Special thanks to NerdBoyWonder for this flippin sweet banner.
History
The weekend of Pro-Tour Theros, a new deck emerged in the form of RW Aggro. The deck was played by Adrian Sullivan at SCGO: Milwaukee to a 4th place finish, and by Adam Jensen at Pro Tour Theros: to a 49th place finish. However, that is a deceiving statistic, because he got 22 points in standard and only 9 in draft. He was tied for 14th in the standard portion and might have made top 16 on breakers if it was a standard only event. I was very excited about this list, since it seemed like it is where my meta / testing was
leading me anyway. This was a deck that attacks the meta, in a straightforward, yet elegant way.This primer had somewhat of a following with a few players (Such as LP, of the Fires, Zooligan and LaZerburn) posting decent results. Many of us were waffling between this, and Zemanjaski's PyroBoros. Then, we gained our Patron Saint, MODO Grinder MagicDownUnder who changed the direction of the deck fundementally, from a Sledgehammer-esque strategy, to more of an Aggro-Control variant. The benefit of such an approach was that we chould play either role, and SB into whichever suited us for a given match up. With MDU at the helm, the number of dedicated Big Boros players grew and we all started posting better results (including my career highpoint, 95th place at GP Shizuoka). He has posted hundreds of youtube videos (some of which are posted here) which you can watch to learn how to play the deck, or to get better at playing the deck. We now have a following here on DTR, of friendly, dedicated Big Boros players. We
hope that you will decide to pick up the deck and join us.
Example Decks
Adrian Sullivan, 4th Place at StarCityGames.com Standard Open on 10/13/2013
Sideboard 15
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Skullcrack
2 Boros Charm
2 Last Breath[/deck]
Why play the deck?
Do you
like dragons? Do you like winning? Did you play Sledgehammer Red last year? If you answered yes to any of these questions, you may want to consider this deck. This deck is a next level deck, in that it is designed to attack the meta, and beat not only the present best decks, but the decks that will answer the present best decks. Dragons are very strong against any non-black deck. The white splash helps to cover your soft spots, and provides answers to problem cards.
Why the white splash?
The white splash gives access to several key cards:
1) Boros Charm: This is part of what makes this a next level deck.Stormbreath Dragon is big enough to ride to a win, and protects itself against white removal. That means black removal and sweepers are most likely to ruin your day. Boros Charm gives you a little more protection for your dragons, allowing you to counter a
Verdict, [card]Hero’s Downfall[/card] or Mizzium Mortars. You also get reach, and big finishes if you can ultimate Chandra.
3) Temple of Triumph: While these lands aren’t amazing (I think most of us would take Clifftop Retreat in a heartbeat) they are useful. The Mono Black Devotion deck at PT: Theros was playing Temple of Silence in a mono-black deck because the deck builder thought scry 1 was
that relevant.
5) Assemble the Legion: A planeswalker that can’t be removed. It’s not as strong as Elspeth, but it’s another axis to attack on, and demands enchantment removal, that may or may not be in sideboards.
Why not just play devotion?
RW Devotion is obviously a good deck, and it does a lot of the same things we're doing here. It is more explosive, but it can't pivot
and play control and manipulate board states the way this deck can.
Aren’t you worried about the mana curve?
We all know an ideal aggro curve looks something like:
10 1cc
8 2cc
6 3cc
4 4cc
2 5cc
That is the kind of curve we’ve been spoiled with in the past with decks like Khaos and Dpaine’s states lists from last year.
This deck curves a little differently. It looks like:
8 1cc
4 2cc
4 3cc
2 4cc
4 5cc
While it would be nice to have some more quality two drops, there is nothing else that matches up in terms of card quality. We can’t play 8 Ash Zealots, or we would. Now, while this deck has a strange mana curve, it also has really excellent card quality. Our one drops are the most aggressive one drops in red, and the rest of our creatures have 2-4 abilities tacked onto bodies that are already on curve.
Main Deck
Rakdos Cackler: A 2/2 for doesn’t need much explaining. He is the most efficient 1 drop in the format. He has the small draw back that he can’t block, but that rarely matters. Late game he can be left on the leash to chump if need be.
Firedrinker Satyr: A 2/1 for R that fire breaths? Move over Stonewright! This card is too good to be true. Oh wait, it is. Firedrinker Satyr has a huge drawback in it’s Jackal Pup clause. However, against control decks and really, non-red decks, you don’t really care. Sometimes it is worth taking six damage for your 1 drop to slay a dragon. Play carefully.
