[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[JWarson88]

Just took down a 12man single elim on trice with z's Ashenmancer deck.

4 Firedrinker
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
1 Hammer of Purphoros
21 Mountain
2 Mutavault

SB
3 Burning Earth
1 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Mutavault
3 Boros Reckoner

Games were against R/G, MBC, and Esper. Unfortunately the last guy wasn't online when i finished as the esper match up took forever.

The deck is really good at creating difficult decisions for your opponent and with doom blade in the format, Cackler puts in work.

So far the clans assesments of these archetypes has been correct. The only real nail biter was the esper and that was caused by a couple of misplays on my part. The board is still a work in progress, I think the format will become a little more polar between
aggro and control by the time states comes around.

also freedom was in the same tournament but I don't know what he was running or what he went against.

[Helios]

Good job J!

[Haiiro Sedai]

Go look at the SCG results then. Clearly red can't beat a revelation deck....

Consider, also, that the cards that allowed 9 mana revelations are gone. UW no longer has Snapcaster, Resto, and Augur of Bolas. Those were the real problem cards.

I never said red can't beat a revelation deck, I said red can't beat large revelations it can win by going under which is the whole plan. That and did you watch the finals? Mana screwed two games in a row is an exciting match....

My entire point wasn't "RED AUTO FOLDS TO UW QQ!!!!" My argument was, if you are deciding between UR and UW control, UW has tools that when played win the game then and there. UR doesn't.

Huh. I was often playing against guy who was in the semifinals of FNM Championships (yes, the big, international ones). He played Bant, I was either Sledgehammer Red or RDW. And most of the time I won.
Had this game when he resolved 3 Thragtusks, blinked them twice AND resolved 2 revelations. Still won by stealing his Jace with ult ready (he admitted the mistake after - didn't expected anyone to play Zealous Conscripts), taking his last Thragtusk and my Thundermaw, doing some beating. He wrath'd. I get the token at least. Casting Stonewright and starting to grind him for ten life per turn. So really, we were/are/going to be capable of doing stuff like that.
There's no bant anymore. People don't resolve Revelation for 10. They do for 3. 3 life, 3 cards. And hey, don't call that unbeatable please. <laugh>

The most unbeatable thing that control has is Aetherling. It resolves => it's gonna grind you down
and it's impossible to get rid of it. That's what I call inevitability. But to cast him and kill, UW actually needs to control the board state. And it's not that easy these days.

You weren't playing RDW. RDW is a weenie sligh aggressive deck. If you have the mana to cast thundermaw and zealous conscripts you aren't RDW. Also, you no longer have either of those tools thankfully

Again you are missing my point.

My argument is this.

When playing against RDW (ala Owen/Davis as seen in the top 8. Weenie sligh decks)

UR has no way to stop RDW from winning except eventually killing him.
UW can by landing either one large or several medium (note, not small) revelations.

[LP, of the Fires]

UR does have faster interaction which is noteworthy.

@Carolina Folks:

What's Nuwen's deck?

I remember seeing it a while ago and it seemed good.

[Link]

what irrelevant cards does GR have to play? ramp? also made out on hammers then


and yeah rakdos is a beast pick up exavas now

[LP, of the Fires]

3 Counterflux
1 Dissolve
4 Magma Jet
1 Turn // Burn
3 Thoughtflare
2 AEtherling
4 Frostburn Weird
2 Essence Scatter
2 Opportunity
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Izzet Charm
4 Temple of Deceit
3 Blood Crypt
4 Steam Vents
4 Watery Grave
2 Izzet Guildgate
5 Island
5 Mountain
2 Far // Away
2 Dreadbore
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
SB: 1 Negate
SB: 1 Dreadbore
SB: 1 Jace, Memory Adept
SB: 3 Shock
SB: 1 Counterflux
SB: 1 Dispel
SB: 1 Doom Blade
SB: 2 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Turn // Burn

Played a couple matches with this and it does indeed crush the control mirror. Countered relevant threats, resolved an aetherling, he ultimate an Elspeth, then the turn I was gonna kill him with damage, he sphinxe'd for all but the last 2 cards in his deck. I took the OPPORTUNITY to target him and laugh manically.

Postboard games, won with aetherling while I had Big Jace, Niv, and double counter
magic in hand.

[LP, of the Fires]

GR has problems with control if it's midrangy. You're walkers are all good obviously, but all your dudes die to all of there removal/verdicts, and without the reach, they can land there win-con while you're walkers are doing marginal things on empty boards.

