W/U Beats

[BigMana]

Y'all need something other than red.

[deck=W/U Beats]  
Land
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Azorius Guildgate
7 Plains
5 Island

Creatures
4 Boros Elite
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Azorius Arrester
4 Precinct Captain
4 Lyev Skyknight
3 Imposing Sovereign

Spells
4 Brave the Elements
4 Inaction Injunction
3 Voyage's End

Enchantments
2 Spear of Heliod

Sideboard
4 Keening Apparition
4 Detention Sphere
3 Gideon, Champion of Justice
3 Frost Breath
[/deck]

Built to get around slow aggro decks. Land base needs work, need more vs control.

Drop Spears and a spell for Cavalry Pegasus? Or Heliod.

[DroppinSuga]

If it doesn't cast for Mountains, it's unplayable.

[redthirst]

Not very Tempo-y, seems like a regular UW Aggro deck with a single tempo play.

That said, I don't hate it. It looks like it could do work against those durdly Midrange decks that rely on putting up a single roadblock to get them to the late game.

[BigMana]

Not very Tempo-y, seems like a regular UW Aggro deck with a single tempo play.

That said, I don't hate it. It looks like it could do work against those durdly Midrange decks that rely on putting up a single roadblock to get them to the late game.

I think tempo means more than just bounce, am I wrong?

[redthirst]

The difference between Aggro and Tempo is that Aggro tries to be as fast as possible to win before the opponent can get going while Tempo tries to slow the opponent down enough to do the same.

That's generally done with stuff like bounce spells.

They're related and have the same goal, but they go about it different ways - historically Tempo decks tend to just drop one or two early threats and then spend the rest of the game hindering the opponent so they can't stabilize.

The reason I say your list is Aggro is because it looks like it just wants to drop a bunch of dudes quickly and then use a few spells as a sort of pseudo-evasion to push through damage in the midgame.

[DerWille]

Y'all need something other than red.

[deck=W/U Tempo]  
Land
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Azorius Guildgate
7 Plains
5 Island

Creatures
4 Boros Elite
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Azorius Arrester
4 Precinct Captain
4 Lyev Skyknight
3 Imposing Sovereign

Spells
4 Brave the Elements
4 Inaction Injunction
3 Voyage's End

Enchantments
2 Spear of Heliod

Sideboard
4 Keening Apparition
4 Detention Sphere
3 Gideon, Champion of Justice
3 Frost Breath
[/deck]

Built to get around slow aggro decks. Land base needs work, need more vs control.

Drop Spears and a spell for Cavalry Pegasus? Or Heliod.

I'm not too sure on what makes tempo or aggro or whatever, but I'm thinking some
number of Banisher Priest would make this deck's life easier.

Also, a bit different than what you've got going on, but the Ajani + Gideon combo could be a good finisher for this deck.

Finally, Fiendslayer Paladin is probably worth while. It dodges common removal, gains you life, and could work as a secondary Ajani buddy, (start dropping counters on it while keeping Brave the Elements up).

[BigMana]

Y'all need something other than red.

[deck=W/U Tempo]  
Land
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Azorius Guildgate
7 Plains
5 Island

Creatures
4 Boros Elite
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Azorius Arrester
4 Precinct Captain
4 Lyev Skyknight
3 Imposing Sovereign

Spells
4 Brave the Elements
4 Inaction Injunction
3 Voyage's End

Enchantments
2 Spear of Heliod

Sideboard
4 Keening Apparition
4 Detention Sphere
3 Gideon, Champion of Justice
3 Frost Breath
[/deck]

Built to get around slow aggro decks. Land base needs work, need more vs control.

Drop Spears and a spell for
Cavalry Pegasus? Or Heliod.

I'm not too sure on what makes tempo or aggro or whatever, but I'm thinking some number of Banisher Priest would make this deck's life easier.

Also, a bit different than what you've got going on, but the Ajani + Gideon combo could be a good finisher for this deck.

Finally, Fiendslayer Paladin is probably worth while. It dodges common removal, gains you life, and could work as a secondary Ajani buddy, (start dropping counters on it while keeping Brave the Elements up).