Ash Zealot: Ash Zealot is our lady of choice. She’s a 2/2 Haste, First Strike, which is incredibly efficient. She has been called the best red two drop of all time,
and this might not be much of a stretch. Her third ability is rarely relevant since flashback has rotated out of standard.
[card]Chandra’s Phoenix[/card]: Everyone’s favorite firebird, this little beauty comes with Flying, Haste, and a pretty insane return to battlefield cause. A very high quality card for 3cc.
Chandra, Pyromaster: She’s been called the best card in standard by our dear leader. I’m not sure I’m that in love with her, but she has grown on me. Her +1 is ridiculous, and stunts Jace or recurs her pet Phoenix all day. Her 0 gains you card advantage, and seems much better than underworld connections. Her ultimate also has the ability to do an insane amount of damage in this deck, because if you can flip a lightning strike or a boros charm, they’ll do 9 or 12 damage respectively. That should be enough to close out most games.
Stormbreath Dragon:
Standard’s newest beast. This guy is trying hard to take up Thundermaw Hellkite’s mantle, and in some respects to succeeding. He’s a 4/4, flying haste. That does make him a bit slower / smaller than Thundermaw. However, instead of the anti-lingering souls clause, this guy has protection from white. That means that there are only a handful of ways to deal with him, namely, Elspeth, Black removal, Mizzium Mortars, and Supreme Verdict. All of those cards get blanked by our Boros Charms though. Play carefully, and you can ride him to the win. Oh, I almost forgot. He also has monstrous 3 and can punish your opponent for having a full grip. Icing on the cake.
Lightning Strike: Searing Spear gets a functional reprint. It would be crazy not to play it, right?
Mizzium Mortars: Since we are playing
with a higher land count, overloading this spell is not an unreasonable expectation. This spell also answers problem creatures like Smiter and Blood Baron of Vitzkopa.
Chained to the Rocks: This card is one of the main reasons for the white splash. It removes almost any problem creature and will cost them an enchantment removal spell to remove. This card punks all the Boros Reckoners, Desecration Demons, Voice of Resurgences, Loxodon Smiters and [card]Trostani, Selesnya’s Voice[/card]s of the world. It is also the only really clean answer to the five gods.
Temple of Triumph: The Mono Black Devotion deck at PT: Theros was playing Temple of Silence in a mono-black deck because the
deck builder thought scry 1 was that relevant. We need mana fixing, this is the best we’ve got.
Mutavault: In a 25 land deck, we want 4 of these, since they are our insurance against floods.
Proven Sideboard Options
Frostburn Weird: Not a card I’m crazy about, but others have had success with it. He helps to wall things up VS aggro decks.
[card]Chandra’s Outrage[/card]: Mizzium Mortars 5-8 if you are really worried about Blood Baron of Vitzkopa. Otherwise, [card]Warleader’s Helix[/card] is just better.
Shock: For when you really have to kill a mana dork / hyper aggro.
[card]Wear // Tear[/card]: With God Weapons, Enchantments that fuel devotion and Chained to the Rocks floating around, we want a disenchant effect. A 2 for 1 disenchant
is even better.
Tajic, Blade of the Legion: Indestructible dude that can block all day. Much better in a meta without mutilate and tragic slip. This guy did some work in Adrian Sullivan’s feature matches.
[
spoiler=Cards we might want]Magma Jet: While the scry is nice, this is a slower, more expensive shock. There are many times where there just isn’t a good target for it, and it goes to the dome off a BTE chain. I think this is the most likely card to jump from the “Cards we might play” to “Cards we are playing” list, but we’ll have to find a good reason first.
Pacifism: Answers many problem creatures, but is worse than CttR.
[card]Aurelia’s Fury[/card]: Decent mana dump and a swiss army knife of sorts.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx: Very hit or miss in early testing + legendary. Might be worth a one of, because it can help power
out dragons or make them monstrous. Less consistent than mutavault, lowers card quality.
Imposing Sovereign: If we shave a couple Dragons + Lands and add more plains to the mana base, I see this being another 2cc card worth playing.
Flames of the Firebrand: I hear three for ones are good. If we can find room, I’d love to play these.
Peak Eruption: If three colour mana-bases with mountains become a thing, this card will be waiting.
Burning-Tree Emissary: Great card, but we’re going over, not under or through. While I will miss the free wins, it’s likely better to go with higher card quality.
Firefist Striker: Another great card, but I don’t like it without BTE. We are
going over, not through, so this card is not as important.
