Kaze's Newbie Mafia (Mafia Win)

[imopen2]

No, we have a Jailer. :nod:

How do you figure?

[imopen2]

Never mind, I misread jail keeper...

[Iso]

This feels off. It's like he feels pressured to place his vote on Suga to "seem townie". And it's the hammer.

I 100% agree that it felt like he was pressured here. I took that to mean that Suga was his buddy. But what does that mean when Suga flipped town? He was probably the easiest mislynch target I've ever seen - everyone was sure he was scum. Why would scum need to be pressured into making that vote?

Maybe he felt staying away from the wagon would garner scrutiny since he was, in fact, in support of the Suga wagon?

I'm
much more inclined to go after RedNihilist today for his Suga wagon jump and his later refusal to engage with a simple question. Add "waiting to see what happens before committing to anything Day 2" to the list as well. I don't have time today, but I'll probably throw down a proper case come Monday.

I would support a Red wagon, too.

And no, I'm not fishing. Are you?

[Stardust]

No. Just cut it out. Newbies or not they might actually be smart enough to figure this stuff out.

[Iso]

Well I just got a PM back from Kaze that disappointed me, so we might not have a Jailer after all.

[Kazekirimaru]

Just to avoid any further confusion and unnecessary PMs(I've gotten a couple now)

All night actions were processed.

[imopen2]

I will be out of town for the next two days, probably drunk. I will try to keep up on my phone

[TubeHunter]

TubeHunter is my target for today after rereading day 1. Case coming in a bit.

I'd love to hear it.


Just re-reading things and thinking for right now, but I have some suspicions

[Iso]

Do state them for our benefit.

[TubeHunter]

My phone wouln't do them justice, so I will save the big one till tomorrow morning.

But I am looking at Checkbox, Nihilist, and You alot more closely

[Checkbox]

Case will most likely be made sometime over the weekend. Just FYI.

[rcwraspy]

So, my issues with redcoloredwizard:

From what I can tell Iso's really coming out of the gates quickly here. I honestly have no idea what to make of that, but I also don't quite understand the vote for Checkbox. Could it be because of familiarity from previous games?

This post completely rubs me the wrong way. It tries really hard to keep options open. Basically, rcw could say, upon explanation, "Oh, well, then I'll vote [Iso or Checkbox]!" depending on reception to my start, as well as how people reacted to my Checkbox rationale.

Ah, right. I only explained why it's not scummy, not why it's townie. Maybe you can tell me. What motivation would townIso have for posting something like that?

Well, if someone comes galloping in agreeing but using the wrong color, that would sure be a big sign. I guess the next logical thing to look at from there is why checkbox seemed to take exception to it.

But I know where TubeHunter is coming from. I feel like we need some more discourse in here to get the clues flowing.

Too agreeable, too uninvested in doing, well, anything.

That said, I didn't like Stardust's post where he quoted 2 of Suga's posts and bolded parts (bottom of page 2). That seemed like splitting hairs. I've liked his other posts re: Suga, but that one struck me as odd.

*Rolls up a newspaper and baps you on the nose.*

I hope that's not you telling me that you suspect Stardust as Suga's scumbuddy. Can you clarify?

I simply meant that I didn't understand the distinction he was trying to make. We're dissecting Suga's posts and at least most of us are leaning scum on Suga, but pointing to those 2 posts and calling them contradictory didn't seem like a strong
indictment. Could it be busing? I suppose maybe, if I understand the concept, but I think you (Iso) and Stardust have both put yourselves in the "likely town" camp so far - at least through Day 1.

More keeping options open.

Hi all,

I'm back. A lot of law school reading to do today, but I'll be posting on and off. Just caught up on the reading.

@ Iso. From what I can tell you've got some strong reads going. So far I understand where you're coming from on Suga and RedNihilist. Thanks for the explanation on contradictory posts with no backup regarding why - helpful to use along with Stardust's search by poster in a thread to hunt with.

@ TubeHunter. you're new here too, right? I like your insights so far as well.

I'm ready to lynch Suga whenever the rest of you are. From there, Im going to want to hear more from RedNihilist, Checkbox, and Clownfish. I didn't understand Iso's first post for a bit either, so Checkbox's first post isn't completely incriminating from what I can tell, but it sure does lean in that direction.

Throwing suspicion without explanation, etc.

I'm sorry for the lack of content, but I don't know how to read into things the way you guys do quite yet and I've been on airplanes today.

rcwraspy feels too apologetic here. Town tend to
do the best they can regardless of how much they suck. Scum tend to have a guilty conscience and apologize to compensate for their "bad" reads or lack of content.

That said, I didn't like Stardust's post where he quoted 2 of Suga's posts and bolded parts (bottom of page 2). That seemed like splitting hairs. I've liked his other posts re: Suga, but that one struck me as odd.

*Rolls up a newspaper and baps you on the nose.*

I hope that's not you telling me that you suspect Stardust as Suga's
scumbuddy. Can you clarify?

I simply meant that I didn't understand the distinction he was trying to make. We're dissecting Suga's posts and at least most of us are leaning scum on Suga, but pointing to those 2 posts and calling them contradictory didn't seem like a strong indictment. Could it be busing? I suppose maybe, if I understand the concept, but I think you (Iso) and Stardust have both put yourselves in the "likely town" camp so far - at least through Day 1.

