[Primer] PyroRed

[LaZerBurn]

@ Stephan - agreed on all points

[zemanjaski]

I don't need more cards for the red mirror. Have plenty already. Good thinking, I like it!

[zemanjaski]

I also want a single card in the 60 to draw into as a "I win when I play this". It needs to be pretty quick to. Last season was Zealous Conscripts. I suppose that Stormbreath is the easy choice, but I don't feel its quite good enough. Will need to consider all the options. I like that some decks just cannot interact with it.

[Wrathberry2]

i would love to still have zealous conscripts

REPRINT PLZ

[zemanjaski]

It was my signature card all season. Such a good magic card.

[zemanjaski]

Anyone else find that YP varies from ABSURD to meh? It's either a 2/1 + 3 guys or a 2/1 no abilities...it's always amazing post board though, when you're taking out creatures for spells.

[Keftenk]

Last season was Zealous Conscripts.

Do we have anything like Zealous Conscripts in the block right now? It's just the Primordial still, right?

[zemanjaski]

Yeah you want a 4-drop or 5-drop that has huge immediate impact. It can't be fanatic of Mogis because I don't really run enough creatures; I need something that gets there by itself. Probably Stormbreath is the only real option.

[LaZerBurn]

@ Zemanjaski - yes I find that with YP.

I think Stormbreath is the best/only option but I actually find Traitorous Instinct's one shot effect stronger than Stormbreath a lot of the time - steal your Demon and smash you for 8 often just wins the game, not to mention being immensely satisfying

A nice side effect of playing Stormbreath is adding extra Mutavaults to up the land count to 25 as they are consistently great for me

[zemanjaski]

Yeah, I do love me some Mutavaults. The Mono Red version gets to play 3, which is nice. We could look at switching YP for something else, but the power ceiling of YP is SO much higher than everything else...

I don't think we can run a maindeck threaten, but maybe. I always found Conscripts good, and there's a lot of creatures in standard...

[LaZerBurn]

I've looked and I really don't think there is a better option than YP at the moment; certainly there is nothing that creates so many options and lines of play which is what I really like about the deck.

I'm not sold on a MD threaten but it is certainly worth thinking about. What comes out is the question? 1 Chained?

[windstrider]

YP's value varies with the amount of spells you see over a game, which is why he gets so much better post board. Even when he's not so good, he's still a decent 2/1 beater. He's very much a context dependent creature.

Conscripts would be insane right now. Steal anything? Yes, please.

In PyroRed, I am very tempted to throw in a singleton [card]Pyromancer's Gauntlet[/card] since the effect is so absurd with Chandra and the amount of burn. I have no idea what I could cut for it, though.

[Elricity]

I don't think Gauntlet meshes with a deck who also wants to get a lot of value from its one drops by closing out a game quickly. I've personally loved it as a midrange card though.

[Helios]

+1 the YP train of thought. Sometimes you're just wishing he was shreadfreak, other times he singlehandedly wins the games. That being said, I think the overall power level is high enough that I'm not regretting the times he's "dead."

MD Threaten seems bad. What would you cut?

[Mage of hot stuff]

Well whenever i play YP$ i always use him as a turn 3+ so i get to play him + shock and get a token. So in my eyes if i only get to do just that, before he is moved. Its better than the options for his replacement. Just that simple move provided so much CA. as opposed to replacing him with say Rakdos Shred-freak, and getting a 2/1 haste. I dunno, but for me, ive never found him a dead card. even if i play him and he is countered. I just salute him, like he did a good job and toss him in the GY, because he is that awesome.

also I /agree for Zealous conscripts. Yespleaseandthankyou.

[Calamity]

I was playing against a UW control last night and he D-sphered a lone young pyromancer not once but TWICE. That's how scary the damn card is. The fact that i ended up losing that game due to drawing land 6 turns in a row and no hammer of purphoros was annoying but was just variance. If i had drawn some gas or Chandra I definitely would have gotten there since I was up in cards the whole time until I drew 6 lands.

[Elricity]

Were you able to net tokens off him before he was sphered?

[zemanjaski]

So, a guest PM'd me to suggest Wrecking Ogre. I kinda like that suggestion a lot; on any unblocked 2-power guy, it's 10 damage out of nowhere and a 3/3 double strike isn't awful if you're in a matchup where you want that (eg. vs any control deck, white weenie or green deck).

Discuss.

[zemanjaski]

Also, tapping 5 to say "get wrecked" seems hilarious.

[Calamity]

Were you able to net tokens off him before he was sphered?