Fanatic of Mogis: Again, card quality. Mogis ranges from painfully bad, ot amazingly good based on board state. As control figures things out, this card will become worse and worse.
Hamer of Purphoros: I love this card, but it seriously conflicts with Dragons.
Anger of the Gods: Exiling out Phoenixes / Reckoners seems bad. Probably not worth playing.
Strategy
The strategy while playing this deck changes, based on whether you are the beatdown or not. In some cases, you will have to play the control role, lock up the ground, grind them out, then go over the top. Other times, you will just lay the smackdown in a very straight forward manner, then finish them with top end they can’t answer.
First: Establish if you are the beatdown, or
the control player (See Mike Flores’ article for more). In this meta, I believe:
You are the beatdown vs: - UW Control
- Esper Control
- Naya Control
- Dega Midrange
- B/R Midrange
- Mono Black Devotion
You are the control vs: - Red Aggro
- GW
- Green Aggro
- GR Ramp
- Naya Midrange
- Mono Blue Devotion
Last GPT before GP: Shizuoka. I finished 8th, which is my second consecutive GPT top 8 this season. I'm feeling relatively confident going into the GP on the 21st. Unfortunately I'll only have one BYE, but such is life. My goal for this GP is to have a better record than my last two (5-4) and I'd be totally stoked if I could make Day 2.
Enchantments 5
4 Chained to the Rocks
1 Legion's Initiative
Planeswalker 1
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Sideboard 15
2 Boros Reckoner
2 Last Breath
1 Rod of Ruin
3 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]
There were 44 players for the day. Three of my friends attended too, including forum member solemn10.
Round 1:VS UWR Control (guy from my LGS, I'm about 60% against him)
Game 1: I'm on the play and keeps a reasonable 7, but he just has
every card including Azorious Charm (my least favorite card in standard) and 2x [card]Warleader's Helix[/card]. He ultimates [card]Elspeth, Sun's Champion[/card] with 9 tokens on the board and I concede.
Game 2: Keep 7 on the play. I flood out with five lands in a row, no dragons. He has perfect draws again, and shows me 4x [card]Sphinx's Revelation[/card] in hand with both walkers and Aetherling on the board for the concession.
0-1-0
Round 2:
VS MUD
Game 1: He's on the play and we both keep 7. I get him to 4, stuck on 4 land with the dragon in hand, but I draw Cacklers and Satyrs rather than drawing something useful, he lands a huge master of waves (which was a mistake, he should have just made his guys unblockable to win a turn earlier) but I draw nothing and he gets me.
Game 2: I play the beatdown, hit my dragon on time, but he cracks back with Nightveil Spectre and flips a Mizzium Mortars. This guy was actually playing [
card]Unknown Shores[/card] (tech?) so he could cast the Mortars and kill my dragon. Even though I was on the recieving end, it was too exciting of a play to be angry about. I top another dragon FTW.
Game 3 Play the control. Kill everything. Get there.
1-1-0
Round 3:VS Jund
Game 1: I'm on the play. I play satyr, he plays thoughtseize. I smack him, he plays overgrown tomb (shock in) > Hexproof plant. I beat down while he whifs on lands.
Game 3 I'm on a mull to 6 on the draw.We Chain each other's reckoners, but I have two dragons and he has none.
3-1-0
Round 5:VS All Foil Esper
Game 1: We both keep 7, I'm on the play. It's a very back and forth game, but I have two chains rotting in my hand. His life total is low enough that he has to cast Aetherling without mana up. I hit my 6th land with [card]Elspeth, Sun&
#39;s Champion[/card] and two chains in hand. I make the decision to play Elspeth and tick down, to permanently deal with his Aetherling and avoid Elspeth being countered (perhaps incorrect?). I was worried about Dsphere on Chain if I Chained and attacked with mutavault. He plays a mix of Revs and Verdicts / Dspheres for the next 5 turns, but I eventually get him.
Sideboard: +3 Skullcrack, +3 Boros Charm, -2 Boros Reckoner, -4 Chained to the Rocks
Game 2:Azorious Charms T2 + 3 destroy my tempo enough for him to stabilize. I really hate that card.
Game 3 He stumbles on three land, I beat face with dragon, making it monstrous FTW.