I'm not sure how to respond to this, but basically, if you think my entire case on Suga is wrapped up in one contradiction, you're wrong. You know you're wrong since you said yourself that you liked the rest of my posts on the matter. So why bring it up? I'll have to revisit this once we see Suga's flip, I think. Feels like a chainsaw*.

*Chainsaw defense is the act of cutting someone down to make their target look better. In this case, rcwraspy may be throwing suspicion at me in order
to make my case on his scum buddy (Suga) look worse.

I'd like to address these things.

We all know this is a newbie game. I'm one of the newbies. I was also traveling when I did my posting on Friday, and didn't have very much time. The fact also remains that, as my first mafia game, I'm still not used to reading into every last word that someone says the way that Iso and Stardust have demonstrated. Personality wise I tend to take things at face value and this is a shift for me. I started seeing walls of text and thought I had to do likewise, but knew I wasn't in a position to at the time. So I apologized. I don't feel guilty about it, I just wanted to inform people of my traveling. There was simply unfortunate timing between the start of the game and my itinerary.

Regarding the "chainsaw." I hadn't heard of that term before, but I don't agree with it anyway. I've stated multiple times that I'm on board with lynching Suga. So the argument that I'm
defending him because he's my scum buddy doesn't make sense when I'm lynching him anyway. Let alone the fact that it's simply not true.

VOTE: DroppinSuga

This feels off. It's like he feels pressured to place his vote on Suga to "seem townie". And it's the hammer.

You stole my hammer.

@Stardust: Don't you worry about me. I'll answer your question Day 2 since my iPod ate it and I don't feel like re-typing it.

Also, Checkbox is town.

nI'd apologize, but apparently that's scummy

This is just .

-

Upon review, I feel like I'm explaining myself terribly. I think I need to brush up on my mindset theory.

Does anyone have any questions about the case?

-

@RedNihilist: Hi! Tell us things.

That's what's got you on edge about me? When the game began I was overly concerned with mis-lynching town. It wasn't intentionally leaving options open, it was fear of making the wrong choice and lynching town. Ironically and unfortunately, it ended up happening. I've been doing a little homework on the Wiki and a common theme is that mis-lynching is almost unavoidable. Once I realized that, my attitude toward lynching Suga - what at the time seemed the most obvious case we had - changed, and that's when I
hammered Suga.

[Iso]

Why were you afraid to mislynch town? (No, that's not a trick question, I just want to know why you thought it was bad.)

[Clownfish]

I hope to make time somewhere in the weekend to reread the entire thread in light of the Suga town flip. In short, however, referring to the list I posted on day one, the Suga flip makes me want to take another look at TubeHunter, RedNihilist and Stardust.

TubeHunter and RedNihilist were both early to vote for Suga. Assuming there is no daytalk, so the newbie scum players were not being coached (I think Iso somewhere responded to Suga saying daytalk seems unlikely), I think as a new scum player I would probably jump on any reasonable wagon early so as to get a townie lynched ASAP. Of course, Suga was acting scummy so this isn't that strong a signal.

Stardust is an experienced player. My intuition tells me that he is town, and the fact that he defended Iso's gambit in my eyes speaks somewhat to this. Although, if he were to do otherwise, maybe he would give Iso a clear scum read on him, so it isn't unthinkable that
was scum motivated. He is also an experienced player, so I think he would not easily display any scum tells either way. The reason I want to go back and reread his posts closely is that his grilling of Suga might now also be explained as him jumping on the first sign of somewhat scummy behavior to get a wagon started.

I am somewhat suspicious of the fact that Iso wanted Checkbox to claim "yesterday". In my eyes, this can only do more harm then good. However, the gambit is still far too convincing to me. Since I'm almost sure he's town, I think it's probably just a difference of opinion.

As for rcwraspy, I do agree that waffling is scummy. However, it is also very understandable as a new player. I can empathize with the feeling that you don't want to screw up and lynch a townie, as it also made me wary of pointing any fingers early on. He didn't really jump on the Suga wagon, which supports the idea of him being more of a hypercautious townie than scum trying to keep his options open. My
current read of raspy is town, mostly because it doesn't make sense that he would be scum and not jump on the Suga wagon.

Maybe someone more analytically endowed can work out what the different possibilities for no night kill imply in terms of players and what they would likely choose as targets given their roles. I think the options are (correct me if I'm wrong):
The mafia hit the bullet-proof townie, and there is a tracker.
Mafia hit the bulletproof townie, and there is a jailkeeper that either got roleblocked or missed.
The jailkeeper locked up the townie that would be killed. (There is a roleblocker, but he missed)
The jailkeeper locked up the scum player that would make the kill. (There is a roleblocker, but he missed)
There is a doctor that hit the mafia target. There is also a cop and a roleblocker.
There is a doctor that hit the mafia target. There is also a tracker.

Sorry for the wall of text.

PS @ Stardust: You wrote earlier that my writing makes my posts feel off somehow. Could
you expand on that or give an example?

[Stardust]

PS @ Stardust: You wrote earlier that my writing makes my posts feel off somehow. Could you expand on that or give an example?

Sure. imopen2 and Iso both had minor scum reads on you, so (those being my two strongest town reads) I did my best to really read into your posts since I'd considered you most likely town. The thing that seemed to bother them most was your odd questions. I happen to agree that many of your questions and tangents have been unusual. However, since I could think of no scum motivation behind these, I came to the conclusion that that's just your style. It seems like you're the type of player to dissect everything to its fullest extent. So although your odd questions haven't been displaying any normal
townie thought process that I've ever seen, I don't think that makes you scum. I think it makes you a different sort of player.