I was able to get a token off of the second one that got about 3 points of damage in. I played the first one on turn 3 since i had no other play (he played pithing needle turn 1 naming mutavault). I figured If he wasted removal on my first YP I'd be able to get in with the second. Plus every D sphere he uses on YP is one he can't use on Chandra or hammer, which end games by themselves.

[Calamity]

So, a guest PM'd me to suggest Wrecking Ogre. I kinda like that suggestion a lot; on any unblocked 2-power guy, it's 10 damage out of nowhere and a 3/3 double strike isn't awful if you're in a matchup where you want that (eg. vs any control deck, white weenie or green deck).

Discuss.

The idea of bloodrushing him onto an unblocked phoenix makes me giddy

[Zooligan]

Also, tapping 5 to say "get wrecked" seems hilarious.

Could be the "play this, win the game" card you're looking for.

[lorddax]

Wrecking Ogre seems a very good option due to his dual modes, that unblocked token suddenly becomes 8 damage. Out of all the choices I think hes the most suitable for a YP deck.

The only other thing I can think of that fits is possibly, Stoneshock Giant - breaks stalled states or giant Master of Babes boards, but still doesn't fit the tap and win unless you have the board state for his monster.

Not sure how well tap out and win plan works for PyRos but, Boros has a few considerations like Blaze Commando to double down on burn efficency, or Boros Battleshaper on the expensive side to pick apart the board state, with Fortress Cyclops or Foundry Champion to fill a "big beater" role

[Aodh]

I haven't played too many games with PyroRed lists, but Wrecking Ogre doesn't seem constructed playable. As a 1-of game-ender, sure it might sometimes get there since it's a 5-mana:7-9 damage burn spell or combat trick, plus the "get wrecked" clause seems fucking choice. But, it just seems really clunky and lacks synergy with the rest of the deck. Against aggro, I feel like this deck just wants to grind, against midrange this seems like an awesome 1-for-1 trade-up, but still not super exciting, and there's no way you're not getting more-than-1-for-1'd against control with this card.

[DerWille]

YP's value varies with the amount of spells you see over a game, which is why he gets so much better post board. Even when he's not so good, he's still a decent 2/1 beater. He's very much a context dependent creature.

Conscripts would be insane right now. Steal anything? Yes, please.

In PyroRed, I am very tempted to throw in a singleton [card]Pyromancer's Gauntlet[/card] since the effect is so absurd with Chandra and the amount of burn. I have no idea what I could cut for it, though.

I've experimented with this a bit as a singleton in the sideboard. The gauntlet is great when Chandra is online, but so-so when she's not. The card isn't so much a "I win now" card but a "If I draw burn, you're
dead." It can close out a game, but it requires that you have a significant amount of burn in hand, at least 3.

[Elricity]

It creates value at 2 burn in hand as it's effectively 2 free shocks but you could argue it could just be warleader's helix. It just runs counter to the one drop plan.

[zemanjaski]

Been experimenting with Pacifisms to supplement Chained against MBC / BW Control. So far so good. It doesn't let them get guys in the yard to Whip which is absurdly relevant.

[Helios]

Sounds like good tech. What are you cutting for the "i win" card, once we find one? I'm going to play some games with a MB Stormbreath, just to see how it goes.

[zemanjaski]

I'm not sure. Depends what the card is...maybe this means I want the hammer main again? It's not really what I'm looking for; nothing seems right just now. Might just be a card to watch for next set (though I think it's large-small-small)? Maybe the RW god will be it; we can get RW mana symbols easily enough, if that's how they work (yay for chained counting to devotion!)

[LaZerBurn]

I like the Pacifism plan a lot! Thanks Z

[Jack]

Don't forget that we also have Arrest. Much like with Traitorous Instinct, the increase in mana cost doesn't matter too much since we will usually cast it on a 4+ cmc creature. The higher mana cost does mean that you will often be unable to cast it + another spell on the same turn, though.
Relevant creatures with activated abilities:
Polukranos
Thassa, God of the Sea/Nylea, God of the Hunt (although you're in a pretty bad position if these ever become creatures and you can't change them back)
Scavenging Ooze (although we can usually just burn this one)
Plus a few more. There aren't many and Polukranos isn't played too heavily but it's still worth mentioning.

[windstrider]

So, a guest PM'd me to suggest Wrecking Ogre. I kinda like that suggestion a lot; on any unblocked 2-power guy, it's 10 damage out of nowhere and a 3/3 double strike isn't awful if you're in a matchup where you want that (eg. vs any control deck, white weenie or green deck).

Discuss.