4-1-0
Round 6:VS B/R Aggro (forum member Solemn10)
ID: I actually feel really bad about this. We did the math and determined we would both Top 8 if we ID'd, but there was one other player that could mathematically get to 13 points and then it would come down to breakers. Our breakers were much better than his, so we thought we were safe. Somehow he beat both of us for 7th seed, I was knocked to 8th, Solemn10 was knocked to 9th. Sorry Bro. 4-1-1
Quarter Finals:VS Esper (eventual winner)
Game 1: I'm on the play, we both keep 7. This guy couldn't have better draws if he stacked his deck. Three Devour Flesh in a row, the doom blades, [card]hero's downfall[/card] etc.
Sideboard: +3 Skullcrack, +3 Boros Charm, -2 Boros Reckoner, -4 Chained to the Rocks
Game 2: Game 2 plays out the same,
except he answers T5, T6, T7 dragons.
Guy was super nice / friendly and humble, and admitted he had god draws, so it's hard to be mad about it. I wished him luck in the next round and tried to be a good loser.
4-2-1
Johnny_Spike, 95th Place at GP:Shizuoka on 12/22/2013
Spells (15)
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Sideboard (15)
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Assemble the Legion
n1 Chained to the Rocks
3 Boros Charm
2 Last Breath
3 Shock[/deck]
I had one BYE from Planeswalker Points.
Round 1:BYE
1-0-0
Round 2:VS MUD
Game 1: My opponent is on the play and mull'd to five. I luckily had a hand that was very burn heavy. I kill everything he casts and kill him with vaults / dragon.
Game 2: He's on the play, we both keep 7. I have turn 2 ash Zealot. He plays T3 Thrassa. I
play T3 Phoenix. He plays 2x Tidebinder Mage and gets in for 5. I play 2x burn spells. He plays T5Nightveil Spectre + Tidebinder Mage, gets in for 5. I play turn 5 double burn spells. He's gassed and I draw a dragon FTW.
2-0-0
Round 3:VS UW Control
Game 1: I play through 3 Last Breath and two [card]Elspeth, Sun's Champion[/card] and get him with 2x Dragons. I was on 30 life.
Game 2: He's on the play, we both keep 7. I stick on 4 lands with 3x Dragons in hand and he beats me down with [card]
Aetherling[/card], Mutavaults and Elspeth tokens while I fail to draw a land or a burn spell (he was at 2 life).
Game 3: I'm on the play, he mulls to six. I have a hand that curves perfectly, and just get him.
3-0-0
Round 4:VS GR Monsters
Game 1: Very close, but I kill his Domri's and draw more Dragons than he did. Very close race.
Game 2: I make a couple of silly play mistakes (like not jetting Reverent Hunter before he gets the counters). He is a pro player and you can't make mistakes against them.
Game 3: I'm on the play, we both keep out 7. Things are going fairly well until T4. I Magma Jet him at the end of his turn because I need a land to cast Assemble the Legion. We mark the damage and I scry, then say end (meaning the end of his turn). He says "End?" and I say yes (I was confused why he was asking). He untaps and draws his card, while I sit there with my mouth open. Did he really just time walk me because of a miscommunication? I tell him, "Um, what about my turn?" and he's like "Well, I already drew my card." I call the judge who fixes the situation by taking the card (which I could identify&#
41; and shuffling his deck. There were no warnings (and I admit the miscommunication was mostly my fault) but I still think what he did was scummy and probably warranted a game loss. You opponent miscommunicating doesn't mean you skip their turn. After that, I cast my Assemble (I was pretty far behind) and Overloaded a mortars the following turn to leave him with just a Polukranos, World Eater (6/6). I was at 6. I made my soldiers, drew a land and passed the turn. He only had two mountains in play, so an overloaded Mortars wasn't going to happen hopefully. It was the only out I had, since I didn't draw a Chain all match. He tops a mortars and mortars each of my soldiers, then cracks in for match.
3-1-0
Round 5:VS Boss Sligh
Game 1: Both Mull to 6, he's on the play. I
manage to stabilize and he is gassed while I beat him to death with 2x Dragons.
Game 2: I don't draw shock and hit a variety of citp tapped lands. I can't stabilize. He gets me.
Game 3: I flood, can't stabilize and he gets me. On one life I top a Mizzium Mortars and use it on his Madcap Skills'd [card]Ash
Zealot[/card], but am tilting so hard I forget to overload. I have a dragon on Defense, but he has another 2/2 and draws a second Zealot ftw.
3-2-0
At this point I went outside, took a breather and ate. Lesson learned. Eat after every second round. With my back against the wall, I went back in.
Round 6:VS Quasi-Mirror (His was burn heavier, less creatures. I think it's the Starcity List) (Pro Player from Malaysia)
Game 1: I'm on the play and have a reasonable start, but he just burns all my stuff. Warleader's Helix on my Firedrinker Satyr put things out of reach.
