[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

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Haiiro Sedai
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Postby Haiiro Sedai » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:35 am

Oh there's plenty of awful brews there, was just amused that the first things I saw were mentions of Ral Zerek RuG and then Grixis. Decks I do expect to see ova there.
This is the deck I was talking about on the stream this morning. It's still pretty rough, but blue seems like a much better splash color than white for aggressive decks right now.
[deck]
Creatures (28)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Fanatic of Mogis

Spells (11)
4 Izzet Charm
4 Magma Jet
3 Turn // Burn

Land (21)
4 Steam Vents
4 Izzet Guildgate
1 Mutavault
8 Mountain
4 Island

Sideboard (15)
3 Izzet Staticaster
4 Counterflux
1 Essence Scatter
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Jace, Memory Adept
3
Mizzium Mortars
[/deck]
Is there anything you specifically want the Turn//Burn for? Just for DD/BBoV?

I'm not a huge fan of Jace, Memory in the board as it seems to be fairly out of left field, or do you just expect U/W to side out negates? It seems like it would be interesting.

I do think I like this izzet list.

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Postby zemanjaski » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:41 am

Things Alex and I agreed on last night:
- Firedrinker Satyr is a good card
- Chandra is good vs. control
- Reckoner is great vs. midrange but we're expecting a lot of esper control for States, which is his worst matchup
- Hammer of Purphorous is OP
- there is no reason to play Gruul Aggro now, so BTE is bad. GCR is still beast though.
- Rakdos aggro is actually good
- there aren't any good midrange decks, due to a lack of good mana (dega) or irrelevant cards to play (GR)
- cards you need to be mindful of: supreme verdict, Sphinx's Rev, doom blade, Rakdos Cackler, anger of the gods.
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Postby LP, of the Fires » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:43 am

Blue decks are generally gonna have 2 counters max against you unless they're running syncopate so it's fairly easy to resolve some random huge threat.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby redthirst » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:45 am

Rakdos Aggro good, huh? I sure would like to play my Spike Jesters again...
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Postby JWarson88 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:48 am

Rakdos Aggro good, huh? I sure would like to play my Spike Jesters again...
I've been finding the Cackler my most resilient creature with all of the black removal floating around if that is any indication for you

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Postby hamfactorial » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:49 am

Chandra is good vs. control
Constructed 1/5, say the experts

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Postby Yarpus » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:51 am

I'm a huge fan of Izzet brews. I agree that mixing black or green into that is pretty damn awfull idea though.
Having access to Anger of the Gods, Aetherling and counterspells without awkward manabase is worth the deal. Ral Zarek COULD be a thing in here, as you can just consider him as double bolt. If you can control the field for long enough, he's capable of ulting though - which is another serious threat. I've seen resolved Zarek's ult once. And all I can say is: DAYUM.
Not sure about Steam Augury. It gives you Card Advantage with inferior quality. We actually do have a good filter - Izzet Charm. It's one of those cards that are difficult to evaluate. So on this case, feedback and testing is really, really required to say anything certain.
Turn // Burn might not fit into every Izzet deck. Actually, I'd say it's good in decks that play Frostburn Weird as there's some chance for 2for1. And with access to Anger AND
lots of flexxible removal, I am not sure if we really need Frostburn at all.
Can't post any serious decklist as I cannot figure out the deck yet. If anyone has ideas - give me a shot as I am fairly clueless.
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Postby Alex » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:51 am

Oh there's plenty of awful brews there, was just amused that the first things I saw were mentions of Ral Zerek RuG and then Grixis. Decks I do expect to see ova there.
This is the deck I was talking about on the stream this morning. It's still pretty rough, but blue seems like a much better splash color than white for aggressive decks right now.
[deck]
Creatures (28)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Fanatic of Mogis

Spells (11)
4 Izzet Charm
4 Magma Jet
3 Turn // Burn

Land (21)
4 Steam Vents
4 Izzet Guildgate
n1 Mutavault
8 Mountain
4 Island

Sideboard (15)
3 Izzet Staticaster
4 Counterflux
1 Essence Scatter
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Jace, Memory Adept
3 Mizzium Mortars
[/deck]
Is there anything you specifically want the Turn//Burn for? Just for DD/BBoV?