[Yarpus]

You weren't playing RDW. RDW is a weenie sligh aggressive deck. If you have the mana to cast thundermaw and zealous conscripts you aren't RDW. Also, you no longer have either of those tools thankfully

Played RDW as well later. Stonewright actually did the exact same shit, but there were no Bant decks to beat anymore (sadly).
Mountains are beastly cards, dude. They kill people (when you have Koth on the field).

UR has no way to stop RDW from winning except eventually killing him.
UW can by landing either one large or several medium (note, not small) revelations.

You don't beat RDW with lifegain but with board control. There are no quality-burn spells available at the moment, at least not in terms of damage output they generate. And as LP noted, UR interacts with full
board a turn earlier than UW. And has much better removal suite against them as overall (without maindeck overextending into that matchup!). I don't need to play 4 Angers main to have a decent game against RDW. I can just burn their creatures, counter some shit and proceed to do my plan.
UW has nearly no effective removal against RDW maindeck. You have Azorius Charms and Detention Spheres. Besides of positive situations like 3for1'ing your opponent as he played triple Cackler - it's much less efficent.

UR has much worse matchup against midranges as all it has in those situations is either counterspells or using 2 cards to deal with one. Still, there's SB Mizzium Mortars which doesn't really deal with Obzedat, Polukranos and other 5/5 fatties. Unlike UW though, UR deals with Blood Baron and Stormbreath Dragon.
Deck choice is highly meta-dependant. Current results are showing that midrange doesn't fare that well. That's why UR has a chance to become a serious deck.

@LP
Decklist looks pretty
sweet, but I still can't forgive you that black splash. It's just disgusting!

[Helios]

I never said red can't beat a revelation deck, I said red can't beat large revelations it can win by going under which is the whole plan. That and did you watch the finals? Mana screwed two games in a row is an exciting match....

My entire point wasn't "RED AUTO FOLDS TO UW QQ!!!!" My argument was, if you are deciding between UR and UW control, UW has tools that when played win the game then and there. UR doesn't.

Yea, the finals were a mess. Would have much preferred to see a real game. I don't really consider there to be much difference between #1 and #12 in such a large tournament, though, because it really is a one-match difference, where things like mana screw can happen a round earlier and bump you out of the top 8.

I do agree
that large Revelations are difficult to beat; however, large revelations are going to be harder to get to. Revelation will still be a role-player, of course, but doesn't have the support it had before. UR seems to be going the "resolve aetherling, race" plan at the moment, where UW can play Elspeth and Aetherling side-by-side. I agree with you there.

[Link]

also boon satyr is wrath protection like you guys dont even know

[JWarson88]

Me and Freedom decided to call Z's pyro list Assmaster Red

[Haiiro Sedai]

Last breath is going to be main deck material in most uw lists.
Acharm is still a thing.

You may well be right that ur is better against the weenies but small aggro will shift to larger and larger aggro as the Meta shifts and uw will always have a list to compete

[zemanjaski]

I may have asked earlier but you guys post so much..

How is the mana THAT bad in G/W? Can't you do 8 Forest, 8 Plains, 4 Temple Garden, 4 Sel GG?

Doesn't seem that bad to me, especially without one drops

- now you're playing 24 land in a deck with no mana sinks, when really want to run ~22; so you have lower than ideal threat density
- never having an aggressive 1 drop makes you super weak to control and you're already weak to doom blade decks
- you can only made 12 of either colour turn 1; you need 14 for consistency, but once you start slanting to do that you start having trouble making GW on turn 2.

These aren't huge issues, but they'll probably cost you about 1/6 to 1/7 games, in addition to regular mana screw/flood.
That makes the deck pretty unreliable in a 10 round event.

[hamfactorial]

New guy dropping knowledge. Sweet!

[zemanjaski]

Go look at the SCG results then. Clearly red can't beat a revelation deck....

Consider, also, that the cards that allowed 9 mana revelations are gone. UW no longer has Snapcaster, Resto, and Augur of Bolas. Those were the real problem cards.

I never said red can't beat a revelation deck, I said red can't beat large revelations it can win by going under which is the whole plan. That and did you watch the finals? Mana screwed two games in a row is an exciting match....

My entire point wasn't "RED AUTO FOLDS TO UW QQ!!!!" My argument was, if you are deciding
between UR and UW control, UW has tools that when played win the game then and there. UR doesn't.