Game 2: Curve out and lay the smack down with dragon.
Game 3: incredibly close game, comes down to me scrying and stacking my deck Ash Zealot then Magma Jet (I'm on two life). I play Zealot and get in. He tops Magma Jet and domes me for two (lethal). I respond with Last Breath targeting my Ash Zealot to stay alive and Magma Jet him with the card I left on top for lethal.
4-2-0
Round
7:VS Orzhov Aggro
Game 1: I'm on the play and have a burn heavy hand. I just grind him out, then dragon him.
Game 2: Tripple one drop, two mountains and two burn spells in my opener. Just get him.
Game 3: I get a warning. I was looking away when I was shuffling my opponent's deck and handed it back to him face up by mistake .
This was the most difficult game of the entire tournament. He had Whip of Erebus and I had Assemble the Legion, but I
was very low from Gary + Whip the Gary after he sacced to his own demon. I had to use Assemble very defensively (he had 4x Mutavault in play). I won on the second turn of extra turns with roughly 10 Soldiers and three other creatures in play. At any point I was dead to Gary or Ratchet Bomb. This one was really tough.
8-2-0
Here's a picture:
As you can see, the judge is there counting turns and I have like 10 soldiers.
Game 3: I mull to 4. Opening hand was one temple of triumph, all 4cc+ stuff. 6 was 2x Mutavault, no other lands. 5 was no land. 4 was 2x Mountain,Firedrinker Satyr and a Magma Jet. I put up the best fight I could, but it was not going to happen.
8-3-0
Round 12:VS Bg Devotion
Game 1: Opponent mulls and I am on the play. I have the nuts (
Tripple one drop, two mountains and two burn spells) and just run him over.
Game 2: He mulls to 6 and I draw like I stacked my deck (top deck Chained to the Rocks the turn after he casts the Boros Reckoner with a second [card]Chandra's Phoenix[/card]... Okay )
Game 3:Chandra, Pyromaster does some serious work, but also get me in heat. I use the zero, exile an Ash Zealot, tap my mana for the zealot and reach over my deck to my exile pile, barely brushing the top of the deck and flipping the top card up slightly (not enough to see it). Opponent calls the judge, but the
judge is my friend so I knew I'd get a fair ruling. The judge said since I didn't see it was ok. Lucky my opponent didn't appeal, because I think after the first warning I could have got a game loss if he had. Chandra's zero ability gave me a tonne of card advantage and kept him focussed on something other than my life total. Her +1 doubled up with a Lightning Strike to shoot down a dragon. When we were both gassed and drawing off the top, Chandra was amazing. My dragons got him.
10-4-0
Round 15:ID
We ID'd to ensure more money since we were mathematically out of the top 16 and Pro Tour invites. I was exhausted anyway. Ended up with $250 USD .
10-4-1
This is my friend Jaramiah (left) and I (right) after
Day 2 wrapped up. He just missed day two.
this deck. Thank you to all contributors. You guys totally rock. Look forward to working with you in the future.
Let me know if you have any questions
Thanks to all those interested in the deck. I hope to develop it with you guys this season. Happy Hunting.
Last edited by Lightning_Dolt on Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:27 pm, edited 35 times in total.
What do you forsee the easiest/hardest matchups to be? Basically same as PyroRed?
Also, I see Wear // Tear in Jansen's and Sullivan's SB, but don't see it mentioned in your sideboarding guide. When would you bring it in, and what would you replace?
Have you considered Peak Eruption in place of Burning Earth for Naya and Dega, and perhaps using that spot for Wear // Tear vs. Esper/Junk to destroy that stupit Whip of Erebos?
Just wondering as every time I play BE against Esper it gets D-Sphered (another good target for Wear // Tear, btw) and only ends up hitting them for 1 or 2. I'd like to get more out of a 4-drop than that ( I know, it can stall them too and that's value. But still...). Peak Eruption at least guarantees you 3 against Naya/Dega and can recur the birds.
Last edited by Zooligan on Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
I played a little bit of this deck and quite a bit of pyroboros and just wanted to add my thougts that i have liked the chained mainboard over the mortars more. This may be due to running into far more demon decks than blood baron decks online though. Having an answer to almost every card as well as possibly grabbing that unwavering courage'd wurm is really nice.
Very interesting. Almost identical to PyroBoros. I wonder how this feels in comparison to PyroBoros. Thanks for the write up, I'll have to play with this a bit!
