[Primer] Devotion Red

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[Primer] Devotion Red

Postby warwizard87 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:38 am

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Okay bare with me this is my first primer learning experience :teach:

At Starcitygames 3 Different red builds showed their head, PyroRed, AIR, and Devotion red.

[deck]
Creatures
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Fanatic of Mogis
4 Firefist Striker
1 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Rakdos Cackler

Instants
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Shock

Basic Lands
21 Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Burning Earth
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

Of the 3 version this one was the most original, felt like
it was doing the most powerful things and well won the event ( albit with a lot of luck his semi finals and finals round was marred by a mully to 4 and his finals opponent being color screwed both games but I digress)

The dack plays as a normal RDWs until midgame were it drops Fanatic of Mogis for a large amount of damage. Utilizing as many red mana symbols as possible on cards like [cards]Burning-Tree Emissary, Ash Zealot, and Boros Reckoner[/cards]it beats and then blasts its way as fast as possible to 20.

This particular build is generally agreed to not be optimized, So lets do some optimization shall we.

This is the build I am starting with

[deck]

4 Firedrinker satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Fanatic of Mogis

2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Shock
4 Lightining Strike
4 Magma Jet

20 Mountains
3 Mutavault

Sideboard
4 Frostburn Weird
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Act of
Treason
3 Burning earth
1 Mutavault
1 Chandra, Pyromaster[/deck]

so far in matches I have gone. VS pyrored(zs build) preboard 11-9 post board 8-12
vs esper http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=59586 13-7 preboard 13-7 post board

some conciderations.

Burning-Tree Emissary:While I love this card I don't feel it fits in this deck it dosnt chain well and is iften times just a dork.

Firefist striker: if midrange gets more popular I think he is perfect but in a room of red and control he dosnt feel as strong to me.

Firedrinker Satyer :He is not the best card vs red mirrors, but he is huge vs any control deck, first card removed vs red.

Frostburn Weird: I would like this main deck, maybe but I don't see a way of doing so, I like it being a mana sink also.

[card]Mutavault[/card:
3r0v85o4] :Even with so much red in the cost this card is still insane.

Purphoros, God of the Forge: Just not feeling him, he is fighting for 4 drops with both Chandra and Fanatic and that's not a good place to be.

other lists from fourm users, sorry guys you are my source for the most part,
I went to FNM tonight and went 4-0-1, drawing out for first. Heres the deck i ran.

[DECK]
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Chandras Pheonx
4 Fanatic of Mogis

4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Shock

2 Chandra, Pyromasncer
1 Hammer of Purp

21 Mountain
2 Mutavault
[/DECK]
[quote="Johnny_Spike » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:00 pm&
quot;]Just got back from FNM. Super-tired, so please excuse me if this isn't perfect.


FNM List:

[deck]Lands (22):
22 Mountain

Creatures (28):
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Fanatic of Mogis


Spells (10):
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Hammer of Purphoros

Sideboard (15):
4 Frostburn Weird
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
3 Burning Earth[/deck]

Went 2-1 for 6th place (out of 20).

[/quote]

add anything relevant guys =] I feel the archtype is best suited when a ton of other red decks are in the room, vs unkown format I still prefer pyrored.
Last edited by warwizard87 on Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby warwizard87 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:42 am

reserved for future use
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Postby Helios » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:50 am

Too many pictures shuga. Just do Fanatic. Talk to some of the photoshop masters in the clan about making you a sweet-ass banner.

But else-wise, thanks for making this a separate thread. Good work! Now I can go back to Pyrored brewing.... :evillol:

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Postby warwizard87 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:51 am

Too many pictures shuga. Just do Fanatic. Talk to some of the photoshop masters in the clan about making you a sweet-ass banner.
But else-wise, thanks for making this a separate thread. Good work! Now I can go back to Pyrored brewing.... :evillol:
good call. banner would be nice. yeah that was part of the reason for doing it, the rdws thread is getting cluttered with pyrored, devotion red, and a bit of AIR. I feel all 3 archtypes are different enough they need separate forums.
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Postby Yarpus » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:47 pm

Some text would be fine as hell.
No offense, but this just doesn't feel like an article at all.
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Postby Tyrael » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:10 pm

I think making a list comparing our possible creatures/spells/lands and listing would be a good start.