Huh. I was often playing against guy who was in the semifinals of FNM Championships (yes, the big, international ones). He played Bant, I was either Sledgehammer Red or RDW. And most of the time I won.
Had this game when he resolved 3 Thragtusks, blinked them twice AND resolved 2 revelations. Still won by stealing his Jace with ult ready (he admitted the mistake after - didn't expected anyone to play Zealous Conscripts), taking his last Thragtusk and my Thundermaw, doing some beating. He wrath'd. I get the token at least. Casting Stonewright and starting to grind him for ten life per turn. So really, we were/are/going to be capable of doing stuff like that.
There's no bant anymore. People don't resolve Revelation for 10. They do for 3. 3 life, 3
cards. And hey, don't call that unbeatable please. <laugh>

The most unbeatable thing that control has is Aetherling. It resolves => it's gonna grind you down and it's impossible to get rid of it. That's what I call inevitability. But to cast him and kill, UW actually needs to control the board state. And it's not that easy these days.

You weren't playing RDW. RDW is a weenie sligh aggressive deck. If you have the mana to cast thundermaw and zealous conscripts you aren't RDW. Also, you no longer have either of those tools thankfully

Again you are missing my point.

My argument is this.

When playing against RDW (ala Owen/Davis as seen in the top 8. Weenie sligh decks)

UR has no way to stop RDW from winning except eventually killing him.
UW can by landing either one large or several medium (note, not small) revelations.

Toured deck archetype definitions
are erroneous. This is something that greatly annoys me.

[Jack]

Haiiro, where did you come from? Your first post was in the clan thread, and right from the get-go, you started calling us out on our shit. I think I like you.

[Jack]

And yes, I will be writing ASSMASTER RED on my decklist for states.

[Jack]

Oh, and LP, here's Nuwen's list. It's very consistent.
[deck]Nuwen Rakis[/deck]

[Yarpus]

New guy dropping knowledge. Sweet!

He still likes Purphoros and doesn't consider Mountain as The Ultimate Land.
But he'll learn... one day....

Last breath is going to be main deck material in most uw lists.

So it'll totally fold to non-Red decks.
Because when you have Magma Jet (as comparison) you:
- don't give your opponent 4 life
- you get Scry 2
- you can point at your opponent and say "hey, dude, you're loosing 2 life, okay?"

You may well be right that ur is better against the weenies but small aggro will shift to larger and larger aggro as the Meta shifts and uw will always have a list to compete

Rakdos and Gruul decklists have some potential to do that. But Mono Red? Nah. Of course the decklists are going to evolve sooner or later, but adding dragons doesn't actually help that much. And with
dragon addition, UW is still sore while UR at least in theory has the tools to dispose of the dragon.

@Freedom
I asked him to join us from Sally.
Also, Madcap? Really? I mean, you have thousands of good cards to play with and then you choose Madcap. I've heard the results of the deck - but not sure if Madcap couldn't be exchanged for something better. Like anything.

[Helios]

Haiiro, where did you come from? Your first post was in the clan thread, and right from the get-go, you started calling us out on our shit. I think I like you.

Agreed, I am a fan. Props

[Link]

I read more that Im home now and your issue witH GR is "subotimal ramp targets"

which is why I think I stumbled upon a gem with my budget gruul list. instead of cram awkward cards in place of not having stormbreath/kalonian hydra, I didn't run them.

And its surprisingly effective.

Your ramp targets are T3 4-drops monsters, and making those monstrous with later mana.

Your 5 drop you ramp into is JUST boon satyr. Thats all. No dragons, no hydras, just the sweetest pump effect green has seen since GCR.

You play some Ruric thar because like you said ruric thar.

Did I mentioon you also play 6+ planeswalkers? playing those undercurve is big game too.


@LP: I think nuwen posted in the Rakdos Carnage thread in the clan forum, it needs fine tuning but Exava and mogis marauders are sweet fucking magic cards.

Also @LP: Control has been my easiest match-up with gruul midrange. aggro is hit or miss, they
can be really punishing if I stumble and dont have early ramp (or they burn it), but controls always been a cake walk. Resolved elspeth is the biggest problem but when you laugh at Jace AoT and are playing your PW engines on T2-T4 you can get out ahead of her early. Verdicts really odnt hurt you that bad. I've forced verdicts on 5/3 dorks (BOON SATYR) because theyve had to. Then Ive had a 4/2 to kill them. And PW still shit on them yes, especially when you side in Revelrys for the only early answer to them.

[Link]

Also, Madcap? Really? I mean, you have thousands of good cards to play with and then you choose Madcap. I've heard the results of the deck - but not sure if Madcap couldn't be exchanged for something better. Like anything.

Madcap is a really solid card, trust me. When yuo answer a T1 guildgate with a T2 Madcap on tormented hero 6 life swing, its insane.