The reason I want to go back and reread his posts closely is that his grilling of Suga might now also be explained as him jumping on the first sign of somewhat scummy behavior to get a wagon started.

This I find a bit curious. How would you suggest we hunt for scum on Day 1 if not looking for scummy behaviour?

Also, Clownfish, why do you care so much about the power roles? A townie should be careful with how far they take their pondering lest they help the scum.

[rcwraspy]

Why were you afraid to mislynch town? (No, that's not a trick question, I just want to know why you thought it was bad.)

Sure. Mostly because of this:

- The Town Win condition is: You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

- The Mafia Win condition is: You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.

Since Kaze's intro posts and a few pages of the Boondocks game were my only view into the game, I was thinking of the game in a more "Team Town vs. Team Scum&
quot; type of a way. Why would you want to lynch your teammate?

However, I've come to think it's more like the reverse of the US judicial system. Instead of "innocent until proven guilty," or "town until proven scum," you need to take the attitude of "everybody else is a possible scum, until proven town."

[Iso]

Actually, it's a good thing to townhunt so you know who your allies are, which can potentially eliminate PoE possibilities. Consider everybody innocent until proven otherwise.

I had a follow-up question to your answer but I thought of it in a dream so I don't remember it anymore.

[TubeHunter]

Nothing much in the going on's today. Still waiting on Checkbox's case vs me.

[Clownfish]

PS @ Stardust: You wrote earlier that my writing makes my posts feel off somehow. Could you expand on that or give an example?

Sure. imopen2 and Iso both had minor scum reads on you, so (those being my two strongest town reads) I did my best to really read into your posts since I'd considered you most likely town. The thing that seemed to bother them most was your odd questions. I happen to agree that many of your questions and tangents have been unusual. However, since I could think of no scum motivation behind these, I came to the conclusion that that's just your style. It
seems like you're the type of player to dissect everything to its fullest extent. So although your odd questions haven't been displaying any normal townie thought process that I've ever seen, I don't think that makes you scum. I think it makes you a different sort of player.

Cool, thanks for the explanation. I recognize the part you mention about dissecting every aspect of the game. I'm one curious guy is all I can say.

The reason I want to go back and reread his posts closely is that his grilling of Suga might now also be explained as him jumping on the first sign of somewhat scummy behavior to get a wagon started.[/quote:
2667qx3l]
This I find a bit curious. How would you suggest we hunt for scum on Day 1 if not looking for scummy behaviour?

If I made the impression with that part of my post that I don't think your methods were good on day 1, I apologize. When I was writing that post I followed up "grilling Suga" with the caveat "(though it was obviously justified)". In the end I decided to leave it out because I thought it was obvious and the caveat made the sentence really abstruse. So to reiterate that: I think going after Suga was 100% correct. However, when I drew up my list before the lynch, I was operating under the assumption that Suga was scum. Now that he flipped town, one of the arguments for why you are town has been weakened. My read on you is still town but less conclusively. Given that, I wanted to give your previous posts a second look. This is in part because if you were scum, it would be pretty devastating for the town; moreso than any of the less experienced players.
n

Also, Clownfish, why do you care so much about the power roles? A townie should be careful with how far they take their pondering lest they help the scum.

I operate under the (perhaps false?) assumption that any logical deductions can and will also be done by the mafia. However, they wouldn't tell us about it if it resulted in any substantial information. For that reason I thought more of a "full disclosure"-type approach would be in order. I don't advocate anyone adding to this potentially public information based on their own role. Do you disagree with this approach?

This is all I have tonight unfortunately, I just got back from a really long PTQ and I have a job interview in the morning.

[Checkbox]

I kind of want to go along with Iso and Stardust and put some pressure on checkbox to start this game going, however I don't really want toacccedentally lynch a townie for not a great reason like that

This post feels forced to me. Even new town realize that lynching someone for the sole purpose of creating action in a game is "not a great reason". This isn't a huge red flag, but I don't see the need for him having to point this out. Other then this, no real action of any kind from TubeHunter on page 1.

everything suga has done looks much more scummy than anything else
so far...

Vote: DroppinSuga

Here, TubeHunter throws down the first vote on Suga (other than my own RVS vote) without giving any real reason other than "he's more scummy than everyone else". While this is certainly true, this post reads more to me as scum identifying an easy mislynch early rather than a townie who truly wants to get other townies behind him on this wagon for good reasons.
At least RedNihilist gave "being too aggressive" as his reason... something > nothing.

Phone post, and probably the last for the real world day.

I don't really have a good read on any other potential scum. I would look into checkbox as well, though I find it odd that Suva would try to bus his only partner so soon.( though it is my first game, so whatever)

If Suva is town, then
reevaluation like open said. Though I would like more of the other guys to chime about the game some more before truly reading the game.

Page 3; no original content. Gives no original reads, throws my name out because other people are. This just reads like scum trying to "hide in plain sight" - bussing everyone elses reads while offering up no original content.

Alright, now that we have a lot more posts by the other guys, do you think we should lynch suga now?

28 posts later, after finally getting the "additional responses" he wanted to he could "truly read the game", what does he do? He tries to get the hammer thrown down really quick, but phrases it such that he can hide behind being new - "do you guys think we
should lynch suga now?"
Still offering no
original content, this reads so much to me like scum just bussing off of other peoples' reads because there is one "obvious" target.