I also feel like we need to have a discussion whether or not Boros Reckoner is really worth having as a MB option. I personally think our MB should be set to go for a clean goldfish strategy (vs control for example) and then sideboard according to what we might need when we face harder matchups. After all, Phoenix and Hammer only give 1 less devotion to red than reckoner and both will speed up your beatdown significantly more than BR.

Just my 2 cents.
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Postby Str1fe5 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:25 pm

Well the biggest reason to not run Reckoner in the main is the sacrifice of multiple Mutavault, which is kind of a problem anyway.

I personally feel this deck is soft to G/R Monsters. Reckoner is easily your best card in that match up. It's obviously weaker against control but to me we have a strong matchup game 1 even with Reckoner.

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Postby Platypus » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:26 pm

Another card that should be questioned in my opinion is Rakdos Shred-Freak. The haste + 1 extra devotion is good, but is it better than a falter effect from either Firefist Striker or Goblin Shortcutter? I'm not sure it is. And if you want the falter effect, Striker or Shortcutter? Personally I'm leaning towards Shortcutter because you get the immediate effect. That is in a 4x Reckoner deck with few Mutavaults. With 3-4 Mutavaults Striker might be preferable.
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Postby Khaospawn » Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:34 pm

Shred-Freak was a baller in most of my games. When he wasn't, Frost Weird took baller status.
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Postby Khaospawn » Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:36 pm

Also, I learned that the deck doesn't need Mutavaults. It's better to just be consistent with your mana so you can cast all the double and triple red spells. The Hammer solves your flood problems.
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Postby Narcasus » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:52 pm

I never drew the hammer all night, but the other red players said it was an all star. I'm leaning towards trying to run 2 main board. Thoughts? Cut a mutavault maybe

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Postby warwizard87 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:32 pm

Some text would be fine as hell.
No offense, but this just doesn't feel like an article at all.
Its a work in progress :P I really wanted to get it out of the rdws fourm cuz the conversation was starting to get confusing between pyrored and devotion red so I threw something together quickly. I will flesh it out in the next week or so. For right now I just wanted to separate the discussions so members dont get confused.
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Postby Tyrael » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:39 pm

Another card that should be questioned in my opinion is Rakdos Shred-Freak. The haste + 1 extra devotion is good, but is it better than a falter effect from either Firefist Striker or Goblin Shortcutter? I'm not sure it is. And if you want the falter effect, Striker or Shortcutter? Personally I'm leaning towards Shortcutter because you get the immediate effect. That is in a 4x Reckoner deck with few Mutavaults. With 3-4 Mutavaults Striker might be preferable.
Firefist Striker is only good when you're also running BTE as you will easily be able to trigger his batallion if you're flooding the board that easily. In any other situation, he's just meh. I might still consider him if it turns out that my local meta is full of G/W midrange decks
though.
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Khaospawn's Devotion Wins

Postby Khaospawn » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:08 am

This is what I played for FNM:

[deck]Creatures 28
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Fanatic of Mogis

Burn 10
2 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike

Land 22
22 Mountain

Sideboard
2 Burning Earth
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Act of Treason
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Flames of the Firebrand
4 Frostburn Weird[/deck]



I can already tell what you guys are thinking. No Mutavaults? Rakdos Shred-Freak? What's with that mess of a sideboard?


Let me explain.


I started with Z's Pyromancer Red list, albeit with a few slight changes (his original list, by the way, is pretty much perfect). I love that list's resiliency and gas-drawing engine in the form of Chandra. I love the multiple, almost surgical, angles of attack.



Pyromancer Red is the “
thinking man's Mono Red deck.”


However, I wanted to hit harder.


Haste is also key right now. The faster decks are able to go beneath an opponent to take them out before the “bigger” player has time to wrestle control. Being able to win on turn 4 is really important. I wanted a deck that is able to do that and I really think Fanatic is the route to go.