I'm not a huge fan of Jace, Memory in the board as it seems to be fairly out of left field, or do you just expect U/W to side out negates? It seems like it would be interesting.

I do think I like this izzet list.
Turn // Burn is to combat enemy Boros Reckoners to avoid having to 2-for-1 yourself in the exchange.

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Postby Yarpus » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:56 am

Alex, I'd still question 21 lands and that Jace Memory Adept. Why not Ral Zarek? I mean, he can untap lands or creatures AND tap potential blockers removing them from fight. He actually deserves a spot in Izzet Aggro. He does everything you ever want him to do. Removing blockers, opening your mana or making your creatures vigiliant, sending bolts and threatening with disgusting ultimate.
Hey, you can even tap control's land before combat step and force it to have no mana open for counterspell for bigfatthreat you're gonna play post combat.
I remember that once someone was talking about squeezing Memory Adepts into Izzet Aggro... actually he was really serious about it, did the whole testing and failed miserably.
Last edited by Yarpus on Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Alex » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:57 am

You're not playing Jace in aggro matchups.

Also Ral Zarek is not a good card.

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Postby Alex » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:59 am

Also I put the wrong Jace, that's suppsed to be Architect of Thought. Derp.

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Postby LP, of the Fires » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:03 am

Ok, Alex does have a sexy voice.

Didn't know that hammer was 5 bucks. Value.
Last edited by LP, of the Fires on Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby Yarpus » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:03 am

I know you're usually right, but Memory Adept just feels so wrong. It's cool, the whole idea of attacking from different angles - but damn, isn't it clunky. Maybe you are right, as they will often side out Negate/Detention Sphere against you.
Ral Zarek was a failure because of archetypes that played him. UWR control had much better and deeper cardpool, so Zarek was underperforming. For deck similiar to yours, I think he could be considered as M:tG card actually. As I told, his +1 is relevant. His -2 is obviously relevant because nothing feels as good as bolt. And last but not least, his ultimate is really, really threatening. Unlike Jace, he supports your whole gameplan.
My issue with Memory Adept is - your opponent is at 10 life. And you draw Jace. And you start milling your opponent. Zarek would be able to at least get him down to 7/4 based on amount of turns you'd give him. For Jace, he starts the whole thing from
beginning.

EDIT: You're telling me this now? God I hate you so much even while you have sexy voice.
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Postby Haiiro Sedai » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:08 am

Aetherling is great and all but weak to aggressive strats. I predict uw to lean harder on Elspeth because of it.

The question of izzet control is if it is better than uw or ub. I personally don't think so. You have no life gain at all. I have seen uw resolve multiple revs and still get low or just dead against a good red list. Even if you could draw more cards than chained revs you don't buy time with it life like rev does.

Frostburn will be either main or side in any izzet list. I think yoked ox proves that.

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Postby Yarpus » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:18 am

Well, Izzet has it's advantages.
1. It has even better matchup against Aggro. Flexxible and instant-speed removal like Lightning Strike and Magma Jet. And what matters at most, Anger of the Gods. I'd say if UW might be 60-40 against Aggro, Izzet pushes that to 70-30 as the only way Aggro can really threaten Izzet is burn. We have no lifegain, but we deal with creatures in much, much better way than UW does. Don't forget Izzet Staticaster!
2. It has the STOP move against Control in terms of big spells. I don't really care that you have Negate to back up your Sphinx's Revelation or Aetherling. After SB if I'm saying it's not gonna resolve - it just doesn't thanks to Counterflux. We also have maindeckable Izzet Charm. Card versatile enough tgo actually matter. Controls can't afford playing maindeck Negates due to RDW at it's rise. Izzet Charm both kills any card playable at RDW and is capable of countering Jace, AoT.

nI agree Izzet's matchup against midrange is below average, but at the moment we don't expect great things from most of midrange decks (I mean GR/Naya Midrange mostly). While UB still hurts due to hand disruption, I'd say UW is fairly good matchup. We have a chance to sneak in Steam Augury or Opportunity, they have much more problem at resolving Revelation.
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Postby Alex » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:19 am

Ok, Alex does have a sexy voice.

