matching my expectations. Fuck it.

[Valdarith]

The sideboard options for the mono black matchup are definitely interesting. LP and I were discussing this on my stream last night when I was playing RB and he suggested just packing in all the burn spells and going over the top. Definitely have a lot of options and it's hard to tell which is best. In my PyroRed list I mainboard three Mortars and it could be correct to just sub in Skullcrack and just try to get there with early drops and finish with burn.

[magicdownunder]

4) Assemble the Legions is HORRIBLE vs UW/x Control

Really? What was the scenario/outcome that led you to this conclusion?

UW/x run Jace, Jace doesn't care if you have billion 1/1 - if your in a position where you have to target Jace to win the game - your most likely are going to lose anyways.

[Valdarith]

For reference,


[deck]
Creatures (22)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (18)
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (20)
20 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Electrickery
2 Frostburn Weird
1 Mizzium Mortars
4 Skullcrack
3 Act of Treason
1 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Mountain
[/deck]

The Mountain in the side should be a Mutavault.

[LP, of the Fires]

The sideboard options for the mono black matchup are definitely interesting. LP and I were discussing this on my stream last night when I was playing RB and he suggested just packing in all the burn spells and going over the top. Definitely have a lot of options and it's hard to tell which is best. In my PyroRed list I mainboard three Mortars and it could be correct to just sub in Skullcrack and just try to get there with early drops and finish with burn.

Yeah, when playing against the deck that wants to one-for-one you, playing removal for their guys plays into there gameplan. Spending a turn removing the slow decks guys while letting you get in for damage is a slow way of doing it and gives them time to draw into there removal ending up in a
game where you both trade off cards until finally you're out of cards and they have whatever engine active.

A better plan is just swarming them so their removal is overloaded and finishing them with burn. I've even started question wether I like Chandra in this matchup as playing her, plus 1-ing and having here hero's downfalled is the worst feeling in the world.

[zemanjaski]

Turning a 1 drop into a ~4 point burn spell has always been effective. Still like my threatens though.

[magicdownunder]

Turning a 1 drop into a ~4 point burn spell has always been effective. Still like my threatens though.

Threatens is great vs MonoBlack Devotion, my only issue is that when they have another creature in play (like vaults or merchant) it just become a more expensive Devour Flesh which pumps the demon.

[InflatablePie]

4-0-2, double draw into top 8, won 10 packs, yadda yadda.

Round 1 vs GR Stuff - guy was new. I felt bad. :s He did win Game 1 with a Madcap Skills Polukranos. 2-1
Round 2 vs Simic Flash-Aggro - X1s, Shamblesharks, Horizon Chimeras, Biomancers. I almost lost Game 2, but managed to burn him out. 2-0
Round 3 vs Esper - won game 1, although it took a while. Game 2 I kept a hand with two land, pyro, boros charm, skullcrack, satyr, lightning strike. Guess how that went. 2-0
Round 4 vs Monoblack Devotion - Game 1 I saw some removal and two Gray Merchants. Game 2 was similar, with a Chained for his DDemon. Got him to 9, swung for 5, he drew a card with Erebos, I shocked him. 2-0
Round 5 vs Mono-U Devotion - Draw for top 8. Didn't get to play it out because he was subbing in for a Cube draft or something, so I got to do nothing for 45 minutes.
Round 6 vs Junk Midrange - same guy I had a draw against and lost to last week.
Decided to draw this week as well. Lost 0-2 technically.

And top 8 split, so I got 10 packs (would have been 5 but I paid the optional $5 entry to double my payout).

Made 3rd with 14 points, first and second had 15 points. So had I opted to play my last match, and won (or the match before, possibly) I could have gotten 1st or 2nd for a promo. But hey, I'll take the ten packs for $5 (which I have yet to open because I'm tired and don't want to deal with any more Magic right now).

[windstrider]

I took Walter White and went 3-2, losing both times to Mono U Devotion, where I am very certain, upon reflection, that I sideboarded horribly for those games. I went for more spells when I should have gone for better spells and more creatures. Ah well.

But the coolest thing happened: I got to play an exact mirror match with someone who's been reading our forum! After he noticed that we were playing the same thing, he asked if I had seen it at diestoremoval. He was quite surprised when I told him my screen name. I ended up winning the match, and we chatted for quite some time. We should be seeing him soon.