It makes the deck extra punishing, and even if its a 2-1 you got the damage done (if done safely).

Think about it, Aggro ALWAYS 2-1s itself for damage.

Gotta play 2 dudes into verdict dont you?

Gotta swing 2 spike jester into reckoner dont you? Or spear him?

Madcap is the same thing, only its damage output is INSANE. Dont even get me started when you play
after a T2 0/3 plant (they dont have much MB removal) or a desecration demon.

it also is nice to have a very easy "side out" choice in the deck. When you know youre always taking out madcap skills for a lot of MUs (pretty much everything except gruul midraneg Id say, and even then its probably best to take it out), it makes it easier to craft the SB numbers.



Just try it. I'd almost consider more if I didnlt like magma jet so much, but it just allows you to be SUPER aggressive and punishing. It demands an immediate answer. If you swing with madcap skills twice youve won the game, flat out.

[Helios]

Yarpus: You have thousands of good cards to play with, and you chose to try Ordeal of Purphoros and not play magma jet.

Also, Madcap skills is pretty sweet.

[Haiiro Sedai]

New guy dropping knowledge. Sweet!

He still likes Purphoros and doesn't consider Mountain as The Ultimate Land.
But he'll learn... one day....

Umm....no.

I am actively in pain when I tap for red and not counting storm. If I wasn't doing so well with Rw atm I wouldn't be here most likely.

[LP, of the Fires]

I played madcap once, scrubbed out of a 5k and hated myself.

Card is absurdly powerful though so I can't fault anyone that runs it.

And yeah, connecting twice with a madcapped creature is game 90% of the time.

[DroppinSuga]

Why are you here if you don't champion red decks?

[Jack]

New guy dropping knowledge. Sweet!

He still likes Purphoros and doesn't consider Mountain as The Ultimate Land.
But he'll learn... one day....

I am actively in pain when I tap for red

You learn to love the burning sensation.

[Link]

I also like the look of R/u aggro.

The best way to deal with elspeth?

Izzet charm.

BOOM

[LP, of the Fires]

[deck]LK Rakis[/deck]

Probably my starting point. I could definitely see making place for Chandra's phoenix in the board. Not sure if I like it more then xathrid necroman though.

[Yarpus]

It makes the deck extra punishing, and even if its a 2-1 you got the damage done (if done safely).

Everything is good when it's done safely.

Sometimes I hate reading you Fate. I mean... you usually say things that might be wrong, but feels so right. <laugh> I don't mean anything offensive redbro. I actually believe in you and your decks.
I like the philosophy of no big-ramp targets, just efficent mana sinks. I'd love to see a decklist with Skarrg Guildmage as enabler for big guys AND maybe even friggin Clan Defiance. I mean, this card is value. And it's mean. 1for2 is like "cool brah noproblem", 1for3 is "this shit feels fine". Actually I believe Xenagos enables such things. Consider that when putting up new Gruul build. Dorks, Xenagos, mana sinks. Sounds cool for me.

Still can't fully trust Madcap. I mean... okay, I get that in control matchup. But what
worries me is aggro matchup, especially against Zem's Red. Shocks while being awkward, let you become interactive as fuck => responding to Madcap. If decklist ever gets more popular, Madcap feels like a trash to me again.

Yarpus: You have thousands of good cards to play with, and you chose to try Ordeal of Purphoros and not play magma jet.

GODDAMIT, I THOUGHT THAT WHEN CREATURE DIES IT ACTUALLY TRIGGERS. Then it'd be a fine piece of magic card. Now I strongly believe it's trashiest trash.

[Haiiro Sedai]

Madcap is decent vs creature decks but terrible vs blue. Meta call is meta call. I wouldn't run it atm because the creature decks you are likely to face will just burn your fatty and you get a 2 for 1.


Edit while posting, I hate this forum software

[Yarpus]

Well, at least mods don't cut the whole discussion because someone says 'Fuck', or 'What's the best card of the format and why is it Purge the Profane' jokes.


Sanctioned with extreme prejudice for saying fuck for no fucking reason.
--Feel more at home now, Yarpus? -photo

[Link]

thats what my gruul build is though Yarpus, when i went undefeated except against Nuwen against "big contenders" of the new format like UW control and Dega and White weenies and G/B, it just felt really powerful and I didn't miss the dragons at all.

The numbers still need work, but yeah, the curve is pretty sweet and the mana sinks are there. I sadly have decided hammer of purphorous is just a much better "make my lands dudes" card than Skarrg guildmage, because hasting out 4-drops and Ruric thar is no goddamn joke. (and better than giving them trample).