Nice primer JS! I have been very interested in this deck after seeing the Sullivan deck tech at the open. This is for sure a deck I could get behind and hopefully it can hold its place in the metagame for the foreseeable future.
Sweet primer!
I was under-valueing the dragon a lot because his smaller body compared to his brother from m13 (silly me, right!)
Then today I had it played against me in a daily, oddly enough for the first time, while trying out the dega midrange deck. Then another one. And another one. I think the going over approach is definitely something I want to to look into, and I am already kinda on the white splash in my Pyro deck
The deck runs really well but I've been running Z's latest
PyroBoros over it of late due to the large amount of B I keep running into - I don't know if this is indicative of the MTGO meta in general or just luck in my match ups though.
I think you have covered the card options available pretty well and I'd agree with them overall. I do think that I think Magma Jet is a must for the deck though, scry 2 is that good IMHO and Warleader's Helix is also amazing - good against Aggro and Control (although I've still only faced 1 Control deck post Theros) and way better than Chandra's Outrage IMHO
I'll play the deck some more; smashing people with Dragons is always fun , and post my testing results
Last edited by LaZerBurn on Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
@ Zooligan I think that basically all the match ups should become easier because you are relying less on synergy and more on individual card quality. A good player can break up devotion by killing your reckoner etc. If you just play a high quality card each turn, it's bound to be harder on them. The sideboarding was just a quick brainstorm, which will need to be updated with testing. It's all just theory at this point. I think you want wear // tear against anything with Whip, Hammer, Bident, Dsphere, or Chained. I think BGurning Earth is better vs the field. Esper is still a good deck, and BE cripples them. Peak Eruption is better vs decks with mountains, if they draw mountains. If they have the all scry lands draw, you'll be disappointed.
@ Narcasus That might be correct. I like the idea of overloading the mortars to sweep their board a lot too though.
@ Kerftenk I don't want to offend dear leader, but I think
Stormbreath Dragon is very well positioned right now, and is probably stronger than young pyromancer. I look forward to playing the deck and getting some results we can quantify.
@ PrimalBurn I think the deck looks very strong VS the meta (until it shifts).
@ KS Thank you. Think we can convince you to splash white and play with us?
@ Tyreal How much are dragons where you are? They've held their value at Y3000 - Y4000 here. I wouldn't be playing them if I hadn't cracked three.
@ Chma You wrre playing Dega? How did the matchup feel? Did you have any way to deal with the three dragons outside mizzium mortars / Doomblade / hero's downfall?
@ laserburn Be careful not to call this boros deck wins. That was a deck back during original Ravnica and was a list that topped out at three cc. I'm open to names other than Big Boros (Boros Sledge or Sunforger come to mind). If you want to choose a different name, we can. Magma Jet might be correct (I really like scry) but I want to start with a stock
list. Also, I think Charm covers us a lot better than Magma Jet does. Magma Jet is another shock, and filters, but doesn't give us the options charm does. WLH seems very good. Please help us develop by posting your results here.
@ The group! Glad to see so much interest! I'll be playing the deck this weekend at FNM and Saturday / Sunday Game Day tournaments. I'll likely fight the hydra too. Will post results here afterward. If you guys are also testing the deck, please post reports etc. here so we can work on the deck together. Excited to see this deck become a thing!
[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=125207#p125207:3n0nwyfn]Yarpus » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:52 pm[/url:3n0nwyfn]":3n0nwyfn]Firemane Avenger maye? She has the chance in your deck... and you know what happens when this thing starts to swinging.[/quote:3n0nwyfn]
I would like [card:3n0nwyfn]Firemane Avenger[/card:3n0nwyfn] if we were playing with BTE, FFS and hammer and it was the top of the curve instead of Stormbreath. You'd have to build the deck more around her. I feel like she could potentially get away with some naughty stuff.
However, I still think that is more of a synergy card, and goes against the "every card in this deck is independently good" mantra. I think she has a lot of the same issues [card:3n0nwyfn]Fanatic of Mogis[/card:3n0nwyfn] has. She's pretty horrible if you can keep her off battalion.
@ Kerftenk I don't want to offend dear leader, but I think Stormbreath Dragon is very well positioned right now, and is probably stronger than young pyromancer. I look forward to playing the deck and getting some results we can quantify.
I very much look forward to your results then! I'm playing PyroBoros right now, but I don't know if I should drop the money down for the SBD just to see how different this deck can interact with others. I am very curious of the comparison to Z's list though.
