[Primer] PyroRed

[Keftenk]

You PyroBoros players, have you guys ever had games (possibly not in the same match) of being fucked on the wrong colors of mana you need? I've run into a problem where I'd have white and red sources, with Phoenix and Reckoner draws. Unable to draw another red or white source for the life of me, only drawing into Mutavault lol. I understand that this is just possible bad draws, but it has happened a few times now. Should I not be taking a hand if I see that single Plains? Perhaps its how "terrible" Cockatrice's shuffler is, but I seem to get that single Plains all the time lol.

[zemanjaski]

The deck has 20 natural red sources, I don't know what you want to hear.

[Helios]

@NerdBoy: Play the one you are most comfortable with. That being said, I wouldn't play Pyro without having put in a significant number of games with it to understand how the deck ticks.

[Narcasus]

@NerdBoy: Play the one you are most comfortable with. That being said, I wouldn't play Pyro without having put in a significant number of games with it to understand how the deck ticks.

I would have to second this, first playing pyro red made me think i had no idea how to play the game for the first 10 or so games.

[NerdBoyWonder]

@NerdBoy: Play the one you are most comfortable with. That being said, I wouldn't play Pyro without having put in a significant number of games with it to understand how the deck ticks.

Thats what I gather and will probably play after this weekend. Local meta pretty much is 2 Esper Control, Big Red, whatever I decide to play, and homebrews. Pretty much just need to beat Esper control.

[windstrider]

How exactly did you go about handing the Dos Rakis thread over to Nuwen? Would Z be able to do it as a standard mod, or would we have to get admin to do it?

The admin handled that for me.

[windstrider]

If you're going to try to fit Reckoner in PyroRakdos, then replace the basic swamps with Godless Shrines. Just watch out for the life loss involved with running that many shocklands.

Edit: what is up with the quote function all of a sudden?

[zemanjaski]

With scrylands as well I want nothing to do with that manabase.

[photodyer]

*swoons*

Helios,

If you want anything added to the original post as freedom was discussing, Alex or I can edit it. I'm not volunteering Alex for duty, but he and James are mods over the Standard forum and thus have purview. James already gave you the nod to take up the reins, so just PM Prince Eric or me anything you want added/tweaked. Freedom of course can do it as well since the original post is his.

EDIT: I'll also look into giving you ownership of the thread...I haven't poked around in that aspect of the admin and mod panels yet but I'm sure I can find it.

[windstrider]

Oh, I'm not saying it's desirable, but that would be the way to go if you want to fit Reckoner in there.

And that's probably the biggest strike against PyroRakdos: the risk vs. reward factor just isn't high enough. The white splash has better options.

[photodyer]

Yeah, windstrider, you have to know that I took a hard look at "the dark side" when James started building the archetype. Reckoner basically becomes the minotaur soul brother of [card]Geralf's Messenger[/card] in a RB manabase. Splashing pretty much hits a hard deck of 8 black sources, and with that you're still having to deal with all the CIPT chuckles to do it. If we had black scrylands it might be a worthwhile risk/benefit to compare, but I think white holds the edge for now. Besides, BR seems more suited for the screaming in-and-out aggro a la Nuwen or dedicated midrange with demons into dragons and burning up everything else on the field.

[zemanjaski]

Boros Reckoner is a good magic card, Geralf's Messenger was proven not to be.

[LP, of the Fires]

Geralf's messenger was a card for a while. Then Junk Rites. Also pillar.

And hurry up and fix your stream Zem. Think of how much easier it would be to just have people watch you play instead of having to explain everything

@Everyone: I'm probably going to be less active, so if anyone wants info from me, PM's work best. This should only be relevant if Zem isn't around though since anything I could explain, Z can do it clearer, or at least, in less words.

[zemanjaski]

It was always the stupid little brother to the best deck in the format at the time:
- UW Delver;
- Jund:
- Junk Rites; and
- Jund again.
The only time it was 'the best deck' was at States last year, which as we know is a prolific prognosticator of the future metagame.

[LP, of the Fires]

I think Zombies was the best deck at the VERY END of Delver standard, like around the first WMC. Mortarpod was a good, underrated magic card.

But overall, I agree with your assessment even though, post states last year, there wasn't really ever a consistent "best deck" from week to week imo.

[photodyer]

Boros Reckoner is a good magic card, Geralf's Messenger was proven not to be.

Discounting any value judgments about Messenger as a card, I was referring strictly to the casting cost being identical in terms of mana limitations to Reckoner in an RB build, where his cost is essentially . Beyond that, Reckoner and Messenger would be comparison-wise like discussing apples and hand grenades...they simply don't have the same applications such that there's any reasonable criteria for evaluating them against one another.

[JWarson88]

Hey everyone, haven't been around much this week due to being promoted at my job. unfortunately that means less time to be active in the forums until we find another cook. However I wanted to congratulate all the redbros that were able to represent this weekend. This season has only seemed to get better as we have a diverse set of red decks to choose from. For that I think the clan and the members who make that happen. From everything ive read in the forums here about the PT it seems we are in for another meta shift. at this point do we need to make a new list for what appears to be a possibly midrangy meta, or are we able to refine the lists that we got. Also while I'm at it, I don't recall if this was already requested, but Zeman at some point in your RDW videos could you talk about how to predict a metagame? whats your best bet for going into an unkown metagame? I know the concept has atleast been mentioned, but again not sure if it has been covered in depth.

Keep your cocks flaming my friends.

[LP, of the Fires]

I'll throw my opinion:

Unknown Meta, play something powerful and proactive. You can play control in an unknown field, you just need to make sure your doing powerful things and have broad answers coupled with a superior win-con.