I as talking to stardust as he is the one saying that we should wait for claims and post by the others. I was thinking that now that people have do those things we could just move on with lynching him. Although I don't know if the town needs more information before night, it's still my first game so I'm not sure yet

Continues to do the same thing. Doesn't offer any original reads or townie discussion at all, still trying to get Suga lynched ASAP while hiding behind the "new player" guise.
If he truly has his doubts about Suga, then he might be asking questions and trying to get specific information from people rather than just saying "lets just lynch him now, idk
what we're supposed to be doing anyways."

[quote=&
quot;

Now, speaking about Suga... I know he's been having a hard time and he's probably nervous and shit, yet the way he suddenly stood up and tried to get Checkbox dead quickly is suspicious - on the other hand, he's keeping on sayin' that he doesn't care about the game or anything, so maybe we're even doing him a favour by lynching him.
We do want our fellow townies to be dedicated people, don't we?

This part of your post bothers me. Care to guess why?

Well, I'm asking myself why you should be bothered from that and I find the fact quite interesting.
I don't mind explaining those sentences, but before that I'd like you to tell me why you found 'em so disturbing.

You'll find that
doesn't actually answer my question. Try again.

Well, technically speaking your question was "Care to guess why?", and I just don't think I'm going to just throw *guess* what you see as wrong in my post.
I'm more than open to discuss every sentence of said post, but I'd like you to crearly state what sounded so wrong in it, in your opinion.

I'd like to point out that I've got nothing to hide and I don't really think I've said anything wrong, I've just asked you to help me help you with all the explaining, so please refrain from being so cold towards my poor self.
But I guess that you might just be trying to put some pressure on myself rather than trying to actually discussing the point with me.

I'm disappointed you're not giving me a straight answer. I'll consider that a point against you.

One of my problems with the post in question is that it's a total
fence-sit on Suga. It gives you the chance to either put your vote on him or back off completely. That gives scum an excuse to throw their vote around. While it's good to doubt your reads sometimes, it's also scummy to have no conviction whatsoever in them. Understand? Additionally:

"We do want our fellow townies to be dedicated people, don't we?"

The line "our fellow townies...don't we?" really stands out because it's like you're making it a point to say, "Guys, look, I'm including me as part of the town!" It doesn't strike me as natural phrasing and it's something I personally did in my first scum game ("we, the townies").

Why the defensive reaction?

Yeah, that post struck me as odd too. quite a defensive reaction. I don't think that that it is obviously a scum read, but it isn't too town one either. I too would like an explanation as well.

My top two candidates to investigate day two are checkbox and Nihilist.
Checkbox, while not seeming as scummy as suga day 1, can't be counted out as an early bus target from suga. Nihilist had that wierd defensive reaction of not answering a question and such, and without more input from him, I would like to check him out more.

Oh? What's this? Original reads and content?

Nope. Still just regurgitating what other players are saying. TubeHunter is really apt at saying lots of things while actually saying nothing.

I think I want Stardust to post once more and I will be ready for us to end the Day.

sounds good to me.

I don't think that checkbox would claim anywasys today, as he know we're not lynching him today. I say just wrap this all up and move to night phase

More of the same.

all of this ^

Now he is trying to say some townie things... right after OTHER people are saying them. Not offering his own original content, just /barning everyone all day every day.

I'd be down for some kind of night investigation by a cop if there is one on ISo this night if Suva flips town. If not then I'd advise them to check out checkbox.

His final post before the
lynch, stating the obvious, that which everyone else has already said.

Vote: TubeHunter

After so many posts of /barning others without saying anything of his own (other than the gentle push of the Suga wagon), I can't ses how he is anything but scum who correctly identified a mislynch early and then hid under layers of agreeing with others.

[TubeHunter]

I kind of want to go along with Iso and Stardust and put some pressure on checkbox to start this game going, however I don't really want toacccedentally lynch a townie for not a great reason like that

This post feels forced to me. Even new town realize that lynching someone for the sole purpose of creating action in a game is "not a great reason". This isn't a huge red flag, but I don't see the need for him having to point this out. Other then this, no real action of any kind from TubeHunter on page 1.

everything suga has done looks much more scummy than anything else so far...

Vote: DroppinSuga

Here, TubeHunter throws down the first vote on Suga (other than my own RVS vote) without giving any real reason other than "he's more scummy than everyone else". While this is certainly true, this post reads more to me as scum identifying an easy mislynch early rather than a townie who truly wants to get other townies behind him on this wagon for good reasons.
At least RedNihilist gave "being too aggressive" as his reason... something > nothing.

Phone post, and probably the last for the real world day.

I don't really have a good read on any other potential scum. I would look into
checkbox as well, though I find it odd that Suva would try to bus his only partner so soon.( though it is my first game, so whatever)

If Suva is town, then reevaluation like open said. Though I would like more of the other guys to chime about the game some more before truly reading the game.

Page 3; no original content. Gives no original reads, throws my name out because other people are. This just reads like scum trying to "hide in plain sight" - bussing everyone elses reads while offering up no original content.

Alright, now that we have a lot more posts by the other guys, do you think we should lynch suga now?

28 posts later, after finally getting the "additional responses" he wanted to he could "truly read the game", what does he do? He tries to get the hammer thrown
down really quick, but phrases it such that he can hide behind being new - "do you guys think we
should lynch suga now?"
Still offering no original content, this reads so much to me like scum just bussing off of other peoples' reads because there is one "obvious" target.