However, following the Mogis leads down a weird path. The Pyromancer deck I built slowly morphed into a different animal trying to support the Fanatic. Numbers shifted, the manabase went from okay to suck, and then to feasible. Fanatic is a build-around card, much like Chandra is at times. We are rewarded for our devotion.


Building around Fanatic lets us play some cool stuff that isn't able to work in Pyromancer Red. Boros Reckoner is the best he's ever been right now and probably the best he ever will be. One Reckoner on the field can force a player to 2-for-1 himself, but two of them is really troublesome.
And deadly. Because our Red Mana symbols count, he's an obvious include- he adds 3 to the dome damage from Mogis! We have other options in creatures too: Frostburn Weird and Rakdos Shred-Freak. Both are utility in that one is great in the Aggro match-ups and the other against Control and stumbling opponents. Since we want to be very aggressive early, Shred-Freak compliments Ash Zealot and Chandra's Phoenix in our haste department. Swapping Shred-Freak out for Frostburn Weird in the Aggro match-up (think Mono Red) is a straight, logical shot. And to an extent, so is swapping out Reckoner for the Weird in the Control match.


Bertorelli said in his article (I'd link, but I'm lazy. :P) that he wished he'd had another 1-drop creature beside Rakdos Cackler to pressure U/W and Esper players. Obviously, he expressed disdain for Droppin Suga's magic card, Firecrotc- uh, Firedrinker Satyr. Whatevs,
Berto. Jackal Pup is good pretty much always, and when are choices are limited to that and Foundry-Street Denizen, it's pretty much a no-brainer. Besides, killing hexproof plant with the Suga is just tits.


Adding these new aggressive, and high devotion, elements in order to build a lethal Mogis forced the Pyromancer Red deck I'd built to cut away its burn package. Bummer. Still, the package Berto was left with is pretty solid in its own right. If I remember correctly, one of zemanjaski's early Standard brews had a similar package, and to quote Z himself:

Shock is ALWAYS a meta call. It's a bad card unless its good haha.

Yep. Good enough for me.


So I had a robust, aggressive force of creatures to play while using Mogis as a “combo kill” when drawn. Burn package was good. In fact, it's amazing to
just be able to play Magma Jet at all.. Scry 2 is resonsbible for enabling me to win games seemingly "out of nowhere." Need a land to nail da Moges? Boom. Need a body? You found all land, but it's okay. Just shove them on the bottom! Magma Jet plays so nicely with Chandra, however, I was faced with a critical decision: send her to the board or force maindecking her. And as we all know, the best configuration is a 3/1 split of Chandra, Pyromaster and Hammer of Purphoros since they can pretty much work in tandem to win a game on their own. Don't believe me? Then you first need to read Z's Primer, sleeve up Young Peezy and Co. and test the hell out of that Pyromancer Red list. Then come back here because you want to play a quicker, heavy hitting deck with a “combo-win” feel.



And to stop for a second, the deck is almost like combo deck. Think about it! Your pieces are your creatures. The Mogis is the trigger to pull it all off. And at the same time, you're also
forced to play Control in certain matches. SO, you control the game the best you can with things like Boros Reckoner, Ash Zealot, Chandra's Phoenix, perform some tempo plays with your Burn, and do some good ole fashioned combat math. Then win with a Fanatic. It's like playing Splinter Twin in Modern.



Anyways, moving on. I put Baby in a corner by moving Thunder Thighs to the board. Her and her toy, the Hammer. She doesn't directly enable a combo win for me. She may win me the game for me in the long run, but I figure I'll just bring her in when the match calls for it. Which was all the time, actually. But more on that later. At the time, I just had a powerful creature base and a solid Burn package and a manabase that needed tweaking.