I'm afraid of getting the curve too high. I really want this to play like fish. Maybe not.

The side needs Dispel I feel. And I'm pretty sure I'll sub 2 Jump Horse for the spears.

[Alex]

Okay, since everyone else is too scared to say it for some reason, I'll be that guy.

This is not a tempo deck whatsoever. It's actually very likely not even a playable deck. Here's a list of reasons why.

1.) Having unsummons does not make for tempo. You need sources of hard removal or counter magic to accompany unsummon sources in order for tempo to really work. The countermagic of this day and age is costed too conservatively to be played in a tempo list, and the unsummons are even worse.
2.) Playing a bunch of creatures isn't tempo, it's aggro. Delver played 8 creatures in the whole list, and it was a real tempo deck. Why? Because that guy was literally unkillable and unblockable due to the sheer volume of removal the deck could play around it. The same goes for the UB control decks in Modern that play Wydwen, the Biting Gale as their win condition. Since Wydwen can literally
never die, you can simply remove every threat your opponent plays and keep slamming her into their face until they are dead.
3.) Your guy having flying isn't good enough. Flying is nice but what do you do when they play a bigger flying creature? Lose? You have no way of removing it, and stalling it out with Inaction Injunction is pretty much the equivalent of doing nothing unless you are going to kill them because of it. (Which you likely won't since this deck has no way to apply constant pressure nor protect its threat.)
4.) At what point do you think you'll be able to beat a control deck? Tempo could beat control by keeping it off of plays until turn 5ish, at which point the control player was probably dead. You have nothing against control. What is your plan once those decks start to surface?


I don't think there is anything to a gigantic list of weenies. Brave the Elements is good but it can't carry an entire list on its own.
Weenies need anthems or combat tricks to ever have a shot.

[DerWille]

I'm afraid of getting the curve too high. I really want this to play like fish. Maybe not.

The side needs Dispel I feel. And I'm pretty sure I'll sub 2 Jump Horse for the spears.

I wouldn't worry about curving out at 3 with white. The color's best creatures are at 3. Up the land count to 22 or a bit more and it won't be too much of a problem.

Listen to
Alex. His suggestions drastically improved the Boros deck I used last season.

[BigMana]

Okay, since everyone else is too scared to say it for some reason, I'll be that guy.

This is not a tempo deck whatsoever. It's actually very likely not even a playable deck. Here's a list of reasons why.

1.) Having unsummons does not make for tempo. You need sources of hard removal or counter magic to accompany unsummon sources in order for tempo to really work. The countermagic of this day and age is costed too conservatively to be played in a tempo list, and the unsummons are even worse.
2.) Playing a bunch of creatures isn't tempo, it's aggro. Delver played 8 creatures in the whole list, and it was a real tempo deck. Why? Because that guy was literally unkillable and unblockable due to the sheer volume of removal the deck could play around it. The
same goes for the UB control decks in Modern that play Wydwen, the Biting Gale as their win condition. Since Wydwen can literally never die, you can simply remove every threat your opponent plays and keep slamming her into their face until they are dead.
3.) Your guy having flying isn't good enough. Flying is nice but what do you do when they play a bigger flying creature? Lose? You have no way of removing it, and stalling it out with Inaction Injunction is pretty much the equivalent of doing nothing unless you are going to kill them because of it. (Which you likely won't since this deck has no way to apply constant pressure nor protect its threat.)
4.) At what point do you think you'll be able to beat a control deck? Tempo could beat control by keeping it off of plays until turn 5ish, at which point the control player was probably dead. You have nothing against control. What is your plan once those decks start to surface?


I don'
t think there is anything to a gigantic list of weenies. Brave the Elements is good but it can't carry an entire list on its own. Weenies need anthems or combat tricks to ever have a shot.