I as talking to stardust as he is the one saying that we should wait for claims and post by the others. I was thinking that now that people have do those things we could just move on with lynching him. Although I don't know if the town needs more information before night, it's still my first game so I'm not sure yet

Continues to do the same thing. Doesn't offer any original reads or townie discussion at all, still trying to get Suga lynched ASAP while hiding behind the "new player" guise.
If he truly has his doubts
about Suga, then he might be asking questions and trying to get specific information from people rather than just saying "lets just lynch him now, idk what we're supposed to be doing anyways."

[quote=&
quot;Iso » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:48 am"][quote="

Now, speaking about Suga... I know he's been having a hard time and he's probably nervous and shit, yet the way he suddenly stood up and tried to get Checkbox dead quickly is suspicious - on the other hand, he's keeping on sayin' that he doesn't care about the game or anything, so maybe we're even doing him a favour by lynching him.
We do want our fellow townies to be dedicated people, don't we?

This part of your post bothers me. Care to guess why?

Well, I'm asking myself why you should be bothered from that and I find the fact quite interesting.
nI don't mind explaining those sentences, but before that I'd like you to tell me why you found 'em so disturbing.

You'll find that doesn't actually answer my question. Try again.

Well, technically speaking your question was "Care to guess why?", and I just don't think I'm going to just throw *guess* what you see as wrong in my post.
I'm more than open to discuss every sentence of said post, but I'd like you to crearly state what sounded so wrong in it, in your opinion.

I'd like to point out that I've got nothing to hide and I don't really think I've said anything wrong, I've just asked you to help me help you with all the explaining, so please refrain from being so cold towards my poor self.
But I guess that you might just be trying to put some pressure on myself rather than trying to actually discussing the point with me.

I'm
disappointed you're not giving me a straight answer. I'll consider that a point against you.

One of my problems with the post in question is that it's a total fence-sit on Suga. It gives you the chance to either put your vote on him or back off completely. That gives scum an excuse to throw their vote around. While it's good to doubt your reads sometimes, it's also scummy to have no conviction whatsoever in them. Understand? Additionally:

"We do want our fellow townies to be dedicated people, don't we?"

The line "our fellow townies...don't we?" really stands out because it's like you're making it a point to say, "Guys, look, I'm including me as part of the town!" It doesn't strike me as natural phrasing and it's something I personally did in my first scum game ("we, the townies").

Why the defensive reaction?

Yeah, that post struck me as odd too. quite a defensive reaction. I don't think that that it is obviously a scum
read, but it isn't too town one either. I too would like an explanation as well.

My top two candidates to investigate day two are checkbox and Nihilist. Checkbox, while not seeming as scummy as suga day 1, can't be counted out as an early bus target from suga. Nihilist had that wierd defensive reaction of not answering a question and such, and without more input from him, I would like to check him out more.

Oh? What's this? Original reads and content?

Nope. Still just regurgitating what other players are saying. TubeHunter is really apt at saying lots of things while actually saying nothing.

I think I want Stardust to post once more and I will be ready for us
to end the Day.

sounds good to me.

I don't think that checkbox would claim anywasys today, as he know we're not lynching him today. I say just wrap this all up and move to night phase

More of the same.

all of this ^

Now he is trying to say some townie things... right after OTHER people are saying them. Not offering his own original content, just /barning everyone all day every day.

I'd be down for some kind of night investigation by a cop
if there is one on ISo this night if Suva flips town. If not then I'd advise them to check out checkbox.

His final post before the lynch, stating the obvious, that which everyone else has already said.

Vote: TubeHunter

After so many posts of /barning others without saying anything of his own (other than the gentle push of the Suga wagon), I can't ses how he is anything but scum who correctly identified a mislynch early and then hid under layers of agreeing with others.[/quote]

Good job, I thought you were never going to post it!

But on a more serious note, I agree that I need to put forth some more original content, and barn less. But It is still my very first game, so I feel I deserve at least some slack.

On the posts that basically say, lets lynch suga now, it was more impatient than anything. If you are scum, (which I believe
you are) you should've know that ever since suga dug himself a hole, we were lynching him. He wasn't actually contributing anything to the cause, with his posts being basically "Whatever bro, your making a mistake", and was leading me to belive he just wasn't trying to give anything up for his buddy. And between you refusing to claim, Which i believe is due to you, despite having 3 votes most of the day, were not an any pressure due to suga playing pretty badly.

And besides, (The most important point i might add) If I was scum and you were town, while wouldn't I barn along with Iso and Stardust and just put more pressure on you? Why wait for suga to come along and screw things up when I would've had a juicy target in you having already 3 votes?

This, along with the slightly scummy meta information posts is why I feel like the best option currently is Vote: Checkbox

[Checkbox]

I kind of want to go along with Iso and Stardust and put some pressure on checkbox to start this game going, however I don't really want toacccedentally lynch a townie for not a great reason like that

This post feels forced to me. Even new town realize that lynching someone for the sole purpose of creating action in a game is "not a great reason". This isn't a huge red flag, but I don't see the need for him having
to point this out. Other then this, no real action of any kind from TubeHunter on page 1.

everything suga has done looks much more scummy than anything else so far...

Vote: DroppinSuga

Here, TubeHunter throws down the first vote on Suga (other than my own RVS vote) without giving any real reason other than "he's more scummy than everyone else". While this is certainly true, this post reads more to me as scum identifying an easy mislynch early rather than a townie who truly wants to get other townies behind him on this wagon for good reasons.
At least RedNihilist gave "being too aggressive" as his reason... something > nothing.

Phone post, and probably the last for the real world day.