I tried forcing Mutavault from the beginning. It went from 3 main, to 1, up to 2, and then to a full set. It's so good! But, I have a news flash for you, Walter
Cronkite: read Alex's article on Mutavault. Again, I'd link, but I'm lazy. But to summarize, and much like Thoughtseize, Mutavault is a very strong card but you can't just cram a set into any deck that can play it. Seriously. And Bertorelli knew that. I tried to force it. Even with just one, there was always a chance I would have it in my hand during a critical moment when I most needed a Mountain. And in this deck, you absolutely have to have the mana for Reckoner. It's imperative. But what Bertorelli didn't have was Ham's guide to making better manabases, AKA some Geo-Hyper-Math Formula, or some other genius, math-related name. Whatever, ham's a genius and a sexy beast so he can call it what he wants. The point is: The deck needs at least 22 land. All Mountains. Red wins with consistency, right, folks? And don't forget: we're devoted to the Red Magics, brah.


Still with me? Okay, so you know now where my head was at when I played this list Friday. The board is a mess.
I know I still want Chandra, Hammer, Burning Earth, Frostburn Weird, and Act of Treason in my sideboard. That left me with 4 slots. Bertorelli's list had 4 Mortars, but he expressed wanting to play Flames of the Firebrand instead. I liked the feel of having a 2/2 split on Mortars/Flames that I could sub in for Firedrinker Satyr in the Aggro match-up on the draw. With that in mind, I shuffled up, guzzled down some Jameson, and went to town.

:ape:

I don't want to bore you with meaningless details. I went undefeated. Granted, this is at the FNM local level, but I think now is the time to play this deck. Here's why:

Round 1 vs G/B Midrange: I played Fanatic in Game 1 for 10 after I aggro'd out with Shred-Freaks. He stabilized with critters and Desecration Demon, so I built “the Shield” with the Reckoning Crew. I played Mogis for lethal. I boarded in Chandra for Game 2, proceeded to draw
a bunch of extra cards, played some dudes, stole a Demon with Act of Treason, and finally won with a Fanatic exiled from Chandra's +0 ability.


Rounds 2 and 3 were against G/W and B/R Aggro, respectively. While each deck had their awesome strengths, either in powerful early game critters paired with a diverse removal package or under-costed fatties, they succumbed to the Anti-Aggro tech in every match-up. I overloaded my two Mortars twice in both matches. Chandra was also a key player in both games. She was an all-star, drawing me cards, clearing blockers, and ultimately kept me fueled for the duration.


Round 4
was against a Bad Big Boros deck. Dude played Tajic and Aurelia with a horrible manabase. Mogis wrecked him for me Game 1. We play a longer Game 2, where I find out that he boarded in Assemble the Legion against me. Even though I won with a Fanatc for exactsies, I leaned two things:


One, the dude needs to read
and reread “Who's the Beatdown?”


Two, Playing a Fanatic is almost like following the etiquette for dick pageantry. And by that, I also mean dick-showing contests. Really, you don't want to humiliate the guy. You just want to win, so you do exactly that: show enough to in. That's all. Don't get fancy and try to whirl your dick around before left-to-right smacking him with a semi-chub. That's just wrong. Be decent about it and do what you got to do in a respectful manner. We're not cavemen here, goddammit! If you can lethal with a Mogis, then do it. Just don't get trick-nasty and try to be super spectacular. Just kill the guy and be done with it.


I concluded that, to the rest of the word, only 2 kinds of people are aware of Mogis tech: the super competitive players and Red Mages. For some reason, everybody was hungry to know what was in my list. Suddenly, everyone's talking around my LGS about how to beat the Mogis.

For the record, I ain't scared. I'm a devoted Red Mage. I play Red any
chance I get because I love it. When people ask what I'm playing, I tell them. Mono Red. Beat me if you can, playa.

Anyways, when I think about tweaks for the next time, which is either next week's FNM or the TCG Player States, I may want to make a couple of changes.

Since I brought in Chandra during almost every match, I should probably main her. If I do that, I really think the only thing I can cut would be the Rakdos Shred-Freak. As much as I am to loathe cut him, I can see some logic in playing +1x Mountain, +2x Chandra, Pyromaster, and +1x Hammer of Purphoros. This opens up the Sideboard to more options.