After a major event, testing should be done to find out what wholes are present in the new decks as pro tour decklists tend to be built for very specific fields(Esper Spirit delver being an example). You want to identify the decks with so-called "staying power" and add them to your testing gauntlet.

My personal Gauntlet would include:

Mono Blue Waves(Finals of the PT was a mirror match and it seems good vs. everything vs. control with a sideboard that fixes that)

R/X agro

GR monsters

Esper Control

Whatever B/x midrange deck you expect(BW, Junk, RB, Dega, they're all similar in that they play doom blade, thoughtseize, and Desecration Demon and you will play this type
of deck in a tourney).

[Yarpus]

I just want to remind you that Exava has Haste.
Haste = being fine against removal.
Having haste, being able to survive most of R-based removal and Doom Blade = being even better against removal.

[Draksil]

I kinda feel like we just surrender to MoW builds then Yarpus? You could try and build it and test it, would be cool

[photodyer]

Yarpus, as much as I love RB/BR and Exava in a vacuum, you've been spamming her tonight like the Second Coming. Nuwen has been running her in her Black Rakdos list since its inception, and she can tell you that the card is not a panacea for the challenges facing red decks. I don't think she adds anything to Pyro Red and she makes the deck more top-heavy.

[photodyer]

Helios - You now have ownership of the Primer. You should be able to edit it just as you can any other post you own. Note that I took the liberty of adding a small blurb crediting all of you who have contributed in specific to breathing life into the Primer...indeed a worthy shared accomplishment.

[Helios]

Good blurb photo, thanks for adding that! Looks like everything works fine and dandy.

[stephan]

Atm i dont think that Rb has the right cards to reach the versatiblity and stability of Rw. But with the next Theros Block set/sets we are getting the matching Scry Lands and WotC gave Black very nice stuff in Theros, that i look forward to see some nice additions to our card pool.

@Keftenk: Because of the splash i had a few mulligans and sometimes had to wait a turn to play a card. But i think thats the price to pay for the white additions and sometimes the scry1 already compensates it. Only a start hand of perfect 5+ Muta and Plains is very dissapointing.

[Helios]

If anyone can find the stray bracket that is preventing me from naming decks in the original post, it would be much appreciated.

[Elricity]

And no offence, it's hypocritical to argue that the text of one card is sufficient to be worth mentioning and dismissing another card that sees inclusion for the same reason. It seems trite to tell me that the text of the cards are actually different though.

Reckoner is better for grindy matchups. Reckoner is better against creatures.
Exava is better against removal.
After ProTour people will be all about removal.

The pyro deck is generally more comfortable playing the grindy game which is why Reckoner tends to be a better fit. From experience, the card that kills Pyro more than any is Rakdos Returns as it shuts off the card advantage engine cold.

[Helios]

If they don't hit you with a lethal Rak, it usually isn't a problem. Remember that you can respond to it with a burn, and getting two Phoenix back can screw up their math.

[Purp]

Anyone have significant testing verse mono blue? How do we fair?

[Elricity]

If they don't hit you with a lethal Rak, it usually isn't a problem. Remember that you can respond to it with a burn, and getting two Phoenix back can screw up their math.

Typically I'm hit with it when I'm tapped out casting one of the Chandra types and it's generally around turn 5. I should test against it more and see. Then again I'm not playing one drops in mine so perhaps that's the issue.

[Helios]

If it is turn 5, they can't kill your Chandra with the damage. So what's the issue?

[Elricity]

Generally it's dead the turn after that and at best, I'm 1+1 Chandra exile cards to their 4 with an empty board.

Mind you I've only seen it three times so perhaps I haven't had enough experience to play through it by pressuring them earlier.

[Helios]

Same; the few times I've played against it, they were practically dead anyway.

[Elricity]

Fair enough. I've tried not to play into Anger or immediate removal but that's clearly the wrong call if they're planning on stripping the hand. Putting them in a postiion where casting Rakdos is likely to kill them makes sense.

[Helios]

Just watch their mana. More often than not, they can't cast Anger until turn 4, so you can play a little loose to get them within range of your burn.

[Jack]

We should use the version that I had in the primer as the sample list instead of the one currently up there, the reason being that it is the basis for my sideboard guide (really the only explicit one in the thread for the mono red version) and zem and LP's matchup guide. It might not be as good, but it's more practical.

[Helios]

Thanks for the input redbro! I generalized the SB of the sample deck more, and your original list is included in your SB guide. Other than Skullcrack and the singleton hammer, Z and LP's guide should apply to the sample deck as well.

Once I get some beef into the primer, it will explain the different options in detail so that folks can mix-and-match to taste. Yarpus helped a bro out and sent me his primer- I'll be editing and adding to that this weekend.

[LP, of the Fires]

Not that it's that important, but Z's current deck is 4 peak eruption, 0 assembles.

I'm personally am running the sideboard on the first page. The difference between the 1 peak eruption vs. 1 assemble is that 4 peaks let you more consistently go runner, runner, win against red based midrange decks while Assemble gives you another card that can be played in a greater spread of matchups and can quickly take over a game if unanswered.

It's about 5% either way, build your board appropriately to what you expect to play against.

[hamfactorial]

Assemble has been such a blowout against the black-based control decks, I wouldn't ever want to remove it.

[Helios]

I know Z was facing a lot of Dega & Gruul online, hence the 4 Peak Eruption. Assemble will increase in value soon, when black Devotion starts to spread.

[zemanjaski]

It honestly feels like I'm facing sonething different every day right now.