I'd have more Xenagos in there but I split have 1-1 split with chandra just because chandra ffs.
Current mana sinks:
Clan Defiance x1
Hammer of Purphorous x1
Polis Crusher monsrtousx2
Ember swallower monstroustx3
Polukranos monstroust x1
scavenging oozex3

[Helios]

Yarpus: You have thousands of good cards to play with, and you chose to try Ordeal of Purphoros and not play magma jet.

GODDAMIT, I THOUGHT THAT WHEN CREATURE DIES IT ACTUALLY TRIGGERS. Then it'd be a fine piece of magic card. Now I strongly believe it's trashiest trash.

[Haiiro Sedai]

Why are you here if you don't champion red decks?

To troll yarpus and bring back smsweet memories of martyr of sands to those who may have forgotten.

[Yarpus]

I'd still try to squeeze singleton Skarrg. Polukranos is mean, but can be chumpblocked for ages. Same goes for big Oozes and monstrous Swallowers.
After seeing Open, I actually like Polis Crusher as fat asshole who ruins the Detention Sphere/Chained to the Rocks party.

To troll yarpus and bring back smsweet memories of martyr of sands to those who may have forgotten.

You actually fit in here, silly. Except of that non-Mountain fetish. I mean eww, it's weird.
Martyr of Sands (in vagina)... never played against this card. But I've played lots of the most boring control decks humankind ever knew (played UW Venser during whole Zen-Som Standard), before converting to Flames. Actually lots of us here have Control roots. We play Red now, but we mostly talk about competetive Red. Not the one you can put into hands of 12-years old and expect him to win the local FNM. "Firedrinker Satyr
Sucks" "Vexing Devil is the Jesus Christ in form of Magic card" <-- that's why we left Sally.

Troll me? Son, you've never heard my "polish stories" about drinking denaturated alcohol or grain alcohol while using snow as chaser. It ain't gonna be easy task, to troll me.

[rcwraspy]

3 Counterflux
[deck]
Creatures
2 AEtherling
4 Frostburn Weird

Spells
1 Dissolve
4 Magma Jet
1 Turn // Burn
3 Thoughtflare
2 Essence Scatter
2 Opportunity
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Izzet Charm
2 Far // Away
2 Dreadbore

Planeswalkers
2 Jace, Architect of Thought

Land
4 Temple of Deceit
3 Blood Crypt
4 Steam Vents
4 Watery Grave
2 Izzet Guildgate
5 Island
5 Mountain

Sideboard
1 Negate
1 Dreadbore
1 Jace, Memory Adept
3 Shock
1 Counterflux
1 Dispel
1 Doom Blade
2 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
3 Thoughtseize
1 Turn // Burn
[/deck]

Played a couple matches with this and it does indeed crush the control mirror. Countered relevant threats, resolved an aetherling, he ultimate an Elspeth, then the turn I was gonna kill him with damage,
he sphinxe'd for all but the last 2 cards in his deck. I took the OPPORTUNITY to target him and laugh manically.

Postboard games, won with aetherling while I had Big Jace, Niv, and double counter magic in hand.

Why are our best deckbuilders also our worst deck taggers? I'm looking at you, too, Z.

Tagged in the quote.

[Haiiro Sedai]

I'd still try to squeeze singleton Skarrg. Polukranos is mean, but can be chumpblocked for ages. Same goes for big Oozes and monstrous Swallowers.
After seeing Open, I actually like Polis Crusher as fat asshole who ruins the Detention Sphere/Chained to the Rocks party.

But that art! Ugh....

Polis may be sweet though. Monster GR has a pretty good weenie matchup at least theoretically.

[rcwraspy]

[deck]
Creatures
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
4 Thrill-Kill Assassin
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Mogis's Marauder
4 Spike Jester
3 Rakdos Shred-Freak

Spells
4 Magma Jet
2 Dreadbore
3 Lightning Strike
2 Madcap Skills

Land
3 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Blood Crypt
9 Swamp
7 Mountain

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Underworld Connections
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Dreadbore
3 Pharika's Cure
3 Act of Treason
[/deck]

Probably my starting point. I could definitely see making place for Chandra's phoenix in the board. Not sure if I like it more then xathrid necroman though.

Also tagged. Also, assuming "Searing Spear" was Lightning Strike.

-wraspy, we're on
the same page...I was deck-tagging above and got down here to find you doing the same lol! -photo

[LP, of the Fires]

Ain't nobody got time for deck tags.

And Fate, PoloK vs. Deadbridge? What do your results yield?