Here's a theoretical list:


[deck]Creatures 24
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Fanatic of Mogis

Good Stuff 3
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Hammer of Purphoros

Burn 10
2 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike

Land 23
23x Mountain

Sideboard
2 Burning Earth
4 Frostburn Weird
3 Act of
Treason
2Mizzium Mortars
2 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Skullcrack[/deck]


I only suggest Skullcrack in the board because, well, it does stop a potential life-gain situation from making the game unwinnable. Hello, Sphinx's Revelation? I mean, it's a solid upgrade from Shock in that match-up.

The deck may be a smidgeon slower, but the power level of Chandra is so good that she just cannot be ignored.

Plus, Hammer is a house during floods. Which, even with access to Magma Jet and Chandra, is still likely.


With what I've learned, this deck is a creature-laying machine that is rewarded with instant wins when your opponent can't remove all your pieces. And even if they do, your creatures are strong enough when ripped off the topdeck to be considered menaces that can't be ignored. This deck applies pressure and cannot be left alone to its own devices. It will win. It has inevitability with Mogis.


Tell me what you think, guys. I need feedback. What can I change in my deck? In my sideboard?
Tell me. Give it to me straight, doc. I need to take off heads at States. Dpaine, talk to me brutha – what insight have you gleaned from frolicking with the Fanatic? Johnny Spike, do you think this list is such an improvement that you would play it again? FoS, let me hear you opinions.

And put your fucking hand in the air. Make some fucking noise for the Mogis. Without him, we wouldn't have so many sweet choices right now.


*Also, budget talk: Does my FNM maindeck exceed 80 Dollars? Shit, don't count my foils, but look it over. It's not a lot of rares.

Which makes me think of something else.

If this deck is so affordable and high profile, you MUST expect to see it. So if my post doesn't convince you to play this deck, then I pray to the gods that this will prepare you for your eventual game with this beast. Know your enemy. Then crush him.

:themoreyouknow:

And knowing
if half the battle!

Thanks for reading this ramble.

Tl;Dr – Khaospawn is fucking awesome. :chewy:

:fourhorsemenoftheapocalypse:
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Postby Helios » Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:44 am

First off, thanks for the great, detailed post!

Mutavault: Agree that it can make hands bad. Not playing it makes total sense when you don't have a 1R two-drop. With Shredfreak gone, is 1 in the main that bad?

Your analysis of the differences between Pyromancer red and this deck seems spot on. I think the new build looks very powerful- looks like KDW is back :thumbsup:

Skullcrack: I respectfully disagree. The card does not impress me. Chandra + Scry make it a smidge better (since you are playing 2 cards to counter their 4, and they can dig way better than you can), but I don't know that it is good enough.

Burning Earth: I'd want at least 3. Naya players probably won't think to board in enchantment removal G2, and this wrecks them. Plus Esper.

Good work, Khaos. Show the world just how Swagnatic those
Fanatics really are.

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Postby Narcasus » Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:13 am

I played that exact list besides the skull crack. It is amazing versus everything but in the mirror playing bte, you get overrun before your better cards kick in. If he doesn't hit the bte chain you win though. I was happy with the list, Chandra does work.

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Postby Helios » Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:16 am

I played that exact list besides the skull crack. It is amazing versus everything but in the mirror playing bte, you get overrun before your better cards kick in. If he doesn't hit the bte chain you win though. I was happy with the list, Chandra does work.
How was Mutavault for you? (If I'm remembering correctly you had 20 mountains 2 Mutavault)

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Postby Narcasus » Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:52 am

I played that exact list besides the skull crack. It is amazing versus everything but in the mirror playing bte, you get overrun before your better cards kick in. If he doesn't hit the bte chain you win though. I was happy with the list, Chandra does work.
How was Mutavault for you? (If I'm remembering correctly you had 20 mountains 2 Mutavault)
It was 21 and two muta. It worked well, there wasn't a time it backfired and they let me get some damage in control and not overextend. I played a third in the side for control. I could see going 22 and no vaults though as I felt I didn't need
them to win and could give us a more consistant play and more gas against the mirror

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Postby Khaospawn » Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:54 am

Okay, so more Burning Earth, less Skullcrack? With Naya as a possible threat, I can get behind that.
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Postby Narcasus » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:17 am

Okay, so more Burning Earth, less Skullcrack? With Naya as a possible threat, I can get behind that.
I agree with this. 3 colors instalose. To the card and we are too fast to blue white minus a nut draw

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Postby Helios » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:36 am

Yea I think I'm going to play this at states. As much as I love Pyrored, I'm not sure it is the correct meta choice atm. Though at this point we really only have an 8 card or so difference in the 75.