I don't really have a good read on any other potential scum. I would look into checkbox as well, though I find it odd that Suva would try to bus his only partner so soon.( though it is my first game, so whatever)

If Suva is town, then reevaluation like open said. Though I would like more of the other guys to chime about the game some more before truly reading the game.

Page 3; no original content. Gives no original reads, throws my name out because other people are. This just reads like scum trying to "hide in plain sight" - bussing everyone elses reads while offering up no original content.

Alright, now that we have a lot more posts by the other guys, do you think we should lynch suga now?

28 posts later,
after finally getting the "additional responses" he wanted to he could "truly read the game", what does he do? He tries to get the hammer thrown down really quick, but phrases it such that he can hide behind being new - "do you guys think we
should lynch suga now?"
Still offering no original content, this reads so much to me like scum just bussing off of other peoples' reads because there is one "obvious" target.

I as talking to stardust as he is the one saying that we should wait for claims and post by the others. I was thinking that now that people have do those things we could just move on with lynching him. Although I don't know if the town needs more information before night, it's still my first game so I'm not sure yet

Continues to do the same thing. Doesn't offer any
original reads or townie discussion at all, still trying to get Suga lynched ASAP while hiding behind the "new player" guise.
If he truly has his doubts about Suga, then he might be asking questions and trying to get specific information from people rather than just saying "lets just lynch him now, idk what we're supposed to be doing anyways."

[quote=&
quot;RedNihilist » Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:33 am"]

[quote="

Now, speaking about Suga... I know he's been having a hard time and he's probably nervous and shit, yet the way he suddenly stood up and tried to get Checkbox dead quickly is suspicious - on the other hand, he's keeping on sayin' that he doesn't care about the game or anything, so maybe we're even doing him a favour by lynching him.
We do want our fellow townies to be dedicated people, don't we?

This part
of your post bothers me. Care to guess why?

Well, I'm asking myself why you should be bothered from that and I find the fact quite interesting.
I don't mind explaining those sentences, but before that I'd like you to tell me why you found 'em so disturbing.

You'll find that doesn't actually answer my question. Try again.

Well, technically speaking your question was "Care to guess why?", and I just don't think I'm going to just throw *guess* what you see as wrong in my post.
I'm more than open to discuss every sentence of said post, but I'd like you to crearly state what sounded so wrong in it, in your opinion.

I'd like to point out that I've got nothing to hide and I don't really think I've said anything wrong, I've just asked you to help me help you with all the explaining, so please refrain from being so cold towards my poor self.
But
I guess that you might just be trying to put some pressure on myself rather than trying to actually discussing the point with me.

I'm disappointed you're not giving me a straight answer. I'll consider that a point against you.

One of my problems with the post in question is that it's a total fence-sit on Suga. It gives you the chance to either put your vote on him or back off completely. That gives scum an excuse to throw their vote around. While it's good to doubt your reads sometimes, it's also scummy to have no conviction whatsoever in them. Understand? Additionally:

"We do want our fellow townies to be dedicated people, don't we?"

The line "our fellow townies...don't we?" really stands out because it's like you're making it a point to say, "Guys, look, I'm including me as part of the town!" It doesn't strike me as natural phrasing and it's something I personally did in my first scum game ("we, the townies").

Why the
defensive reaction?

Yeah, that post struck me as odd too. quite a defensive reaction. I don't think that that it is obviously a scum read, but it isn't too town one either. I too would like an explanation as well.

My top two candidates to investigate day two are checkbox and Nihilist. Checkbox, while not seeming as scummy as suga day 1, can't be counted out as an early bus target from suga. Nihilist had that wierd defensive reaction of not answering a question and such, and without more input from him, I would like to check him out more.

Oh? What's this? Original reads and content?

Nope. Still just regurgitating what other players are saying. TubeHunter is really apt at saying lots of things while actually saying nothing.

I think I want Stardust to post once more and I will be ready for us to end the Day.

sounds good to me.

I don't think that checkbox would claim anywasys today, as he know we're not lynching him today. I say just wrap this all up and move to night phase

More of the same.

all of this ^

Now he is trying to say some townie things... right after OTHER people are saying them. Not offering his own original content, just /barning everyone all day every day.

I'd be down for some kind of night investigation by a cop if there is one on ISo this night if Suva flips town. If not then I'd advise them to check out checkbox.

His final post before the lynch, stating the obvious, that which everyone else has already said.

Vote: TubeHunter

After so many posts of /barning others without saying anything of his own (other than the gentle push of the Suga wagon), I can't ses how he is anything but scum who correctly identified a mislynch early and then hid under layers of agreeing with others.

Good job, I thought you were never going to post it!

But on a more serious note, I agree that I need to put forth some more original content, and barn less. But It is still my very first game, so I feel
I deserve at least some slack.

On the posts that basically say, lets lynch suga now, it was more impatient than anything. If you are scum, (which I believe you are) you should've know that ever since suga dug himself a hole, we were lynching him. He wasn't actually contributing anything to the cause, with his posts being basically "Whatever bro, your making a mistake", and was leading me to belive he just wasn't trying to give anything up for his buddy. And between you refusing to claim, Which i believe is due to you, despite having 3 votes most of the day, were not an any pressure due to suga playing pretty badly.

And besides, (The most important point i might add) If I was scum and you were town, while wouldn't I barn along with Iso and Stardust and just put more pressure on you? Why wait for suga to come along and screw things up when I would've had a juicy target in you having already 3 votes?