How odd. I was looking through my binder of cards and kept coming back to the Ogre as a 1-of in the deck. The effect would be disgusting on anything that got through, complimenting the unexpected nature of the deck to win out of nowhere.

[DerWille]

It creates value at 2 burn in hand as it's effectively 2 free shocks but you could argue it could just be warleader's helix. It just runs counter to the one drop plan.

Play tested, 2 burn spells is not enough. I think there's a deceptive amount of life gain in the format between Scavenging Ooze, Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Obzedat, Ghost Council, Whip of Erebos, [card]Warleader's Helix[/card], [card]Sphinx's Revelation[/card], Unflinching Courage, and Gray Merchant of Asphodel. Most decks I've gone against are running at
least 1 of those cards, so it's not the typical burn scenario of taking them out at 3 to 6 life. It's more like burning them from 10 to 16 on a stalled board because they've gained at least 10 life over this long, grindy game (which is usually where you'd put the gauntlet in).

However, Chandra, Pyromaster + [card]Pyromancer's Gauntlet[/card] lets you burn out nearly every creature in the format with a single burn spell. +1 Chandra for 3 damage and Shock for 4. If you're able to get Chandra and Gauntlet online, you're basically in the driver's seat. Her +1 by itself is like playing 2 Lightning Strikes a turn. Without Chandra, you better have a lot of burn in hand to close things out.

[card]Warleader's Helix[/card] is a bad comparison because it doesn't heal. [card]Warleader's Helix[/card] is a net 8 life point swing. Think of it more as
a free Boros Charm nuke.

[Mage of hot stuff]

The ogre is too high cost and limited. You have to hope the opponent doesn't block so it can end the game. its a chance it could be a dead card in your hand. In my opinion anyway.

[zemanjaski]

You're right. I want something independently powerful, so Stormbreath is the man right now, even if it's just a bad Falkenrath Aristocrat most of the time.

It sometimes feels like I have to work a lot harder than my opponent to win. Anyone else getting that? Probably because I have to make a million little decisions and they're just like "I hope I draw two desecration demon or I can't possibly win". Must be real nice to play a deck like that. Believe in the heart of the cards yo.

[Calamity]

You're right. I want something independently powerful, so Stormbreath is the man right now, even if it's just a bad Falkenrath Aristocrat most of the time.

It sometimes feels like I have to work a lot harder than my opponent to win. Anyone else getting that? Probably because I have to make a million little decisions and they're just like "I hope I draw two desecration demon or I can't possibly win". Must be real nice to play a deck like that. Believe in the heart of the cards yo.

I like taking solace in the fact that I'm probably 10x better at magic than the people I beat that play decks like that

[DerWille]

I do, but I thought that was a selling point of the deck. It requires much more out of us, but we almost always have a line of play that can let us win. I rarely, if ever, feel like the game was completely out of my reach. I can usually think back and say, "If I had done Y instead of X, I would have won." Which is a great place to be.

[Calamity]

Pretty much every time I've lost I could either identify the mistake(s) that lead to me losing or know for sure it was variance that killed me (like playing against devotion red where they draw two reckoners and I only draw one while having to mull to 5)

[Elricity]

It creates value at 2 burn in hand as it's effectively 2 free shocks but you could argue it could just be warleader's helix. It just runs counter to the one drop plan.

[card]Warleader's Helix[/card] is a bad comparison because it doesn't heal. [card]Warleader's Helix[/card] is a net 8 life point swing. Think of it more as a free Boros Charm nuke.

It is like boros charm except Gauntlet costs 5, charm costs 2. I wanted to compare two cards of similar casting cost that also both affect creatures in
their own way.

Personally, I don't think 15 cards that trigger Gauntlet are quite enough to justify not just running more burn versus players. At the current volume I'm seeing in these decklists, you're only putting in gauntlet if you are hoping not to 2 for 1 burn 5+ toughness creatures. Is that the direction these decklists want to go?

[zemanjaski]

I do, but I thought that was a selling point of the deck. It requires much more out of us, but we almost always have a line of play that can let us win. I rarely, if ever, feel like the game was completely out of my reach. I can usually think back and say, "If I had done Y instead of X, I would have won." Which is a great place to be.

Oh I agree. It's why I like the deck so much. I'd say more than half of my losses involve my opponent needing to draw absurdly well or they were never even in it.

I just want a card that can steal close games I suppose. Last season Conscripts would let you do that; tgey might have stabilised behind double Thragtusk and be walking your guys; having a conscripts as a live deal would win you a
small number of games you otherwise wouldn't.

It's even find drawn early, because you can engineer board states to take advantage of it. I want that sort of card!