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Postby DarthStabber » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:39 am

I am running a slightly different take on roughly the same deck. I don't have fnm results, mostly because the people in my area are pretty gung-ho on draft at the moment, not that I am complaining too much, I am better at draft than constructed anyway, so I'm pullin' packs and putt'n' up points. Honestly i'm probably not so much "better at limited" so much as I am not keen on spending the dough for tier one decks most years. At any rate that is a different tangent for a different day. Before, in between, and after rounds me and some other players have been testing out standard rigs and I have been enjoying a good win rate (against a primarily UWx control metagame) with this pile:
[Deck]
4 rakdos cackler
4 firedrinker satyr
4 firefist striker
4 ash zealot
4 rakdos shred-freak
4 chandra's phoenix
3 fanatic of mogis

Spells
4 magma jet
4 lightning strike
2 hammer of purphoros

Lands
2
mutavault
21 mountain
[/deck]

My noticing has been that fanatic is good, but his etb is not as great as advertised. Most of the time I play him he hits for 3 or 4, so he's effectively haste unblockable on his first turn. Turns out though that 3-4 is enough, even if he hits for one it's often worth it to drop a 4/2 on an empty board. The deck in general seems to me that it relies on the power of haste and individual creatures to do the work. Each card is just another push in the same direction, and they all hit for at least 2 on their own. Calling it a combo is generous, fanatic is just a laval axe with a body. The real work is done by hasters keeping the pressure on after a board wipe. Reckoner sits happy in the board for aggro matches, calling his tripple coast an advantage is a touch generous, as it complicates things a little with mutavault, but he's workable, and he's amazing in certain matchups, but his lack of immediate impact is notable. One drops, hammer, and strikers already durdle
around the turn they come into play, my main can't take anymore layabouts. I do feel that my local meta might be a touch control heavy to make broad pronouncements, but this is what I haave to report either way. I have left out the sideboard as it is back in flux at the moment while I try to figure out the optimum toolset to deal with gw aggro (my worst matchup at the mument).
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Postby Zooligan » Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:59 pm

I'm not sure if we're getting any closer to consensus on Devotion Red. We are all very close in MB lists tho.

Here's what I've come to after this past Friday:

[deck] Hasty Devoted Fanatic[/deck]

So, questions.

Why Shortcuter? Because it has an immediate impact on the board (Falter).

Why Shred-Freak? Because it impacts the board immediately (Haste).

Why no Reckoner? Because it has no immediate impact on the board, and it makes the curve top-heavy at the 3-spot. Seems better for a Big Red build. Until Reckoner we had
few options at the 3 spot, now we've got too many!

Why no Hammer? Because it has no immediate impact on the board. Yeah, it's good for a sink, but by the time we drop it and activate it, we should already have the opponent in burn range or we are pretty much done. Seems better for a Big Red build.

Should the SB be built to answer specific archetypes, or should it be a transformational SB and take us from an aggro build to a controlly/midrange build?

Now a really big question - Would dropping Fanatic altogether and putting in Rubblebelt Makka to jam through 3 extra uncounterable damage for :symr: be better?

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Postby Khaospawn » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:17 pm

I'm not sure if we're getting any closer to consensus on Devotion Red. We are all very close in MB lists tho.

Here's what I've come to after this past Friday:

[deck] Hasty Devoted Fanatic[/deck]

So, questions.

Why Shortcuter? Because it has an immediate impact on the board (Falter).

Why Shred-Freak? Because it impacts the board immediately (Haste).

nWhy no Reckoner? Because it has no immediate impact on the board, and it makes the curve top-heavy at the 3-spot. Seems better for a Big Red build. Until Reckoner we had few options at the 3 spot, now we've got too many!