1/2.) So the name is off, my bad. Still recoving from a break that started during Morningtide, I learned the name wrong.
3.) There arent too many decks I see brewing running mass flyers at all, do you? The detain cards are all attached to beaters or cycle, they break through defenses when jump horse isn't around or delay the opposing aggro deck's gameplan all without putting me at any loss for doing so. Also, 27 dudes can easily pressure midrange decks who play less and or slower threats, especially when you can quickly disable or bounce their superior creatures. Playing a lot of cheap efficient guys allows me to let a dude get eaten by removal or a blocker, I don't have to ensure that they will all survive every turn, red can't do this either. BtE is just icing on
the cake as it can keep me powering through removal and red sweepers, all other sweepers can slow down any aggro deck, but I don't suck so I know how to play around them. BtE also can win the game through blockers.
4.) I don't expect to see many good control builds. Between raped land bases and blue losing most of its best card draw and selection, I feel through the testing I've played that the first game can be rocky and fightable after.

I would really like to hear thoughs on Spear of Heliod vs. Cavalry Pegasus

[zemanjaski]

My biggest concern is that this is almost purely a linear aggro deck, albeit with some nice tricks (brave the elements and inaction injunction). Historically these decks aren't very good:
- no mana sinks
- weak to wraths because you need multiple guys out to present a real clock
- no reach
- low card quality

These factors coalesce into a deck that runs very hot or very cold. It also means that if someone wants to best you, they will. That's not ne essarily a problem while the deck is fringe, but at the start of the season you'll be super weak to splashed hate for RDW. I can't see this deck ever beating a resolved Chandra if you're not immediately winning the next turn for example.

Compare this selection of cards to the last time this deck was good (nearly 2 years ago), when the deck had:
- champion of the parish
- Geist of st traft
- hero of bladehold
- moorland haunt

Geist and Hero just operate on a
substantially higher power level, helping mitigate wraths. They're also hard to deal with threats. Moorland Haunt gives more wrath protection and some amount if reach. The current card pool offers none if these features. This makes you closer to an AIR with less explosiveness and no reach ~ you don't have a usual turn 4 kill, which is super important. You're creatures are better, but type 2 isn't defined by creature combat in most matchups. Midrange and Contril don't care if you're a 2/1 or a 2/2 first strike vigilance really; they only see the 2 power. So the cards you're playing need to offer something to compensate for the explosiveness of red cards or the efficiency of green cards and I don't feel they do.

The other issue is that without any reach, itheres no difference between your opponent at 1 and your opponent at 20; bring as to leverage life to card is very important in aggro and this deck doesn't do a good of it.

Heaven help you if your opponent has access to even Flames of the
Firebrand.

I think both Spear of Heliod and Heliod himself are worth looking at. I don't know if the blue splash does much, given that going white gives you Mutavault (3/3 with spear!) and makes it pretty easy to turn Heliod on.

[Alex]

Okay, since everyone else is too scared to say it for some reason, I'll be that guy.

This is not a tempo deck whatsoever. It's actually very likely not even a playable deck. Here's a list of reasons why.

1.) Having unsummons does not make for tempo. You need sources of hard removal or counter magic to accompany unsummon sources in order for tempo to really work. The countermagic of this day and age is costed too conservatively to be played in a tempo list, and the unsummons are even worse.
2.) Playing a bunch of creatures isn't tempo, it's aggro. Delver played 8 creatures in the whole list, and it
was a real tempo deck. Why? Because that guy was literally unkillable and unblockable due to the sheer volume of removal the deck could play around it. The same goes for the UB control decks in Modern that play Wydwen, the Biting Gale as their win condition. Since Wydwen can literally never die, you can simply remove every threat your opponent plays and keep slamming her into their face until they are dead.
3.) Your guy having flying isn't good enough. Flying is nice but what do you do when they play a bigger flying creature? Lose? You have no way of removing it, and stalling it out with Inaction Injunction is pretty much the equivalent of doing nothing unless you are going to kill them because of it. (Which you likely won't since this deck has no way to apply constant pressure nor protect its threat.)
4.) At what point do you think you'll be able to beat a control deck? Tempo could beat control by keeping it off of plays until turn
5ish, at which point the control player was probably dead. You have nothing against control. What is your plan once those decks start to surface?


I don't think there is anything to a gigantic list of weenies. Brave the Elements is good but it can't carry an entire list on its own. Weenies need anthems or combat tricks to ever have a shot.