Saw you post the link to this over on MtGS and LOVE the work you have put into it here. Some good points of view I hadn't thought of before.
My current list I have been slightly tweaking since release but overall not much has changed.
[DECK]
Creatures:
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Ash Zealot
2 Fanatic of Mogis
2 Ember Swallower
Sideboard:
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Celestial Flare
2 Wear // Tear
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Renounce the Guilds
2 Skullcrack
[/DECK]
Now I have been in the Top 4
every week since the release. But now am trying to figure out about what to change in place of the Fanatic of Mogis(which after reading here I realized caused me to over commit or under commit trying to be fancy with devotion) and the hammer. This leaves me 3 slots open, I was considering getting a 3rd Chandra but kinda leaning towards adding a 4th Dragon, 4th Reckoner and 2nd Charm. Just hoping for an opinion.
Yeah, Stormbreath is no joke at all. Quietly one of the best cards in the format. I want at least 1 more white source than Sullivan had though ~ come on, I get more in my 23 land sligh deck!
1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
3 - Bragpost zem
4 - Confident and funny zem
5 - Condescending jerk zem
6 - Self-aware zem
Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame,
Bona fide hustler making my name
Saw you post the link to this over on MtGS and LOVE the work you have put into it here. Some good points of view I hadn't thought of before.
My current list I have been slightly tweaking since release but overall not much has changed.
[DECK]
Creatures:
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Ash Zealot
2 Fanatic of Mogis
2 Ember Swallower
Sideboard:
1 Chained to the Rocks
n2 Celestial Flare
2 Wear // Tear
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Renounce the Guilds
2 Skullcrack
[/DECK]
Now I have been in the Top 4 every week since the release. But now am trying to figure out about what to change in place of the Fanatic of Mogis(which after reading here I realized caused me to over commit or under commit trying to be fancy with devotion) and the hammer. This leaves me 3 slots open, I was considering getting a 3rd Chandra but kinda leaning towards adding a 4th Dragon, 4th Reckoner and 2nd Charm. Just hoping for an opinion.
Welcome aboard.
Here are my thoughts on your list:
Fanatic of Mogis: See Primer
Ember Swallower: Seems underwhelming, as it will be a vanilla 4/5 most of the time.
Burn Package: Seems kind of unfocused
Legion's Initiative: Not sure why you need this
Hammer: Non-bo with Dragons
Elspeth: Forces you to play enough white you will have some hands where you can't cast your red stuff.
Celestial Flare:
WW will be hard to cast.
Anyway, hope that doesn't come off as harsh. Everyone here will help you as long as you're willing to contribute. Welcome to the forum.
Fanatic of Mogis: See Primer
Ember Swallower: Seems underwhelming, as it will be a vanilla 4/5 most of the time.
Burn Package: Seems kind of unfocused
Legion's Initiative: Not sure why you need this
Hammer: Non-bo with Dragons
Elspeth: Forces you to play enough white you will have some hands where you can't cast your red stuff.
Celestial Flare: WW will be hard to cast.
Anyway, hope that doesn't come off as harsh. Everyone here will help you as long as you're willing to contribute. Welcome to the forum.
Not harsh at all, we're all here to help further this deck style along. Hopefully can explain some of my lines of thought.
I agree with Mogis, past
couple weeks I either almost made some stupid moves trying to get him down for good damage or he would just come as a 1-2 damage poke. He's being cut for sure.
Swallower, a lot of larger critters in my area so I like having him pop up time to time and seeing him survive the surprise 4/4 while taking it out.
Burn I am still working on the right balance. I want the scry to help smooth things out but it's something I have been toying with week to week just about.
Initiative I just like as a pseudo-anthem that can save things from a wipe in a pinch. A personal choice that I have, seen people not understand it exists when I pop it in response to a verdict.
Hammer: Being cut as well. Was another card I wasn't ever too happy with/ever saw.
As for Elspeth and Flare I have never had an issue getting the lands needed to get my red out or getting to the WW for when I side in Flare.
1. Does Reckoner belong in the main, or should he just come in SB against aggro?
2. Is Magma Jet a must have MB?
3. Is CttR a must have MB?
4. 8 white sources (of which 4 come in tapped) enough?
5. Is 4 Mutavault going to cause us to stumble on mana (especially with the tap lands)?
1. I think reckoner probably does belong in the main. He's good in all non-control match ups.
2. No, as evidenced by our two example lists.
3. See 2.
4. Probably not. I think 2 Boros Guildgates might be correct. When I won a GPT last winter playing Boros, I considered 11 sources of white to be minimum. We are splashing less white in this build, so 10 might be about right. Question becomes, basic plains, or guildgates? There are benefits to both.