Didn't know that hammer was 5 bucks. Value.
I just went back and started listening to the recording. I sound like a downsy, or at least I think so. :shrug:

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Postby hamfactorial » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:22 am

Hammer is up to 5? Boom! My specs are on fire.

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Postby Yarpus » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:26 am

Also, sorry I had to do this. It's not what I wish I'm gonna play - but Counterburn Tempo.

[deck]Creatures:
4 Spellheart Chimera
4 Nivix Cyclops

Planeswalkers:
4 Ral Zarek

Instants and Sorceries:
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Izzet Charm
4 Essence Scatter
4 Turn // Burn
4 Steam Augury

Lands:
4 Steam Vents
4 Izzet Guildgate
8 Island
8 Mountain[/deck]
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Postby Alex » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:35 am

Also, sorry I had to do this. It's not what I wish I'm gonna play - but Counterburn Tempo.

[deck]Creatures:
4 Spellheart Chimera
4 Nivix Cyclops

Planeswalkers:
4 Ral Zarek

Instants and Sorceries:
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Izzet Charm
4 Essence Scatter
4 Turn // Burn
4 Steam Augury

Lands:
4 Steam Vents
4 Izzet Guildgate
8 Island
8 Mountain[/deck]
That Ral Zarek is supposed to be Chandra, Pyromaster.

Right?

Right.

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Postby Haiiro Sedai » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:38 am

Well, Izzet has it's advantages.
1. It has even better matchup against Aggro. Flexxible and instant-speed removal like Lightning Strike and Magma Jet. And what matters at most, Anger of the Gods. I'd say if UW might be 60-40 against Aggro, Izzet pushes that to 70-30 as the only way Aggro can really threaten Izzet is burn. We have no lifegain, but we deal with creatures in much, much better way than UW does. Don't forget Izzet Staticaster!
2. It has the STOP move against Control in terms of big spells. I don't really care that you have Negate to back up your Sphinx's Revelation or Aetherling. After SB if I'm saying it's not gonna resolve - it just doesn't thanks to Counterflux. We also have maindeckable Izzet Charm. Card versatile enough tgo actually matter.
Controls can't afford playing maindeck Negates due to RDW at it's rise. Izzet Charm both kills any card playable at RDW and is capable of countering Jace, AoT.

I agree Izzet's matchup against midrange is below average, but at the moment we don't expect great things from most of midrange decks (I mean GR/Naya Midrange mostly). While UB still hurts due to hand disruption, I'd say UW is fairly good matchup. We have a chance to sneak in Steam Augury or Opportunity, they have much more problem at resolving Revelation.

As the meta stands I think you are right but I think soon we will see a shift to more green in aggro to beat other aggressive decks. States will probably be similar to worchester at least aroundwwhere I am but I don't think it will last.

Also I think you are wrong about uw v aggro, I think it is a better mu for Azoriusthan you are giving it credit for. It is quite telling that it got 2nd as a pure control deck with zero hard meta information

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Postby Yarpus » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:41 am

That Ral Zarek is supposed to be Chandra, Pyromaster.

Right?