1/2.) So the name is off, my bad. Still recoving from a break that started during Morningtide, I learned the name wrong.
3.) There arent too many decks I see brewing running mass flyers at all, do you? The detain cards are all attached to beaters or cycle, they break through defenses when jump horse isn't around or delay the opposing aggro deck's gameplan all without putting me at any loss for doing so. Also, 27 dudes can easily pressure midrange decks who play less and or slower threats, especially when you can quickly disable or bounce their superior creatures. Playing a lot of cheap efficient guys allows me
to let a dude get eaten by removal or a blocker, I don't have to ensure that they will all survive every turn, red can't do this either. BtE is just icing on the cake as it can keep me powering through removal and red sweepers, all other sweepers can slow down any aggro deck, but I don't suck so I know how to play around them. BtE also can win the game through blockers.
4.) I don't expect to see many good control builds. Between raped land bases and blue losing most of its best card draw and selection, I feel through the testing I've played that the first game can be rocky and fightable after.

I would really like to hear thoughs on Spear of Heliod vs. Cavalry Pegasus

Okay, so you expect to play lots of dudes on curve while also playing "disruption?" You clearly haven't grasped the basics of deckbuilding from a fundamental level if you think that these two things are not mutually exclusive. What you have here
is literally the worst of both worlds. It doesn't have any of the reach of a red based aggro deck (direct damage, haste, actual removal) but also manages to somehow not play to the best qualities of blue and white either. (Guys with huge asses that block well, countermagic, evasion.)

Here's a list of cards that your deck has no actual way to beat:
Scavenging Ooze.
Stormbreath Dragon.
Supreme Verdict.
Hammer of Purphoros.
Unflinching Courage.
Mizzium Mortars.
Electrickery.


There are literally only four creatures in your entire deck that can survive an Electrickery. If you don't see a fundamental problem with this, you still have a lot of reading to do before you start posting brews and expecting positive feedback.

I'm really not trying to be rude, but if you think you've got something here I'm sorry to inform you that you very likely don't.

[BigMana]

You make it sound as if any of these cards halt the build completely, they don't. It's not hard to play around them or respond.

I never implied that this was much more than a deck that warrants testing. It's far from my pet deck. I get it, you don't like it. But don't imply that it isn't worth improving on.

[Alex]

You make it sound as if any of these cards halt the build completely, they don't. It's not hard to play around them or respond.

I never implied that this was much more than a deck that warrants testing. It's far from my pet deck. I get it, you don't like it. But don't imply that it isn't worth improving on.

You don't play around board wipes in a deck like this, especially when the crux of your plan is "Kill them before they do anything relevant."

Especially when that board wipe doesn't even necessarily cost 4 mana, and can be played at instant speed.

[BigMana]

You make it sound as if any of these cards halt the build completely, they don't. It's not hard to play around them or respond.

I never implied that this was much more than a deck that warrants testing. It's far from my pet deck. I get it, you don't like it. But don't imply that it isn't worth improving on.

You don't play around board wipes in a deck like this, especially when the crux of your plan is "Kill them before they do anything relevant."

Especially when that board wipe doesn't even necessarily cost 4 mana, and can be played at instant speed.

I
don't know alex, it's been winning so far. If the meta here becomes anything but big dumb aggro, then I'd obviously choose otherwise.

[zemanjaski]

I think if there's a lot of three colour midrange or control, this is ok. I imagine its good against GW on the play?

It's basically my wet dream as a red player honestly.

[Alex]

This deck isn't even good against "dumb aggro," so I highly question the quality of not only your local players but the validity of that statement.

[BigMana]

I think if there's a lot of three colour midrange or control, this is ok. I imagine its good against GW on the play?

It's basically my wet dream as a red player honestly.

Basically this. Trying to brew something until the meta lets red fit.

[Alex]

I think if there's a lot of three colour midrange or control, this is ok. I imagine its good against GW on the play?

It's basically my wet dream as a red player honestly.

GW plays better quality creatures. It also has access to Unflinching Courage.