5. Yes and no. It will in some games, but usually not.
Wasn't sure if those questions were thread-worthy there J_S
On the Magma Jet thing, I'm not sure we can always take the pro lists as evidence of must-haves (really should have said should-haves). Example: In the Devotion Red lists, on here it seems to have been accepted that running BTE and Ash Zealot together is sub-optimal, yet all the placing red dev lists in the tournies the last couple weeks have had just that.
I have all the cards to go Boros, and I'm pretty tempted to just sleeve up Sullivan's and roll with it, but I REEAALLLLYY hate lands that come into play tapped.
I've had quite a few good games with my Mono Red Dragon list, but I don't want to just automatically dismiss Boros so I'm sure I'll sleeve up something during my next playtest session.
In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.
I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.
@ Chma You wrre playing Dega? How did the matchup feel? Did you have any way to deal with the three dragons outside mizzium mortars / Doomblade / hero's downfall?
From just the 2 games I can't tell much. The first game I thought it was just regular rdw and felt safe after removing his early threats, then promptly lost to his dragon. Game 2 I feel I should have respected the dragons more, but went ahead and used some of my better removal on his early drops. Dega has a lot of possible answers, most is sorcery speed though (well, I've seen some lists run 3-4 hero's downfall and some number of doom blades, I only run 3 instant killspells total).
It feels like it gives up some early game consistency for more lategame (duh), but I'm not
sure what I feel is better against dega, though.
This is my first post here, although I've been following the discussion here closely since I've returned to MtG after 10 years of pause this April. It just felt awesome finding a place with the people favoring the best color of all time.
I am currently playing Big Boros, although my version is more midrangy/controllish than the ones that are shown in the primer. More like what John Bagley was playing at the same SGC Open as Sullivan (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=59838). I do not MD Angers (have them in SB) and the decklist is different (i posted it on MTGS since I've made my first 4-0 in MTGO daily with it, can post it here later if anyone wishes), but the main idea is the same - control the game against aggro/midrange while taking on the beatdown approach with the more controllish
decks (mainly Dega/Uxx control).
I have one glaring question regarding these 2 different approaches to the deck:
Are 1 drops really needed? I've been doing relatively fine without them although I admit i am having some problems with the MonoBlue Devotion deck appearing everywhere (so far 4-6, 2 of those to glaring mistakes on my part). Does the more aggresive approach have better game against this deck (because I almost feel like playing full control against them with their plethora of creatures that just has to be removed else the damned Master/Thassa overrun me)?
I am not really planning on switching to 1 drops right now since I won't have time to test it (and make myself comfortable with it) before the next big tourney here (this Saturday) and I really don't want to try something new after spending so much time tuning. I just wanted to... well... make some food for thought.
Either way, really happy that this got a primer here.
Wasn't sure if those questions were thread-worthy there J_S
On the Magma Jet thing, I'm not sure we can always take the pro lists as evidence of must-haves (really should have said should-haves). Example: In the Devotion Red lists, on here it seems to have been accepted that running BTE and Ash Zealot together is sub-optimal, yet all the placing red dev lists in the tournies the last couple weeks have had just that.
It's hard to get the right feel for it, the scry is nice but the 2 damage can feel very underwhelming at times. I end up swapping it out at times for my SB burn, especially for Mortars vs GW. Nothing like seeing them be able to
monster a Lion next turn and all you have is 2 damage in hand.
As for BTE in Dev decks I have seen more people want it just because it's a "free" spell to pump devotion.
We could call it Boros Lightning Storm. It mostly fits the wizards policy of just pasting names next to each other and calling it a red card; deck in our case.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.
@ Zooligan: I'm going to use a stock list as a base point, and go from there. I do love me some scry.
@KS: Join us!
@ Tyreal: You could play:Scourge of Vraskas, Warleader's Helix and Boros Guildgates as budget options until you can afford the good stuff.
@Chma: Thanks for the feedback
@ NerdBoyWonder: Thank you! The banner fucking rocks.
@ Jedi Knight: Please share your list, and thanks for joining us. I think the one drops are kind of a meta choice. For me personally, my meta is filled with control. I want them there.
@ Dpaine: I thought big boros was appropriate, because it is decidedly bigger than PyroBoros. We can choose a new name.
and be done with them?
.
) 
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Was another card I wasn't ever too happy with/ever saw.