Right.
I could discuss Zarek vs Jace in this deck. But Chandra? Are you serious? I mean... you know how her 0 interacts with cunterspells?
Also I think you are wrong about uw v aggro, I think it is a better mu for Azoriusthan you are giving it credit for. It is quite telling that it got 2nd as a pure control deck with zero hard meta information
They can sweep the board with 4 mana on the board. UR can sweep with 3 mana.
They can put a creature on topdeck for 2 mana. UR can kill it instead... and Scry 2.
You know, that's the difference.
As the meta stands I think you are right but I think soon we will see a shift to more green in aggro to beat other aggressive decks. States will probably be similar to worchester at least aroundwwhere I am but I don't think it will last.[/
quote]
Mono Green has no way to play around wraths. They don't have the tempo. They have big dumb creatures that fold to UW.
GW is too greedy in terms of manabase to be playable. I was one of the very few advocates of GW here, but got proved that it's not gonna be a deck for a while.
GR... it actually lacks of good targets to ramp into. The best thing you can ramp into is probably Green Garruk. He's THE shit on the block. On the other hand, creatures just don't feel powerfull at all. There are no Titans or Avenger of Zendikar - we're talking about Stormbreath Dragon and Kalonian Hydra. Both have their issues, vulnerabilities and don't provide enough of value when ETB to be worth ramping into.
There's also Ruric Thar, but he severly limits your deckbuilding.
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Postby Alex » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:46 am

You board her out vs. matchups where you would board in Counterflux. Every other spell that she can flip you will want to cast during your first main phase.

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Postby Yarpus » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:47 am

Essence Scatter and Izzet Charm in one/two most relevant modes dare to disagree.
Also, Zarek does some good job here. As you've talked on stream, Vigiliance matters. He gives your creatures some kind of vigiliance. And repetable bolts.
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Postby Alex » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:51 am

Essence Scatter and Izzet Charm in one/two most relevant modes dare to disagree.
Also, Zarek does some good job here. As you've talked on stream, Vigiliance matters. He gives your creatures some kind of vigiliance. And repetable bolts.
Chandra's a repeatable falter, which is just as good when on the beatdown. It's also a plus ability instead of a minus ability.

I'm clearly not going to convince you that Ral Zarek is not a good card, so I'd urge you to play with it and see for yourself.

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Postby zemanjaski » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:53 am

UW did well at the SCG because the field was:
- mostly midrange and control, not aggro
- he's Max Tietze
Control performed about average, given it's representation. Midrange underperformance and red aggro over performed.

UW vs Rx is very slightly red favoured in my testing, but either deck can pre-board if its expecting the other to get a big advantage.
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Postby zemanjaski » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:54 am

Ral Zarek fucking sucks.
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Postby Yarpus » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:55 am

Sorry, I could consider Jace over him as he draws you some cards. But Chandra? Hell naw'. She's bonkers for anything that doesn't play counterspells. But when you actually plan to be fully reactive, she's loosing her shit as most redheads do.
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Postby windstrider » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:56 am

Ah, lovely.

I was just informed that the house my wife owns in KC was broken into again. The guy we had fixing it up said that all the wiring he put in was ripped out, the metal pipes are mostly gone, the metal bathtub was overturned, and even the doorknobs were taken. He's going to secure the place as best he can, take some things like the stained glass windows we had installed, and then leave it.

Fuck it. We've been trying to sell the stupid thing for two years. That neighborhood has gone downhill fast. I wouldn't go there now unless I was armed. Foreclosure it is.
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Postby dpaine88 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:01 am

Things Alex and I agreed on last night:
- Firedrinker Satyr is a good card
- Chandra is good vs. control
- Reckoner is great vs. midrange but we're expecting a lot of esper control for States, which is his worst matchup
- Hammer of Purphorous is OP
- there is no reason to play Gruul Aggro now, so BTE is bad. GCR is still beast though.
- Rakdos aggro is actually good
- there aren't any good midrange decks, due to a lack of good mana (dega) or irrelevant cards to play (GR)
- cards you need to be mindful of: supreme verdict, Sphinx's Rev, doom blade, Rakdos Cackler, anger of the gods.

Why does green have to be good for BTE to be viable? Ghor House, Firefist and Magma Jet all seem like fine red targets...or any 1 drops worst case
Burn baby burn!

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Postby Yarpus » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:06 am

I think it's mostly about SB choices which aren't too big. Splash is not worth it. You don't get quality removal actually as you'd do in terms of splashing White or Black.
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Postby dpaine88 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:07 am

I may have asked earlier but you guys post so much..

How is the mana THAT bad in G/W? Can't you do 8 Forest, 8 Plains, 4 Temple Garden, 4 Sel GG?