Why no Hammer? Because it has no immediate impact on the board. Yeah, it's good for a sink, but by the time we drop it and activate it, we should already have the opponent in burn range or we are pretty much done. Seems better for a Big Red build.

Should the SB be built to answer specific archetypes, or should it be a transformational SB and take us from an aggro build to a controlly/midrange build?

Now a really big question - Would dropping Fanatic altogether and putting in Rubblebelt Makka to jam through 3 extra uncounterable damage for :symr: be better?
Seems to me like you want to play a fast attacking deck, like Owen Turtenwald's
list from the Open.
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Postby LP, of the Fires » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:30 pm

If you're playing red agro, I think you should be playing 4 shock. If I new I would always draw a shock in my opener, I'd want to be on the draw every time.
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Postby Narcasus » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:34 pm

I'm not sure if we're getting any closer to consensus on Devotion Red. We are all very close in MB lists tho.

Here's what I've come to after this past Friday:

[deck] Hasty Devoted Fanatic[/deck]

So, questions.

Why Shortcuter? Because it has an immediate impact on the board (Falter).

Why Shred-Freak? Because it impacts the board immediately (Haste).

Why no
Reckoner? Because it has no immediate impact on the board, and it makes the curve top-heavy at the 3-spot. Seems better for a Big Red build. Until Reckoner we had few options at the 3 spot, now we've got too many!

Why no Hammer? Because it has no immediate impact on the board. Yeah, it's good for a sink, but by the time we drop it and activate it, we should already have the opponent in burn range or we are pretty much done. Seems better for a Big Red build.

Should the SB be built to answer specific archetypes, or should it be a transformational SB and take us from an aggro build to a controlly/midrange build?

Now a really big question - Would dropping Fanatic altogether and putting in Rubblebelt Makka to jam through 3 extra uncounterable damage for :symr: be better?
I feel like you might as well go all in and play bte with this style. Cut Chandra to sb
and go down to 2 shred freaks

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Postby Zooligan » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:09 pm

[quote="]. Naya players probably won't think to board in enchantment removal G2, and this wrecks them. Plus Esper.[/quote]

Except Esper will just D-Sphere them on sight.

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Postby Zooligan » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:21 pm

I feel like you might as well go all in and play bte with this style. Cut Chandra to sb and go down to 2 shred freaks
So you're saying either Reckoner/Hammer/Fanatic Devotion or BTE->FFS/GHC swarm?

I don't know. I think going with an immediate board impact build like what I posted above is a viable alternative.

Really, the main question for me is Fanatic or Makka. Fanatic has the potential to hit for more, but vs heavy control, you will be lucky to have any board presence at all (best player at my LGS runs an Esper list with 14 instant speed removal/bounce spells!!). That's why I'm considering Makka. If/when something connects, I can jam an extra 3 in for a single mana.

Of course if you do ditch Fanatic, you don't really need
devotion at all, it just turns out that the cards that have immediate impact happen to have dual pips in them (except Shortcutter, of course).

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Postby Link » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:01 pm

I think skullcrack should not be overlooked here. The Junk deck in the top 8 crushed a mono red deck with the simple T3 smiter, T4 unflinching courage.

Also whip of erebos.

You can't just "Mogis people out" if they are gaining life. And IF they are gaining life, burning earth isnt that huge a problem for them unless you curve out on the play with it before they can set up their "life-gain" package.

I really like the list Khaos. cutting shredfreak is understandable so you can just always burn an early dude on t2, ash zealot, or hell just magma jet to set up your draws. Chandra is just that sexy. I'd probably still squeeze a mutavault in as the 23rd land but thats just me XD

Does it suck if you 0 and hit a skullcrack? maybe. Maybe you should approach those matchups in a different way, like +1ing chandra to race them
while keeping skullcrack mana up for when they try to suit some guy up or land some life gain.

The problem I have with burning earth is that unlike chandra and fanatic, it doesnt actually [i:26a29gwh]do[/i:26a29gwh] anything the turn it comes down. Its like "do I win?" or not. Your opponent CAN play aruond it and draw a line to victory, whereas and chandra and fanatic do something ASAP and skullcrack is a "blow-out" card when they desperately need to gain life from the phoenix beat downs and the fanatic burst range.