This, along with the slightly scummy meta information posts is why I feel like the
best option currently is Vote: Checkbox[/quote]

I know that you were impatient to lynch Suga. I don't know why, if you are town, that you would be impatient to do so. What does the town have to gain from lynching without more information? It would seem that the scum have more to gain from that happening...

I know that Suga was the lynch yesterday for quite a while throughout the day, everyone did. Suga had given up, and scum or town, he wasn't helping the town either way. The reason I didn't claim (as explained by myself and others yesterday) was that the town had absolutely nothing to gain (and lots to lose) considering we had already decided that Suga was the day's lynch. If I am a vanilla townie, the claim is a wash. If I am a PR, the claim is detrimental to the town because it gives the scum a perfect nightkill target, and neither situation was going to change the lynch situation as we had already come to a decision.

And to your last point...

I kind of want to go along with Iso and Stardust and put some pressure on checkbox to start this game going, however I don't really want toacccedentally lynch a townie for not a great reason like that

You address exactly that in this post. It wouldn't look great for you if you were to jump on my early wagon because there was no real foundation to it; waiting for someone to actually act scummy is a much better idea for ScumTube.

[TubeHunter]

I know that you were impatient to lynch Suga. I don't know why, if you are town, that you would be impatient to do so. What does the town have to gain from lynching without more information? It would seem that the scum have more to gain from that happening...

I know that Suga was the lynch yesterday for quite a while throughout the day, everyone did. Suga had given up, and scum or town, he wasn't helping the town either way. The reason I didn't claim (as explained by myself and others yesterday) was that the town had absolutely nothing to gain (and lots to lose) considering we had already decided that Suga was the day's lynch. If I am a vanilla townie, the claim is a wash. If I am a PR, the claim is detrimental to the town because it gives the scum a perfect
nightkill target, and neither situation was going to change the lynch situation as we had already come to a decision.

And to your last point...

I kind of want to go along with Iso and Stardust and put some pressure on checkbox to start this game going, however I don't really want toacccedentally lynch a townie for not a great reason like that

You address exactly that in this post. It wouldn't look great for you if you were to jump on my early wagon because there was no real foundation to it; waiting for someone to actually act scummy is a much better idea for ScumTube.

I"m just an impatient guy? When suga is clearly not going to give you anymore information, and you have (IMO) a valid reason to not claim, I figured that we really had nothing else to solve that couldn't be got on day 2, given that
I was convinced that suga was scum (I think most of us were).

One more thing that I forgot to mention, if all i am doing is barning, why would I even take the risk of starting the suga wagon? Why not let some of the other players (Red, stardust, Imopen) start to pile on the pressure before i come in there and barn some more pressure on the "obvmislynch" Why even take the heat as "the guy who started the suga wagon" on day 2 when suga flips town? If my (according to you) "scum play style" is to barn off of everyone and have no orignal content, why make myself stand out?

[Checkbox]

Because Suga had already been caught with his hand in the cookie jar at that point.

[Iso]

Unvote

I think the scumteam is among Red/Tube/Clownfish. Unfortunately, I'm not too optimistic about the town winning this one, as cases can be made on all 3 of these players, and short of some sort of confirmation through either a Tracker or a Jailer, I don't think we'll be able to PoE our options very well.

Stardust, I'm open to suggestions.

[Clownfish]

Unvote

I think the scumteam is among Red/Tube/Clownfish. Unfortunately, I'm not too optimistic about the town winning this one, as cases can be made on all 3 of these players, and short of some sort of confirmation through either a Tracker or a Jailer, I don't think we'll be able to PoE our options very well.

Stardust, I'm open to suggestions.

Ugh, god, why do you keep making posts that make me feel like you're scum? (Before someone asks: it feels like this post is fishing for an inexperienced PR to come in and say "Oh hey, I can clear one of those!")

I would also like if you at least gave a reason since you chose to raise suspicion against me. In your first list, you had me as null read, then you
said you wanted to look into me on day two without specifying a reason and now you tell me a case can be made against me though to my mind you have not once called me out on a scum tell. If I acted scummy enough before that a case can be argued against me, why did you keep it to yourself instead of making everyone aware of my purported scummy behaviour?

[Iso]

I'm not fishing.

My problem with raising a case in this instance is that I'm genuinely not sure of what direction I want to go. While I want to help give the town direction, the issue here is that I don't want to waste my time casing a townie in the event that it turns out to be a waste of my time like casing rcw was. (Seriously, who read my case?)

I lost a lot of my clout after Suga flipped town. I'd like input. That's why I'm talking to Stardust. Not you.

[Clownfish]

I'm not fishing.

My problem with raising a case in this instance is that I'm genuinely not sure of what direction I want to go. While I want to help give the town direction, the issue here is that I don't want to waste my time casing a townie in the event that it turns out to be a waste of my time like casing rcw was. (Seriously, who read my case?)

I lost a lot of my clout after Suga flipped town. I'd like input. That's why I'm talking to Stardust. Not you.

(Just to answer your rhetorical question: I did.)

[Iso]

"My current read of raspy is town, mostly because it doesn't make sense that he would be scum and not jump on the Suga wagon."

This, right?

Why does being scum necessarily exclude someone from being on the Suga wagon?

[Clownfish]

"My current read of raspy is town, mostly because it doesn't make sense that he would be scum and not jump on the Suga wagon."

This, right?

Why does being scum necessarily exclude someone from being on the Suga wagon?