Doesn't seem that bad to me, especially without one drops
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Postby Yarpus » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:09 am

It's greedy. You really want 1-drops, Voice or Fleecemane Lion, Loxodon Smiter aand friggin Advent Wurm. If you don't... why in the hell would you play it?
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Postby Haiiro Sedai » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:09 am

They can sweep the board with 4 mana on the board. UR can sweep with 3 mana.
They can put a creature on topdeck for 2 mana. UR can kill it instead... and Scry 2.
You know, that's the difference.

Have you read Sphinx's Revelation? Izzet Control doesn't have a single card in any list that says "red can't win anymore" Aetherling doesn't do it, Chimera doesn't do it, opportunity doesn't do it. Also, Azorius Charm is one of the best removal spells in standard it hits everything but BBoV and Dragon. Sure they draw it again next turn but it's still a 1-1 trade that lets UW survive a turn and the longer the game goes so does the chances UW wins. UR may be better than UW against weenie aggro, and I'm not convinced it is, but I believe the matchup against aggro is better than 60-40. The only reason U/W didn't win in Worcester is because he was mana screwed two games in a
row with a 2 color deck w/ a solid mana base and card draw. You can't just count on that to happen to win.

Mono Green has no way to play around wraths. They don't have the tempo. They have big dumb creatures that fold to UW.
GW is too greedy in terms of manabase to be playable. I was one of the very few advocates of GW here, but got proved that it's not gonna be a deck for a while.
GR... it actually lacks of good targets to ramp into. The best thing you can ramp into is probably Green Garruk. He's THE shit on the block. On the other hand, creatures just don't feel powerfull at all. There are no Titans or Avenger of Zendikar - we're talking about Stormbreath Dragon and Kalonian Hydra. Both have their issues, vulnerabilities and don't provide enough of value when ETB to be worth ramping into.
There's also Ruric Thar, but he severly limits your deckbuilding.
You play around wraths by not committing. It's easier to do with green because Architect doesn't hit
your creatures as hard because you aren't swinging with a bunch of 2/x's you're swinging with 3/x's and 4/x's.
I disagree that GW is too greedy, I think the build may not be obvious but it will be a player, the cards it has are just too strong.
GR doesn't have to be ramp. You can just take mono red, add in some stomping grounds and overgrown tombs and GCR people all day. Maybe mix in a couple Domri and some other fat (Poluk is good) and you're already an aggressive deck that has a better mu against other red weenie decks.
GB may be a thing again. Desecration Demon is still a card, I'm not hopeful about that though.

The meta will shift. The better RDW gets the more likely you are going to run into slightly larger aggro decks that pray on RDW. Then midrange decks that prey on the slightly larger aggro decks, then RDW will go under the midrange. All the while control decks will be adapting their answers as the meta shifts. During this cycle UR will only be good as long as it can reliably
kill the other creatures. UR can't even kill Ember Swallower without Turn//Burn or 2-1ing itself.

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Postby dpaine88 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:11 am

It's greedy. You really want 1-drops, Voice or Fleecemane Lion, Loxodon Smiter aand friggin Advent Wurm. If you don't... why in the hell would you play it?
I suppose, you still have 12 turn 1 green sources and 12 turn 1 white sources.

Least the versions I played, not many 1 drops and topped off at Archangel of Thune.
Burn baby burn!

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Postby Helios » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:11 am

Have you read Sphinx's Revelation? Izzet Control doesn't have a single card in any list that says "red can't win anymore"
Have you watched us beat Sphinx's Revelation since the card was printed? It's a damn good thing UW doesn't have a card that says "red can't win anymore" either. We've all won games through multiple Revelations.
Mono Green has no way to play around wraths. They don't have the tempo. They have big dumb creatures that fold to UW.
That is totally incorrect. How is Experiment One + Kalonian Tusker any less of a threat than Cackler / Zealot?
Green plays around wraths the same way red does- two threats at a time.