I mean yeah, you can randomly steal some games with burning earth, OR you can just have it do 3 damage and get d-sphered, or have them land a blood baron, and continue to have no pressure or value from it (same can happen to chandra, but I hope my point makes sense. Untapping with chandra is WAY scarier than getting to untap with burning earth).

I wasn't even a fan last season because Jund could win through it, and sure theres less lifegain options around to kill you
but you can still die to resolved desecration demons/reckoners/blood baron/obzedats and a bunch of other shit while it does nothing.

Skullcrack says NO to stabilizing, while Burning earth says "you can either beat this or you cant" and is ironically more narrow.


I think Khaos idea of the build is a bit more right. Sure you can "unload" with BTE for "bigger" bursts of fanatic and what not, but you have to play worse cards because of it. Cards that midrange can just outclass and laugh at.

Ash zealot+burn is hard to stabilize against, phoenix is hard, shredfreak at least has haste himself and can be guaranteed to get in when you need him to.

Chandra also gives you a solid plan B if they 1-1 your guys and you can't fanatic of mogis for a reasonable amount. I like Khaos' take on the deck, its a lot less all-in and more solid RDW style. Except with reckoner and devotion instead of young peezy and his mutavault crew.
Last edited by Link on Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Helios » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:03 pm

Except Esper will just D-Sphere them on sight.
So what you're telling me is that Burning Earth hasn't been wrecking Esper decks...

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Postby Link » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:14 pm

I think I might try out a pyrewild shaman over the hammer by expecting a midrangey meta. people wont play around it (because theyll assume I dont have maakas with the rest of my setup) and it works very well with the phoenix to grind out over a board stall.

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Postby Link » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:22 pm

so with the pyrewild in the main, sb like:

2 Hammer of Purphorous
4 Frostburn Weird
3 Act of Treason
4 Skullcrack
2 Mizzium Mortars

I like to start with control first, so I figure -2 shocks +2 hammers, -4 lightning strikes +4 upgrade to skullcrack. Leave in magma jets cause awesome.

Took out flames because I think frostburn werid and reckoner already does enough work in the mirror.

Chandra's Phoenix is by far my favorite card in the deck so far though, evasion in red?!? I just outraced G/W with a bunch of ground shit by triple phoenix into topdecked Fanatic XD

Firedrinker is pretty sexy too. I've gone down to like 14 against esper just firebreathing with a bunch of gas in my hand.

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Postby Khaospawn » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:39 pm

Fate, I actually really like that sideboard.
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Postby DarthStabber » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:22 pm

I'm still way unconvinced about skullcrack. Whip of erebos is much better answered by smelt, skullcrack stops one turn of life gain, smelt stops it "cold". I've been working on a pet splash black version, and rakdos charm is 2 sideboard cards and a possible big burn to the face, it's actually way better than anyone gives credit for. Either way you don't want it in UWx matches, because sphinxes rev for 3 is not a huge deal, you should be worried about the cards, more speed is more important in that match.
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Postby Khaospawn » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:24 pm

Shattering blow is better for artifact removal, I think. It costs 2 but it exiles.

Or maybe Smelt would be better cuz it's cheaper.

Now I'm confused.
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Postby Tyrael » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:39 pm

I don't think Whip decks currently have a way to bring it back after it has been destroyed so I would go with Smelt.
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Postby Yarpus » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:43 pm

Wear // Tear, splash single Temple of Triumph for 0.1% possibility of destroying someone's enchantment.
Okay Mono G, I get it - but remove that Bow of Nylea and Noob Satyr from the field please.
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Postby Tyrael » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:45 pm

Wear // Tear, splash single Temple of Triumph for 0.1% possibility of destroying someone's enchantment.
That ... is genius!
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Postby Yarpus » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:49 pm

Abuse the Fuse Son.
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Postby zemanjaski » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:57 pm

Just to nip this in the bud, Rubblebelt Maaka is horrible.
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