Either I'm misunderstanding you or you're misunderstanding me. I'm saying I think that Scumraspy would be on the Suga wagon, because he would be looking for a quick lynch. Since he wasn't, it seems to corroborate the fact that he is an unsure townie instead.

[rcwraspy]

We don't seem to be getting much traction so far in Day 2. Therefore I think this is as good a starting point as anything else:

So as soon as I flip town on this lynch, I want my fellow townies to investigate Checky and Iso. I see me a scum team there.

Suga's really the only person we can DEFINITIVELY confirm as town, so his word carries a good amount of weight to me. While he didn't give us much other than his hunch to go on, he is an experienced player so I have to assume he had some reads. We were pretty much all on his wagon, not just Checkbox and Iso, so why single them out?

[Stardust]

Unvote

I think the scumteam is among Red/Tube/Clownfish. Unfortunately, I'm not too optimistic about the town winning this one, as cases can be made on all 3 of these players, and short of some sort of confirmation through either a Tracker or a Jailer, I don't think we'll be able to PoE our options very well.

Stardust, I'm open to suggestions.

My suggestion is that you drop Clownfish.

I was quite content to believe TubeHunter was town... actually, before I go on here - Iso! You believed TubeHunter was town too. What changed?

[TubeHunter]

Do you think I am scum stardust? If so, I would like a few reasons.

[Stardust]

I was quite content to believe TubeHunter was town... actually, before I go on here - Iso! You believed TubeHunter was town too. What changed?

You know what? Nevermind. Answer that question anyway, but you're either town or a serious adrenaline-junky scum. I think you know what I mean when I say you'd have a 25% chance of survival, so we'll leave it at that and call you town.

So, to continue, Checkbox's case was surprisingly good. TubeHunter's WIFOM* laden defense wasn't very inspiring either (especially since he contradicts himself regarding his reasoning for not jumping on the Checkbox wagon) and makes me feel like he's been thinking hard about how to appear town. I need to reread TubeHunter for myself and I still need to build a case on Red (not happening today, unfortunately), but I don't think you need to despair yet anyway. I'd add Checkbox to that
potentials list still (though his decent case on someone who was generally considered town is a plus), but if we're sure the two scum are within three people, we actually just win the game**.



*WIFOM stands for "Wine In Front Of Me", a quote from the movie The Princess Bride. Basically, simple motivational things fail in mafia because the scum know what everyone else thinks, so they'll avoid doing it. Or maybe they'll do it because they know that everyone else knows they know! Or did they avoid it knowing that everyone knows he knows they know he knows?!

If that was confusing, here's an example. Why would Tubehunter take the risk of starting the Suga wagon? Clearly he wouldn't want to make himself stand out as scum, right? Oh wait, unless he decided to make himself stand out so people would think he was town! But that's too obvious, so I'd guess scum might still avoid it. Or not avoid it, because it's obvious... You can see how that thought process keeps spiraling until no one can
possibly answer that original question. It's useless WIFOM. WIFOM applies to lots of things in mafia, but this is a pretty simple example.


**To break this down for everyone, we're currently at 8 alive with 2 mafia. Let's say we mislynch town again today. Starting tomorrow, we're down to 6 alive with 2 mafia, still very much in control of the lynch. One more mislynch, then we're at 4 alive with 2 mafia - and we lose. But if we only mislynch once more for the remainder of the game, we win! And that's not even counting the chance that we might be able to block another kill, giving us one more mislynch opportunity. So it's not quite time to worry yet. If we mislynch town today, then we should worry. At that point it will be time for a mass claim since one more thing that Iso missed is that we do have one or two confirmed townies among us - we just don't know who they are yet.

[TubeHunter]

I admit I haven't played well, that for sure. As for trying to seem town, idk what you want, don't we all want to look like town?

I thin. We are going after the wrong people myself. When I get to An actually computer (rather then tapping along on me phone) I ll explain, but involves checkbox and ISP

[Stardust]

Nothing much in the going on's today. Still waiting on Checkbox's case vs me.

Why wait for Checkbox's case? You'd already stated that you were rereading and had a handful of suspects. Why not get something started for yourself?

In fact, reading back, you said you'd have a big case Saturday morning. What happened to that?

I admit I haven't played well, that for sure.

What makes you think you haven't played well?



RedNihilist! Any comments on the current goings-on?

[RedNihilist]

Well, I'm actually quite puzzled.
I don't really know if Suga's dying claims were just random or if they're worth any kind of extra thought, so I think my next step will be re-reading some older posts in order to get some kind of hint.

Anyway I'm at work and I won't be home tonight, so I guess I will not offer too much content in the next 7+ hours.

[rcwraspy]

TubeHunter man, you're really starting to give me scum vibes. And I barely even know what to look for.

That said, per Suga's last wish I'm going to look deeper into Iso and Checkbox. If there's a case to be made I'll post it by end of day tomorrow at the latest. I'll also let folks know if I end up leaning town on them.

Just to clarify before the question is asked: me looking into Iso and Checkbox in now way should suggest I'm not interested in seeing more from others, including TubeHunter.

[rcwraspy]

edit for my above post: "now" should read "no" in the last sentence.

[Stardust]

Well, I'm actually quite puzzled.
I don't really know if Suga's dying claims were just random or if they're worth any kind of extra thought, so I think my next step will be re-reading some older posts in order to get some kind of hint.

Anyway I'm at work and I won't be home tonight, so I guess I will not offer too much content in the next 7+ hours.

You didn't answer my question.