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Postby Yarpus » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:18 am

a) Owner of the Cackler/Zealot has Lightning Spear in his hand. I mean, he at least gets the possibility of that.
b) Actually.
T1 Cackler
T2 Zealot, Swing for 4
T3 Swing for 4
Overall: 8

T1 Experiment One
T2 Tusker, Swing for 2
T3 Swing for 5
Overall: 7
c) Without another card, Cackler is still 2/2. Without another card, Experiment One is 1/1 for 1.

I am not telling you those cards are bad! I love me some Experiment Ones and Tuskers. I actually consider both of them to be strong. But you can't neglect the fact, that Red decks are actually better at putting an early pressure. Especialy if you'd consider tempo cards into account.
And I actually consider Mono Green Beats to become a part of the meta sooner or later. But it's still filled with big, dumb creatures. That's all. I actually like green god in Mono Green as it gives semi-evasion to all the big guys like Tuskers and Deadbridge/Polukranos.
Last edited by Yarpus on Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Helios » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:20 am

We can all speculate, but I've played those games. I've watched green fight through me casting 3 Supreme Verdicts, every one of them a 2-for-1 or better.

RE: Your post- Sure, let's take a game totally out of context. Let's forget that Experiment One can regenerate. Let's not talk about Mistcutter Hydra, a card that blue decks have extremely few answers for. Nowhere did I say that red can't race green- I was pointing out that you're assertion that green can't fight through wraths is, at best, completely wrong.
Last edited by Helios on Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Haiiro Sedai » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:21 am

Have you watched us beat Sphinx's Revelation since the card was printed? It's a damn good thing UW doesn't have a card that says "red can't win anymore" either. We've all won games through multiple Revelations.
No, I haven't. I have watched many a tournament and match in the past season and haven't seen red win reliably through 2-3 revelations. If you are exceptionally skilled red players going against mediocre or bad UW players then awesome :smileup: :smileup: but I just don't see any RDW variant beating an end step Rev for 5 or 6 with anything close to being called reliable. Yes that is 8-9 mana which means you've gone later than you expect to win but the point is
even at turns 11-12-13 UR control doesn't have a way to absolutely seal the deal against RDW. If you get them to 0 cards and a clear board at turn 6 and you're at 5 life then you have to be on your toes the entire match still. they can wait, and wait and wait until they go EOT, burn, Eot burn, eot burn, untap haste creature and you can still die. UW doesn't. If a UW deck gets you in the same position a large revelation will just make it so you cannot win.

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Postby Helios » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:26 am

Go look at the SCG results then. Clearly red can't beat a revelation deck....

Consider, also, that the cards that allowed 9 mana revelations are gone. UW no longer has Snapcaster, Resto, and Augur of Bolas. Those were the real problem cards.
Last edited by Helios on Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Yarpus » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:27 am

Huh. I was often playing against guy who was in the semifinals of FNM Championships (yes, the big, international ones). He played Bant, I was either Sledgehammer Red or RDW. And most of the time I won.
Had this game when he resolved 3 Thragtusks, blinked them twice AND resolved 2 revelations. Still won by stealing his Jace with ult ready (he admitted the mistake after - didn't expected anyone to play Zealous Conscripts), taking his last Thragtusk and my Thundermaw, doing some beating. He wrath'd. I get the token at least. Casting Stonewright and starting to grind him for ten life per turn. So really, we were/are/going to be capable of doing stuff like that.
There's no bant anymore. People don't resolve Revelation for 10. They do for 3. 3 life, 3 cards. And hey, don't call that unbeatable please. <laugh>

The most unbeatable thing that control has is Aetherling. It resolves => it's gonna grind you down and it'
s impossible to get rid of it. That's what I call inevitability. But to cast him and kill, UW actually needs to control the board state. And it's not that easy these days.
Elspeth is also annoying but there are ways already. Legion Loyalist is the best example here, he allows you to have that alpha strike onto it.
Jace is a bit more annoying than he was before as we don't have that good creature pumps as we did in INN-RTR. That's why good Red Decks start to pack more burn and Young Pyromancers. While YP is not impressive against Jace at all, you can burn his face off and still have the value in form of tokens.
Last edited by Yarpus on Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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